German Luger Identification

SRE · August 19, 2015, 07:15 PM

I have a Luger in the shop. Replacing the retainer spring and giving it a good once over for long term storage for my client. With his permission I am seeking some information as I am not too familiar with the historical aspects of these fine pieces of equipment. Please view photos. If anyone could provide some insight it would be much appreciated. It is slightly different from others I have seen.

- SN# 82XX
- Stamped 1942
- Has Nazi German markings in many locations
- We have the original holster, takedown tool, and extra magazine which all have their own spots in the holder itself.

Here is the kicker. He also has the "AG USFET Form No 33" Certificate stating it was examined by the US government as captured enemy equipment and signed off in the possession of the new owner at that time. The certificate is dated June 5, 1946. And from the "Headquarters United States Forces European Theatre"

Also there is another original piece of literature stating the same thing as the "AG USFET Form No 33" but it just says "Certificate" at the top and it is dated Oct 11 1945. But this one is signed off by a different member of the military that the previous form dated from 1946. This certificate is from organization "976 FA BN"

What an amazing piece of history and I am fortunate to have it in my shop. Sure is a humbling experience handling this firearm wonder what it has been through and war it's played a role in.

Thank you in advance

Jim Watson · August 19, 2015, 08:09 PM

Interesting gun. I am not a Luger expert but I was able to Google up some stuff.

Sure looks like it is stamped 1940, not 1942.
The "42" on the center toggle is the manufacturer's code for Mauser at that time. (Also "S/42" for earlier periods and "byf" later. They really thought they were putting something over on Allied intelligence about who was making pistols. Whee.)

Do the serial numbers match on all parts? (Last two digits on the small parts.)
What is the letter after the four digit serial number on the front of the receiver below the barrel? It is part of the serial number, they made over 10000 guns per year but only used four digits, changing the letter every cycle. They also started over at the first of the year, so date, serial number, and letter are necessary for full identification.

It has the appearance of the Mauser "black widow" Luger, so called by collectors because of its all black hot blue finish instead of the older rust blue and straw, and its black plastic grips and magazine bottom.

The thing is, the black plastic grips were not standard until late 1941 or 1942. Only a very few guns got them in 1940. But a lot got them as replacements either as a repair or just because collectors thought the "Black Widow" was way kewl and would pay more.

If this is an investment piece at high price, then you or your customer needs a real expert to pronounce on it.

The holster, extra magazine, and tool add a good deal of value if authentic.

I do not know the meaning of two capture papers. Maybe the gun changed hands in a poker game and the winner had a new form filled out to be sure he could get it home. 976 FA is undoubtedly the 976th Field Artillery Battalion. Here is a page by the son of a vet in that outfit.
http://www.mytripjournal.com/travel-...my-credit-unit

SRE · August 19, 2015, 08:44 PM

Yes sorry, it's stamped 1940. Got my numbers mixed up. Yes all numbers matching. Last 2 digits of the 4 digit serial # are on stamped many places on the gun. The person who brought it home from WWII (who's name is on the certificated) sold it directly to my client many years ago. Everything is original except the new retainer spring I put in it... obviously as far as we know. Thank you!

SRE · August 19, 2015, 08:53 PM

This is the letter... not sure what it is. "A" or "K"?

Jim Watson · August 19, 2015, 09:42 PM

Looks like a k in lower case German Fraktur.

As I said, if the black grips are original, you guy has a good catch.

kilimanjaro · August 20, 2015, 11:42 AM

I've seen two capture certificates that were entirely handwritten, perhaps the Army pencilpushers didn't like that and required a new standard form.

SRE · August 20, 2015, 01:50 PM

How may one tell if they're original grips? I'm confident they are. Thanks for all the help!

mapsjanhere · August 20, 2015, 02:02 PM

Original as of "end of war" might be, but probably not as of 1940. But then, if the worst that happened to a gun through 5 years of war is new grips, that's pretty good.

SRE · August 20, 2015, 06:19 PM

The black widows also apparently have magazines that have black plastic bottom caps. That are unmarked? My client's gun does have that type of mag.

**44 AMP** · August 20, 2015, 07:19 PM

In the Standard Catalog of Luger (Davis 2006) the gun that seems closest to yours is the Mauser 42 code four digit date.

The toggle is marked "42" (not s/42)
The receiver has a 4 digit date, either 1939 or 1940

Approximately 133,700 dated 1940.

Magazines original to the gun should have a blued steel body, aluminum base, and be #'d to match the gun.

Original grips should be checkered walnut.

Finish should be salt blue, including the small parts. No straw colors used.

2006 book prices
poor 450, fair 650, Good 950, VG 1,800, EXC 2,500

bring back papers and complete period correct holster & accessories add to the value to a collector.

Good Luck!

gyvel · August 20, 2015, 10:44 PM

Remove one grip and see if "82" is stamped inside. Grips weren't always numbered, but if they are, then you can be sure they are original.

Quentin2 · August 21, 2015, 12:15 AM

I also doubt the grips are original. If you do remove them be very carful as it's easy to chip the left one up near the safety lever. And take very detailed pictures of the inside surfaces, for authentication.

There are around six versions of authentic Bakelite grips used on late 1941 and 1942 byf P.08s which can be identified on the Lugerforums and other Luger sites. And of course there are aftermarket black grips. You might want to run your question by the nice folks over there. I have a very nice 1941 byf with original black grips and magazine but it took a lot of detailed pictures to determine that. They were very helpful.

SRE · August 21, 2015, 06:48 PM

I removed the grips yesterday. Nothing stamped. Will remove again and take photos.

gyvel · August 22, 2015, 03:33 AM

Oops. My bad. I looked at the photo again more closely and realized those aren't wood grips. Disregard my comment about a number being stamped into them.

If you get the grips off again, take a photo of the inside; It's pretty easy to spot an epoxy repro.

SRE · August 22, 2015, 12:25 PM

Closeup of grips

Quentin2 · August 22, 2015, 02:52 PM

I'm no expert but they look authentic. If not, they're darn good repos. I'd check with Lugerforums. And also to see if ANY 1940 P.08 came with plastic grips.

If it's determined original wood were swapped with 1941-1942 Bakelite grips those guys could help you figure out what to do. I think the Bakelite grips often sell for more because people with 41 or 42 byfs with wood grips like to turn them into "Black Widows".

Funny, when I bought my 41 byf in 1997, the seller apologized for the plastic grips and lowered the price. We both thought they were aftermarket add-ons. I intended to find authentic wood grips but got confused and dropped it. Ten years later I looked into it again and Black Widows (a coined but catchy term) were now sexy and highly valued. People were paying $275 and more just for grips and fake black grips were everywhere.

I'm glad I left that P.08 original, maybe you should too unless people you trust are 100% sure the grips have been swapped. From 1940 till now ANYTHING could have happened.

SRE · August 27, 2015, 06:41 PM

Got set up over there at the Luger Forums. They helped me out a great bit. Thanks guys for the referral. PS I bought the Luger from my client. Paid a premium but I fell in love with it. What an amazing piece of history.

August 19, 2015, 08:44 PM	#3
SRE Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2011 Location: Southern York County, PA Posts: 145	Yes sorry, it's stamped 1940. Got my numbers mixed up. Yes all numbers matching. Last 2 digits of the 4 digit serial # are on stamped many places on the gun. The person who brought it home from WWII (who's name is on the certificated) sold it directly to my client many years ago. Everything is original except the new retainer spring I put in it... obviously as far as we know. Thank you! __________________ Combat Commander

August 20, 2015, 01:50 PM	#7
SRE Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2011 Location: Southern York County, PA Posts: 145	How may one tell if they're original grips? I'm confident they are. Thanks for all the help! __________________ Combat Commander

August 20, 2015, 02:02 PM	#8
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	Original as of "end of war" might be, but probably not as of 1940. But then, if the worst that happened to a gun through 5 years of war is new grips, that's pretty good. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

August 20, 2015, 06:19 PM	#9
SRE Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2011 Location: Southern York County, PA Posts: 145	The black widows also apparently have magazines that have black plastic bottom caps. That are unmarked? My client's gun does have that type of mag. __________________ Combat Commander

August 20, 2015, 07:19 PM	#10
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,871	In the Standard Catalog of Luger (Davis 2006) the gun that seems closest to yours is the Mauser 42 code four digit date. The toggle is marked "42" (not s/42) The receiver has a 4 digit date, either 1939 or 1940 Approximately 133,700 dated 1940. Magazines original to the gun should have a blued steel body, aluminum base, and be #'d to match the gun. Original grips should be checkered walnut. Finish should be salt blue, including the small parts. No straw colors used. 2006 book prices poor 450, fair 650, Good 950, VG 1,800, EXC 2,500 bring back papers and complete period correct holster & accessories add to the value to a collector. Good Luck! __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

August 19, 2015, 08:09 PM	#2
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,546	Interesting gun. I am not a Luger expert but I was able to Google up some stuff. Sure looks like it is stamped 1940, not 1942. The "42" on the center toggle is the manufacturer's code for Mauser at that time. (Also "S/42" for earlier periods and "byf" later. They really thought they were putting something over on Allied intelligence about who was making pistols. Whee.) Do the serial numbers match on all parts? (Last two digits on the small parts.) What is the letter after the four digit serial number on the front of the receiver below the barrel? It is part of the serial number, they made over 10000 guns per year but only used four digits, changing the letter every cycle. They also started over at the first of the year, so date, serial number, and letter are necessary for full identification. It has the appearance of the Mauser "black widow" Luger, so called by collectors because of its all black hot blue finish instead of the older rust blue and straw, and its black plastic grips and magazine bottom. The thing is, the black plastic grips were not standard until late 1941 or 1942. Only a very few guns got them in 1940. But a lot got them as replacements either as a repair or just because collectors thought the "Black Widow" was way kewl and would pay more. If this is an investment piece at high price, then you or your customer needs a real expert to pronounce on it. The holster, extra magazine, and tool add a good deal of value if authentic. I do not know the meaning of two capture papers. Maybe the gun changed hands in a poker game and the winner had a new form filled out to be sure he could get it home. 976 FA is undoubtedly the 976th Field Artillery Battalion. Here is a page by the son of a vet in that outfit. http://www.mytripjournal.com/travel-...my-credit-unit

August 19, 2015, 09:42 PM	#5
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,546	Looks like a k in lower case German Fraktur. As I said, if the black grips are original, you guy has a good catch.

August 20, 2015, 11:42 AM	#6
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 3,963	I've seen two capture certificates that were entirely handwritten, perhaps the Army pencilpushers didn't like that and required a new standard form.

August 20, 2015, 10:44 PM	#11
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	Remove one grip and see if "82" is stamped inside. Grips weren't always numbered, but if they are, then you can be sure they are original. __________________ As always, YMMV. __________________________________________ MIIAA SIFE

August 21, 2015, 12:15 AM	#12
Quentin2 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2009 Location: NorthWest USA Posts: 1,996	I also doubt the grips are original. If you do remove them be very carful as it's easy to chip the left one up near the safety lever. And take very detailed pictures of the inside surfaces, for authentication. There are around six versions of authentic Bakelite grips used on late 1941 and 1942 byf P.08s which can be identified on the Lugerforums and other Luger sites. And of course there are aftermarket black grips. You might want to run your question by the nice folks over there. I have a very nice 1941 byf with original black grips and magazine but it took a lot of detailed pictures to determine that. They were very helpful.

August 21, 2015, 06:48 PM	#13
SRE Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2011 Location: Southern York County, PA Posts: 145	I removed the grips yesterday. Nothing stamped. Will remove again and take photos. __________________ Combat Commander

August 22, 2015, 03:33 AM	#14
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	Oops. My bad. I looked at the photo again more closely and realized those aren't wood grips. Disregard my comment about a number being stamped into them. If you get the grips off again, take a photo of the inside; It's pretty easy to spot an epoxy repro. __________________ As always, YMMV. __________________________________________ MIIAA SIFE

August 22, 2015, 02:52 PM	#16
Quentin2 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2009 Location: NorthWest USA Posts: 1,996	I'm no expert but they look authentic. If not, they're darn good repos. I'd check with Lugerforums. And also to see if ANY 1940 P.08 came with plastic grips. If it's determined original wood were swapped with 1941-1942 Bakelite grips those guys could help you figure out what to do. I think the Bakelite grips often sell for more because people with 41 or 42 byfs with wood grips like to turn them into "Black Widows". Funny, when I bought my 41 byf in 1997, the seller apologized for the plastic grips and lowered the price. We both thought they were aftermarket add-ons. I intended to find authentic wood grips but got confused and dropped it. Ten years later I looked into it again and Black Widows (a coined but catchy term) were now sexy and highly valued. People were paying $275 and more just for grips and fake black grips were everywhere. I'm glad I left that P.08 original, maybe you should too unless people you trust are 100% sure the grips have been swapped. From 1940 till now ANYTHING could have happened.

August 27, 2015, 06:41 PM	#17
SRE Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2011 Location: Southern York County, PA Posts: 145	Got set up over there at the Luger Forums. They helped me out a great bit. Thanks guys for the referral. PS I bought the Luger from my client. Paid a premium but I fell in love with it. What an amazing piece of history. __________________ Combat Commander