Sending a Firearm Back: Does Shadow Systems Need My Driver’s License According to the ATF?

TunnelRat · February 3, 2021, 02:12 PM

Hi all,
Over my years here I’ve sent a number of firearms back to the manufacturer. Not long ago I purchased a Shadow Systems MR920. It had some functional issues and after contacting the manufacturer they sent me a label. In the instructions they asked for a photocopy of my drivers license. I sent one in, but edited out my drivers license number and birth date because I didn’t think they would need that (my assumption was they mainly wanted the address). They since contacted me saying they need a completely unedited driver’s license in order to comply with ATF regulations.

I’m not a huge fan of sharing my information when not needed. I have never once had a manufacturer request this of me, including last year when I sent a firearm to CZ. Does anyone know if their claim is correct?

Thanks,
TR

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ligonierbill · February 3, 2021, 02:26 PM

I would check directly with ATF. We sometimes think of them as the bad guys, but they can actually be pretty helpful. Whether or not it's required by the ATF, someone receiving a firearm from you may want some verification of your identity and, specifically, your age. I suspect it is the manufacturer's requirement, not ATF's. Last time I sent a gun for repair, no copy of my DL was requested. In fact, I sent one to E. R. Shaw for a new barrel recently, no DL.

dogtown tom · February 3, 2021, 02:31 PM

Quote:

TunnelRat .....They since contacted me saying they need a completely unedited driver’s license in order to comply with ATF regulations.

I hate it when a gun dealer or manufacturer uses the "ATF requires it" and ATF doesn't do any such thing.
The ATF regulation that they are required to abide by is https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id..._1125&rgn=div8

Quote:

§478.125 Record of receipt and disposition.
(e) Firearms receipt and disposition by dealers. Each licensed dealer shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms. In addition, before commencing or continuing a firearms business, each licensed dealer shall inventory the firearms possessed for such business and shall record same in the record required by this paragraph. The record required by this paragraph shall be maintained in bound form under the format prescribed below. The purchase or other acquisition of a firearm shall, except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, be recorded not later than the close of the next business day following the date of such purchase or acquisition. The record shall show the date of receipt, the name and address or the name and license number of the person from whom received, the name of the manufacturer and importer (if any), the model, serial number, type, and the caliber or gauge of the firearm. The sale or other disposition of a firearm shall be recorded by the licensed dealer not later than 7 days following the date of such transaction. When such disposition is made to a nonlicensee, the firearms transaction record, Form 4473, obtained by the licensed dealer shall be retained, until the transaction is recorded, separate from the licensee's Form 4473 file and be readily available for inspection. When such disposition is made to a licensee, the commercial record of the transaction shall be retained, until the transaction is recorded, separate from other commercial documents maintained by the licensed dealer, and be readily available for inspection. The record shall show the date of the sale or other disposition of each firearm, the name and address of the person to whom the firearm is transferred, or the name and license number of the person to whom transferred if such person is a licensee, or the firearms transaction record, Form 4473, serial number if the licensed dealer transferring the firearm serially numbers the Forms 4473 and files them numerically. The format required for the record of receipt and disposition of firearms is as follows:

In short, ATF regs require only name and address because you are a nonlicensee. The "or name and license number of the person from whom received" means a licensee as there is no requirement for a person to even hold a drivers license to buy/sell/transfer a gun.

While federal law and ATF regulations permit a manufacturer to return a repaired or replacement firearm directly to the owner, more and more are not. It's possible Shadow Systems wants to be sure you are old enough to possess a firearm.

If their business policy is to require an unedited copy of your DL, then they are completely within their rights to ask for it. You of course can refuse and go elsewhere.

TunnelRat · February 3, 2021, 02:31 PM

Good point. I asked a friend that is a current FFL and he was unaware of the requirement for a photocopy of my license. Frankly I’ve had my personal information stolen before and it’s something I’m leery of.

If they had said, “It’s company policy”, I wouldn’t have been as intrigued. Saying it’s a requirement of the ATF has me more intrigued.

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TunnelRat · February 3, 2021, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogtown tom

I hate it when a gun dealer or manufacturer uses the "ATF requires it" and ATF doesn't do any such thing.
The ATF regulation that they are required to abide by is https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id..._1125&rgn=div8

In short, ATF regs require only name and address because you are a nonlicensee. The "or name and license number of the person from whom received" means a licensee as there is no requirement for a person to even hold a drivers license to buy/sell/transfer a gun.

If their business policy is to require an unedited copy of your DL, then they are completely within their rights to ask for it. You of course can refuse and go elsewhere.

Thank you for that.

In fairness to them this is something I should have clarified before sending the firearm in. My guess is if I want them to service the firearm I need to include this information. I just wish they’d say, “It’s our corporate policy”, rather than, “The ATF requires this”. It’s their choice to do this, and like you said I can either avail myself of their services or not.

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dogtown tom · February 3, 2021, 02:39 PM

Quote:

TunnelRat Good point. I asked a friend that is a current FFL and he was unaware of the requirement.

If he's unaware of that requirement he isn't going to be an FFL for long. The record of aquisitions and dispositions is equally as important to being an FFL as the Form 4473. ATF doesn't have that many regulations, he could read every single regulation regarding commerce in firearms in about an hour. He needs to do that.

Quote:

Since it’s not an actual firearms transfer I don’t get why they need my drivers license number.

It IS a firearm transfer.

TunnelRat · February 3, 2021, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogtown tom

If he's unaware of that requirement he isn't going to be an FFL for long. The record of aquisitions and dispositions is equally as important to being an FFL as the Form 4473. ATF doesn't have that many regulations, he could read every single regulation regarding commerce in firearms in about an hour. He needs to do that.

He was unaware of a firearms manufacturer needing my drivers license number in this particular case, as in he didn’t believe that was the case. You just stated they are not required by the ATF to have that number. How exactly was he wrong?

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dogtown tom · February 3, 2021, 08:11 PM

Quote:

How exactly was he wrong?

When you wrote:
" I asked a friend that is a current FFL and he was unaware of the requirement." it sounds like he was unaware of the only requirement that matters....ATF. And ATF spells out exactly what the requirement is.

TunnelRat · February 3, 2021, 08:14 PM

Okay that wasn't how I meant it, apologies for the confusion I caused.

TunnelRat · February 3, 2021, 08:26 PM

After asking Shadow Systems which ATF requirement meant they needed a full copy of my driver's license their compliance specialist told the service rep that the copy of the photo ID could be edited as long as it still showed my full name and address. I had edited out my middle name in addition to birth date and driver's license number. My guess is the compliance person saw it originally and asked the service rep for an unaltered version as it would be faster than the full explanation. Then the service rep thought only an unaltered copy of the ID would work. Regardless, it's all squared away.

KyJim · February 3, 2021, 08:57 PM

I have sent firearms back to Sig, Dan Wesson, and CZ. None have required a copy of my drivers license. It is my understanding there are some differences between manufacturers and non-manufacturers with FFLs. Don’t have time to research it now

JERRYS. · February 3, 2021, 10:12 PM

I've sent guns to the factory for repair and had them sent back directly to me.

what you describe is not an ATF regulation but a local business policy or an uninformed sales rep opinion.

shurshot · February 4, 2021, 06:12 AM

I have in recent years, shipped guns to Colt and Uberti for repairs. Neither one required my drivers license.

stinkeypete · February 4, 2021, 06:20 AM

In a recent transfer my ffl required the sender to send him a copy of his drivers license.

My ffl explained there is some scam where false people requested ffl information not to send a firearm but to get the ffl s information for some scam.

Whatever the reason, my ffl wanted to be sure everyone he was sending info to was a legit person.

This is all above my pay grade.

jr24 · February 4, 2021, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KyJim

I have sent firearms back to Sig, Dan Wesson, and CZ. None have required a copy of my drivers license. It is my understanding there are some differences between manufacturers and non-manufacturers with FFLs. Don’t have time to research it now

Same, twice to DW. Never did anything other than get a label from them and box it up. Same for the Remington trigger recall, that one went from and back too my door

rodfac · February 5, 2021, 07:36 AM

Yep...sent two guns back to S&W recently and no driver's license was required. Rod

**Spats McGee** · February 5, 2021, 07:39 AM

I also sent a pistol back to S&W last year (2020), and I don't recall having to send my DL to them.

RC20 · February 7, 2021, 03:36 PM

Its not a Fed thing, its a receiver of the gun thing.

Some feel the law mandates they have ID of the sender. That is not true but some call for it as a cover your ass thing.

I had an FFL whig out when I sent a gun without it, the buyer had not specified nor did the FFL on supply the copy of the FFL for shipping.

Upshot was it was his call not mine, sans a DL he was sending it back so I faxed that to him.

An FFL (which is what a gun company is) can set whatever conditions they want.

You don't have to ship it to them.

On the flip side, States sell all your information and the data bases have been hacked over and over again by the Chinese and Russians (mostly) . Yes I know, my access to the Airport was hacked in a huge hack (Chinese)

My credit cart company has been hacked (forget who)

My credit information has been hacked (that is everyone in the country)

Police departments have licensee plate scanners that data is not secure as well as cell phone snatcher system (and on and on)

You can buy an ID on the dark Web for $10.

Reality is the only person in the wold that does not have your information is you. Try to get your own information sometime!

TunnelRat · February 7, 2021, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RC20

Its not a Fed thing, its a receiver of the gun thing.

Some feel the law mandates they have ID of the sender. That is not true but some call for it as a cover your ass thing.

I had an FFL whig out when I sent a gun without it, the buyer had not specified nor did the FFL on supply the copy of the FFL for shipping.

Upshot was it was his call not mine, sans a DL he was sending it back so I faxed that to him.

An FFL (which is what a gun company is) can set whatever conditions they want.

You don't have to ship it to them.

On the flip side, States sell all your information and the data bases have been hacked over and over again by the Chinks and Russians. Yes I know, my access to the Airport was hacked in a huge hack (Chinese)

My credit cart company has been hacked (forget who)

My credit information has been hacked (that is everyone in the country)

Police departments have licensee plate scanners that data is not secure as well as cell phone snatcher system (and on and on)

Reality is the only person in the wold that does not have your information is you. Try to get your own information sometime!

Per a previous update they agreed to a copy of my license with just my name and address visible.

You’re right that most of us have had our information compromised. It doesn’t mean I voluntarily give out my information when I don’t have to.

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langenc · March 1, 2021, 07:40 PM

Ask that company to show where the ATF requires the wanted info.

Show them some of the things here that disagree w/ that idea.

enrikses · December 27, 2023, 08:42 AM

That's a pretty specific situation with sending a firearm back and the driver's license request.

mehavey · December 27, 2023, 09:18 AM

Belt & Suspenders by a company fearful of both scam & Big Brother.
(not necessarily an unreasonable concern in these "latter" days)

**44 AMP** · December 27, 2023, 02:58 PM

The question was asked in Feb of 2021.

Thread went dormant in March, 2021.

Pretty sure the OP's issue has been resolved by now.

February 3, 2021, 02:12 PM	#1
TunnelRat Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 12,212	Sending a Firearm Back: Does Shadow Systems Need My Driver’s License According to the ATF? Hi all, Over my years here I’ve sent a number of firearms back to the manufacturer. Not long ago I purchased a Shadow Systems MR920. It had some functional issues and after contacting the manufacturer they sent me a label. In the instructions they asked for a photocopy of my drivers license. I sent one in, but edited out my drivers license number and birth date because I didn’t think they would need that (my assumption was they mainly wanted the address). They since contacted me saying they need a completely unedited driver’s license in order to comply with ATF regulations. I’m not a huge fan of sharing my information when not needed. I have never once had a manufacturer request this of me, including last year when I sent a firearm to CZ. Does anyone know if their claim is correct? Thanks, TR Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

February 3, 2021, 02:31 PM	#4
TunnelRat Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 12,212	Good point. I asked a friend that is a current FFL and he was unaware of the requirement for a photocopy of my license. Frankly I’ve had my personal information stolen before and it’s something I’m leery of. If they had said, “It’s company policy”, I wouldn’t have been as intrigued. Saying it’s a requirement of the ATF has me more intrigued. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Last edited by TunnelRat; February 3, 2021 at 08:22 PM.

February 3, 2021, 08:14 PM	#9
TunnelRat Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 12,212	Okay that wasn't how I meant it, apologies for the confusion I caused. __________________ Know the status of your weapon Keep your muzzle oriented so that no one will be hurt if the firearm discharges Keep your finger off the trigger until you have an adequate sight picture Maintain situational awareness Last edited by TunnelRat; February 3, 2021 at 08:28 PM.

February 3, 2021, 08:26 PM	#10
TunnelRat Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 12,212	After asking Shadow Systems which ATF requirement meant they needed a full copy of my driver's license their compliance specialist told the service rep that the copy of the photo ID could be edited as long as it still showed my full name and address. I had edited out my middle name in addition to birth date and driver's license number. My guess is the compliance person saw it originally and asked the service rep for an unaltered version as it would be faster than the full explanation. Then the service rep thought only an unaltered copy of the ID would work. Regardless, it's all squared away. __________________ Know the status of your weapon Keep your muzzle oriented so that no one will be hurt if the firearm discharges Keep your finger off the trigger until you have an adequate sight picture Maintain situational awareness Last edited by TunnelRat; February 3, 2021 at 08:32 PM.

February 4, 2021, 06:20 AM	#14
stinkeypete Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2010 Location: Madison, Wisconsin Posts: 1,293	In a recent transfer my ffl required the sender to send him a copy of his drivers license. My ffl explained there is some scam where false people requested ffl information not to send a firearm but to get the ffl s information for some scam. Whatever the reason, my ffl wanted to be sure everyone he was sending info to was a legit person. This is all above my pay grade. __________________ My book "The Pheasant Hunter's Action Adventure Cookbook" is now on Amazon. Tall tales, hunting tips, butchering from bird to the freezer, and recipes.

February 3, 2021, 02:26 PM	#2
ligonierbill Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2007 Posts: 2,459	I would check directly with ATF. We sometimes think of them as the bad guys, but they can actually be pretty helpful. Whether or not it's required by the ATF, someone receiving a firearm from you may want some verification of your identity and, specifically, your age. I suspect it is the manufacturer's requirement, not ATF's. Last time I sent a gun for repair, no copy of my DL was requested. In fact, I sent one to E. R. Shaw for a new barrel recently, no DL.

February 3, 2021, 08:57 PM	#11
KyJim Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2005 Location: The Bluegrass Posts: 9,142	I have sent firearms back to Sig, Dan Wesson, and CZ. None have required a copy of my drivers license. It is my understanding there are some differences between manufacturers and non-manufacturers with FFLs. Don’t have time to research it now

February 3, 2021, 10:12 PM	#12
JERRYS. Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2013 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,969	I've sent guns to the factory for repair and had them sent back directly to me. what you describe is not an ATF regulation but a local business policy or an uninformed sales rep opinion.

February 4, 2021, 06:12 AM	#13
shurshot Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2006 Posts: 1,819	I have in recent years, shipped guns to Colt and Uberti for repairs. Neither one required my drivers license.

February 5, 2021, 07:36 AM	#16
rodfac Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,624	Yep...sent two guns back to S&W recently and no driver's license was required. Rod __________________ Cherish our flag, honor it, defend it in word and deed, or get the hell out. Our Bill of Rights has been paid for by heros in uniform and shall not be diluted by misguided governmental social experiments. We owe this to our children, anything less is cowardice. USAF FAC, 5th Spl Forces, Vietnam Vet '69-'73.

February 5, 2021, 07:39 AM	#17
Spats McGee Staff Join Date: July 28, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 8,821	I also sent a pistol back to S&W last year (2020), and I don't recall having to send my DL to them. __________________ I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. If you need some honest-to-goodness legal advice, go buy some.

February 7, 2021, 03:36 PM	#18
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	Its not a Fed thing, its a receiver of the gun thing. Some feel the law mandates they have ID of the sender. That is not true but some call for it as a cover your ass thing. I had an FFL whig out when I sent a gun without it, the buyer had not specified nor did the FFL on supply the copy of the FFL for shipping. Upshot was it was his call not mine, sans a DL he was sending it back so I faxed that to him. An FFL (which is what a gun company is) can set whatever conditions they want. You don't have to ship it to them. On the flip side, States sell all your information and the data bases have been hacked over and over again by the Chinese and Russians (mostly) . Yes I know, my access to the Airport was hacked in a huge hack (Chinese) My credit cart company has been hacked (forget who) My credit information has been hacked (that is everyone in the country) Police departments have licensee plate scanners that data is not secure as well as cell phone snatcher system (and on and on) You can buy an ID on the dark Web for $10. Reality is the only person in the wold that does not have your information is you. Try to get your own information sometime! __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

March 1, 2021, 07:40 PM	#20
langenc Senior Member Join Date: August 19, 2007 Location: Montmorency Co, MI Posts: 1,551	Ask that company to show where the ATF requires the wanted info. Show them some of the things here that disagree w/ that idea.

December 27, 2023, 08:42 AM	#21
enrikses Junior Member Join Date: May 5, 2021 Posts: 3	That's a pretty specific situation with sending a firearm back and the driver's license request.

December 27, 2023, 09:18 AM	#22
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,903	Belt & Suspenders by a company fearful of both scam & Big Brother. (not necessarily an unreasonable concern in these "latter" days)

December 27, 2023, 02:58 PM	#23
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,871	The question was asked in Feb of 2021. Thread went dormant in March, 2021. Pretty sure the OP's issue has been resolved by now. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.