Might have bumped the shoulder too far?

[The Outlaw]

I've always set my dies per manufacturers directions with good results but recently I got a new hornady lock and load AP and decided to resize my 556 brass in that and I noticed the handle felt a little different but thought it was just because it was a progressive press and I was used to a single stage press and kept going and full-length sized almost 2000 pieces of brass.

A few days later it hit me that maybe the handle was a little harder to pull because I screwed the die in too far. I'm praying I didn't just ruin 2000 pieces of Lake City brass. I'm hoping to get the RCBS precision Mic sets for 308 and 223 but can't quite afford them right yet yet. Is there a simple cheap way to verify whether or not I did bump the shoulder back to far or not for now? And if I did is there anything I can do about it or just suck it up and replace the brass?

[1100 tac]

Wilson case gauge.

I used a set of Hornady Dies set up according to instructions to size a bunch of 5.56 cases one time,and loaded 'em all up, imagine my surprise after receiving a Wilson gauge and discovering that they all dropped about .020 too far in.

I don't use Hornady dies any more, I use Forster with Redding shellholder sets,and I have more than one way to check shoulder bump.

2000 L.C. cases, you're on the prayer list...

[mehavey]

The brass cannot be resized under SAAMI specs no matter how hard the handle is to pull.
The [normal] die itself determines/is set to that minimum dimension.

All you've done is produce commercial-spec/SAAMI min cases.

[condor bravo]

Per post #3, it's not likely that the shoulder has been pushed back too far. Normally, during shoulder push back, it is because the case length has increased during sizing and requiring some push back to restore to normal length for proper chambering. At the most, the shoulders could have been pushed back slightly more than necessary but still within limits, but not pushed back too much. Most prefer some shoulder clearance, especially with semis as is often necessary, while others like the slight shoulder to shoulder contact with bolt guns, but the latter is difficult to achieve consistently during sizing. So I wouldn't worry about the 2000 sized in the new press. Other than without something like the Wilson case gauge, I don't have a good method for determining possible excessive shoulder set back. If I were to try something, it would be to apply a thick layer of powdered graphite around the shoulder, or a thick layer with a marking pen, then chamber the case and extract. If the shoulder area comes out smudged, sizing should be good. If untouched, then possibly excessive clearance.

[243winxb]

Measure a fired case using factory ammo as a base line. Bump the shoulder back .003" to .005" when FL sizing. Make a homemade comparator. Check your fired brass or your loaded ammo. Compare. The 223 case has to be square on both ends. The end touching the shoulder is beveled with a chamfering tool. The stick is to keep the caliber up off the primer & to keep the brass in alignment. Dont measure on the primer. When you get repeatable measurement within .001" you will know you made it correctly. Put an index mark on the modified brass, place it in the same position for each measurement. Took about 1 hr to make & didnt have to wait for one to be shipped. Still using it today. For the 308 use a 40 S&W case. http://www.saami.org/specifications_...ex.cfm?page=CC Some shell plates will let the shoulder be pushed back to much. When the difference between chamber and sized brass is more than .010", it becomes a problem with case separations. Mostly in the middle of the body.

[243winxb]

This is to compare fired to sized brass.

[The Outlaw]

So load it light and use it as plinking ammo once and it should "reset" it's self off my chamber and be ready to be sized and headspaced properly?

[243winxb]

A light load can move the shoulder back, shorter head to datum, as the body expands outward. Use a normal full load. In fact, the firing pin strike of some 223 rifles will set the shouder back .006"

[cw308]

When F/L sizing your brass. Don't screw the die down to the shell holder, leave it up two full turns bring the case into the die check how far down the neck it sized, screw it down a little more until it sizes to the start of the shoulder. Try chambering the case in your rifle ,you will be in the ball park. I don't like to eyeball reloads but until you can get the RCBS Precision Mic give it a try. Remember to trim your brass to specs.

[The Outlaw]

Sorry 243 I replied after not reloading the page for quite a while and missed your posts. Wouldn't pushing the shoulders back further lower case capacity a little and raising pressure like seating a bullet deeper?

Between trying to figure this out and trying to learn more about more precise loading for long range I'm feeling more and more like a rookie again every day and I've been at it a few years...

[Longshot4]

If it were me to be on the safe side. I would order a Wilson gage from Midway and it will be there in a cople days. If the cases pass OK. It's a go. If they fail all you will have to do is call Midway and order up more cases.
Use the case gage it's a good way to go.

[243winxb]

case capacity - In the 223 there is 4% more volume in a fired case when compared to a factory round. I would not worry about it because the brass expands on firing.

[cw308]

Outlaw, seating the bullet deeper may not cause pressure problems , unless your at the top of the load range an your bullet is compressed. Jamming your bullet into the lands with a hot load can cause pressure problems. Seating your bullet beeper with a medium load, your bullet will have a jump to the lands you should be fine. Do you know what to look for in pressure signs?

[603Country]

The OP hasn't made any big mistakes. Load the 2000 cases and shoot em. As for setting the dies to match the chamber (less the desired bump), I 'd shoot a couple of the cases till they were snug in the chamber and then do the required bump, set the die and leave it alone from then on.

My point is that if you have a case that is NOT slightly snug in the chamber, how will you know how much bump is needed?

And, just to say it, there could be a potential problem in sizing a fired case as much as the die will allow. If your chamber is cut somewhat large, sizing all the die will do could lead to case head separation eventually. I've had that problem. And I've had the reverse, with a chamber cut so tight that the die barely sizes the case enough.

[F. Guffey]

Is there a simple cheap way to verify whether or not I did bump the shoulder back to far or not for now? And if I did is there anything I can do about it or just suck it up and replace the brass?

You do not know the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face. Single stage or progressive; does not matter. The die and shell holder has a maximum ability to return the case to minimum length. A reloader has a much a bigger chance of not being able to size the case than size it more than necessary.

The next time you fire a rifle for the first time measure the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head before firing and again after. The difference between the two lengths should indicate the effect the chamber had on the case.

I have receivers that by design do not allow the shoulder to move when fired. I have fired 8mm57 ammo in 8mm06 chambers. Reloaders call that .127” head space. I believe the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face was.127” longer than the case from the shoulder to the case head. Everyone believes .127” head will result in instant case head separation. One more time my; the shoulder on the 8mm57 case did not move.

A practical way to determine the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head is to learn to drill a hole. Problem for the 308 W; to get everything to agree the hole must be drilled to .400”. Because I have no infatuation with head space I use a drill bit with a .375” diameter. What difference does it make? None, you can understand you are using the hole as thought it was used on a comparator; measure before and again after.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

The brass cannot be resized under SAAMI specs no matter how hard the handle is to pull.
The [normal] die itself determines/is set to that minimum dimension.
All you've done is produce commercial-spec/SAAMI min cases.

You do not know and he does not know.

Mehavey, Most reloaders assume they are sizing the case to minimum length. There are relaoders that still believe they must match the die and shell holder with a manufacturer. A good place to start would be to measure the deck height of the shell holder; a good deck height for my shell holders is .125”. When reloaders have problems sizing I never assume they have been advised by the misguided. There are reloaders that grind the top of the shell holder to reduce the deck height, then there is the possibility the bottom of the die has been ground for the same reason.

Assuming the case has been sized when the ram is raised. Reloaders use the term bump to cover everything there is to know about sizing a case. I don’t; If the die is adjusted to the shell holder with the proverbial ¼ additional turn the press is set up to return the case to minimum length/full length sized. If the shell holder does not make it to the bottom of the die the case has not been sized back to minimum length.

Cases have the ability to have more resistance to sizing than the press can overcome. Point and question; I suggest the OP measure the gap between the top of the shell holder and bottom of the die to determine if the case won or the press, shell holder and die won, how could he do that? I use a feeler gage, some use light. I have instructions on how to use a light meter, then comes the big porblem, being able to afford one if I could find it.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

Outlaw, has anyone ask you what rifle you are firing your reloads through? I have receivers that allow me to fire ammo in them with the shoulder set back so far the shoulder on the case can not see the shoulder of the chamber. After firing I extract cases without a shoulder and neck, with other chambering I extract cases with a shoulder and a very short neck.

F. Guffey

[mehavey]

"... deck height of the shell holder; a good deck height for my shell holders is 0.125" ..."

That is the standard height of standard shell holder. Other than my specific Redding set of stepped `06 shellholders, I have never run across a difference -- with the notable exception of the 14'B' shell holder from Lyman for the 44-40.

There are reloaders that grind the top of the shell holder to reduce the
deck height, then there is the possibility the bottom of the die has been
ground for the same reason.

Given the tone/information from the OP, I somehow don't think he has ground anything to different dimensions.

[Nitescout]

I don`t think the OP has damaged his brass...he has stated that he is waiting on his RCBS Precision mic...That will tell if they are too short for his chamber...that being said, I too am a student of the 308 win...many will be surprised to learn that factory ammo in commercial .308 and military 7.62 x 51 are up to .020 to .025 shorter than spec...so they don`t have chambering issues. and yes I know he`s working with 223 / 5.56 but the issue remains the same. factory loaded ammo is usually way undersize so the manufacturer
doesn`t get a lot of complaints on chambering issues.

[F. Guffey]

The brass cannot be resized under SAAMI specs no matter how hard the handle is to pull.
The [normal] die itself determines/is set to that minimum dimension.
All you've done is produce commercial-spec/SAAMI min cases.

You need to call SAAMI, they do not have absolutes. I am the only one that does not allow that stuff to lock me up. I measure the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face in thousandths. I also measure the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head before and again after firing.

I do not assume he purchased new shell holders, he could have purchased his shell holders from EBay, he could have purchased his dies from EBay. Again, I measure the deck height of the shell holder and I determine if the die and shell holder has the ability to return the case to minimum length.

The [normal] die itself determines/is set to that minimum dimension.

SAAMI does not have ‘that minimum dimension’, SAAMI has +/- dimensions and it is not only the die involved in returning the case to minimum length; the shell holder is also involved in sizing. I understand it must be difficult to understand but when sizing there is the shoulder inside of the die and the deck of the shell holder. Something like measuring the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face.

When determining if a die has been ground I measure. I purchased a 6.5/284 die from EBAY, the die belonged to one of the misguided. The bottom of the die had been ground. It is most fortunate I became the owner. Just about any other reloader would require therapy before they figured out how to adjust the die.

F. Guffey

[Nitescout]

Mr. Guffey is correct...
It`s a good thing he ended up with the bad die...most reloaders would not have found the issue of the die being ground off.

grinding off the die to get a case to chamber in a tight gun has been a remedy for as long as dies have been made...I just don't understand why some people prefer to grind the die...removing the same amount of material from a dedicated shell holder will do the same thing.

[mehavey]

Did the OP [OUTLAW] say somewhere that he had modified/ground-off dies ?
I must have missed that.

postscript:

SAAMI does not have ‘that minimum dimension’, SAAMI has +/- dimensions

Hmmmmm..... I could have sworn the SAAMI drawing says the Headspace Spec is 1.634 (-0.007)"
(i.e., min headspace is 1.627") which is also produced when combined w/a standard shellholder against a standard sizing die.
http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC...Winchester.pdf


.

[Nitescout]

No, he did not... the point is, he believed he ruined 2000 rounds of good brass.

each rifle is chambered by a human being...or a machine that is controlled by a human being... maybe the operator had a hangover; or was just having a bad day...chamber reamers wear down after time ...sometimes they are not replaced or reground until they cut chambers that are too short...

maybe the operator`s mic needs recalibrated...whatever the reason, new guns with short chambers still make it out of the factory and into the hands of shooters...

It happens!!!the same thing can happen to dies... of the thousands and thousands of dies produced each year, some are going to leave the factory that are not perfect. if 99% are perfect, there are still quite a few that are not.

[mehavey]

But at this point we have absolutely no reason to believe that either the die or the shellholder was out of spec...
And if that's the case (no pun intended), the sized cases would not be out of spec.

No ?

[cw308]

The Redding competition shell holders set of 5 , makes setting .001 headspace with the standard RCBS F/L sizing just perfect for for me. Runout is also .001 & better. Seems pretty simple.