Revisiting 1986 shootout - Interesting to see people with GSWs continue to fight

[leadcounsel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYclqcbtngM

Thinking about ballistics and their effectiveness and checking out the 1986 Miami shootout which prompted a total review of police firepower, giving birth to the 10mm and .40 caliber.

Several of these individuals were hit with the .223, 12 gauge buck, and various .38 caliber handgun and 9mm handgun rounds, and continued to fight.

Rather impressive given the will to survive and keep fighting.

Anyway, just an interesting perspective from a real world, 4 minute shootout with a lot of hits and relatively few deaths, and almost no immediate kills despite hits.

[Tactical Jackalope]

1986 ammo vs 2013 ammo.


The winner is: 2013 ammo.

If they had modern JHP technology, it would have been a whole different ball game.

[PawPaw]

I was an active cop in 1986 and remember the turmoil that gunfight caused in the ranks. Interesting that it was ended by a revolver shooting .38 Special FBI loads. I remember a report where a doctor stated that if Platt had left the gunfight as soon as he was shot, and headed for the nearest hospital, he still would have died from the wound. He simply continued to fight until Ed Mireles ended it with the revolver.

After reading all the reports I could get my hands on, I made the decision to continue to carry a Model 66 revolver until I retired from my first agency in 2000. I never felt undergunned, and as I was in a rural jurisdiction, I felt that the revolver would serve me fine. After 18 months of retirement, I strapped on the gunbelt with another agency, and I've been here over 12 years now. I currently carry a SW M&P45.

But, yeah, the Miami shootout changed lots of things in police work, and its effects are still being felt today. The North Hollywood shootout in 1997 also caused us to re-think our armament and tactics.

[SPEMack618]

In reading about the shoot out, I've always thought that while it showed the shortcomings of the then current pistol ammo, I always believed that it was one of a very few instances where the term "use your handgun to get to a long gun" would actually come into play.

[Tactical Jackalope]

The North Hollywood shootout in 1997 also caused us to re-think our armament and tactics.

There have been similar incidents in Miami-Dade County. MDPD officers can carry AR-15's in the trunk for such events.

This is one example: Here. Just the weapon used. There have been similar issues like that of N. Hollywood, just not as severe and SRT has handled it fairly quickly.

[Jim243]

More an issue of 1986 tactics vs 2013 tactics. They should have called in for Police backup and taken defensive positions instead of trying to take down these two without any information as to what these two were armed with.

Always seems that the bad guys are better armed than the units trying to take them down. Five shot 38 specials? Even in 1986 there were better options for the FBI to use.

Jim

I currently carry a SW M&P45.

Good thinking, good choice.

[leadcounsel]

So many mistakes in tactics and weaponry.

Apparently, one of the agents lost his handgun when it fell out of his own car door, which popped open when he rammed the suspect car! Seems so unlikely and unlucky.

I agree, once they were boxed in, they should have withdrawn and cordoned the area and called for backup. But I can understand that once the shooting started it would have been hard to pull back safely.

I wonder how much of the FBI load-out was up to the individuals versus the unit?

Some were .38 specials, some where 9mm. Note even in 1986, there were no .45 ACP 1911s, and few, if any, high capacity 9mm pistols in the immediate fight. A 15 round 9mm (Beretta, SW, etc.) would have made a presumably huge difference since several agents were unable to return fire due to inability to reload their 5 shot revolvers.

Even in 1986, the AR15 was widely available. Heck, agents carried these in 1962 on Presidential protection details. How about an 9mm SMG like an Uzi or HK? Presidential details in the early 1980s carried Uzis, among other guns. How about a M1 Carbine? Or an M14? Or a Thompson .45 SMG? The bad guys had a Mini14. There were a ton of weapons available that would have given these agents a real upper hand.

I'm just shocked that FBI units didn't have these. I love the 12 gauge and buckshot for home defense. But once you leave the confines of your home, there are much better choices.

At least one of these agents, and probably many, had experience in Vietnam. I'm guessing that many of these agents had military experience, even combat experience.

I'm equally shocked that these agents would go into these situations so under-gunned.

I know hindsight is 20/20. However, these were professionals in the FBI! You'd think that they, and their organization, would have better weaponry and tactics just a few decades ago.

I'm certainly no expert in ballistics, tactics, etc. but I could see the immediate folly in the weaponry they were using. I'll give them a pass on the tactics because I doubt it was planned that way, and the enemy always gets a vote and things change in dynamic ways.

[Wreck-n-Crew]

1986 ammo vs 2013 ammo.


The winner is: 2013 ammo.

If they had modern JHP technology, it would have been a whole different ball game.

Ditto.

Silver tip rounds failed to penetrate well. The effects of the shootout lead to most of the blame being placed on insufficient power and to the development of the 10mm followed by the .40 S&W.

All along it was ammunition. If I am not mistaken the shotgun had birdshot in it. Bullets removed from the suspects were too shallow and the .38 was proven to be the terminal round.

[Jim243]

However, these were professionals in the FBI! You'd think that they, and their organization, would have better weaponry and tactics

I think we all have watched too much television and hype about the FBI. You have to understand the real purpose of the agency. It is INVESTIGATION and the collection of information (which they do very well). In the 1980's most agents were accountants and lawyers (they do/did receive some training but it was minimal and only had to qualify with their hand gun once a year), I am not sure about today, but their basic job was collecting information, a lot of paper work and foot work checking up on security clearances and investigating crimes covered under federal code (like bank robberies), but most arrests, security details and enforcing warrants is done by the US Marshal Service who are better trained for this type of work. They where/are required to work through local police agencies in arresting suspects. Today they have their own SWAT units, but are few and far between.

I am afraid that those involved in this shoot out, where trying to show that they were more than a bunch of pencil pushers and fell under the John Wayne/J. Edgar Hoover syndrome in effecting this arrest. (they believed in their own hype) I realy think the Dade County Sharif's department would have done a better job in this arrest as well as having more resources available.

Jim

[Derbel McDillet]

Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight - http://www.paladin-press.com/product...-FBI-Firefight

The rolling stakeout was, in essence, a fishing expedition based on the the suspects' robbery pattern.

There were agents assigned to the stakeout that were armed with SMGs but they didn't arrive on scene until the shooting was over.

The tactic of the time was for multiple agents to swarm and overpower the bad guy(s). Unfortunately in this incident the bad guys didn't give up and surrender.

[boondocker385]

A lot of cops think the shield is somehow magical.... saw that a lot with FBI types and others in the late 80s and 90s until the reality of violence sank in.

[Pezo]

The two agents killed were armed with "high capacity" nine's. One of the perps was armed with a pgo shotgun loaded with bird shot. The first lethal shot was with a 9mm silver tip it just didn't incapacitate quickly enough. The officers 12 gauge was loaded with buckshot and was used and shot at the suspects feet thus slowing them down. A revolver loaded with .38+p ended both lives (quicker they were mortally wounded already) in the end. The morale of this shootout is don't bring handguns to a rifle fight. If you can help it. If they would have came out with long guns (12 gauge or carbines) in the very beginning perhaps a better outcome. Take a crazy armoured car robber with a 30 shot semi automatic rifle and military training and tell me having .40 cal handguns will do flawlessly. Ha!

[btmj]

Agree with this ^^^

The reason the shootout went so badly for the FBI is because they were fighting a trained rifleman with handguns... not because the handguns needed to be more powerful or have more capacity.

Imagine if the 8 agents had entered the gunfight all armed with rifles and shotguns. It would have played out quite differently I imagine.

[JohnKSa]

I'm not sure that capacity wasn't a factor.

Had Gordon McNeill had a hi-cap semi-auto instead of a revolver, things might have gone very differently. He was in position to put fire on the two criminals early in the fight but ran dry very rapidly and was unable to reload due to a hand injury. He was shot and disabled before he could reload his revolver. A few more shots in the gun before needing to reload, and/or a simpler reloading procedure might have changed the outcome of the fight significantly.

McNeill was disabled after his primary gun ran dry and he couldn't reload it. Hanlon was shot and disabled while trying to reload. Dove's gun was empty (and disabled) when he was killed.

Mireles survived and was only partially disabled during the fight, however he shot two guns dry before the festivities were concluded.

Orrantia emptied his revolver, reloaded it, emptied it again, and was presumably reloading for the second time when the fight ended.

Risner emptied his primary gun and switched to his backup, firing one round from it.

Grogan was the only agent who didn't empty at least one gun during the firefight--he was killed before firing a full magazine.

Risner was the only agent not killed or disabled who ended the fight with rounds in his gun--and that was because he switched to his backup and the fight ended before he emptied it.

It appears that having more rounds on tap, either via increased capacity or a backup gun could have been a significantly beneficial factor for half of the agents in the gunfight.

[Derbel McDillet]

JohnKSa: that is a superb summary!

[skoro]

Interesting that it was ended by a revolver shooting .38 Special FBI loads.

That is not only interesting, but informative. And one of the reasons that my HD revolvers are stoked with FBI loads.

[jmr40]

Interesting that it was ended by a revolver shooting .38 Special FBI loads.

That is not only interesting, but informative. And one of the reasons that my HD revolvers are stoked with FBI loads.

Don't read too much into that. Note that both were already hit with non-survivable wounds. The last shots just finished the job faster.

A persons mental state and desire to live is a huge factor in staying in a fight regardless of ones wounds. There are lots of examples of people continuing to fight long after they should have been dead. This is a classic from the Vietnam war.

http://www.badassoftheweek.com/index.cgi?id=50095485956

[lcpiper]

I don't see anything specifically wrong with JohnSKa's remarks but I also don't think they out-way or negate the fact that these agents should have been sporting a few long guns if they thought there was any chance of armed resistance. Officers just should not go into a known high-risk situation without excellent firepower on tap if at all possible.

That being said, they don't always have a correct assessment of what they are walking into and high cap pistols can make a big difference it would seem.

[markj]

If they had modern JHP technology, it would have been a whole different ball game

With the body armour they were wearing?

[MJN77]

http://www.gardenstatecle.com/lawtube/FBI2.html

This is an interview with the survivors of the gunfight for a training video. Most of the agents had shotguns in the back seats of their cars. The fight happened so fast they were unable to get to them.

[skoro]

Originally Posted by jmr40

There are lots of examples of people continuing to fight long after they should have been dead. This is a classic from the Vietnam war.

http://www.badassoftheweek.com/index.cgi?id=50095485956

Roy Benavidez was, in fact, a true badazz with a capital B. Thanks for posting that link.

[trooper3385]

If you need help in an investigation, there is no one better than the FBI. If you need help in a gunfight, your SOL if the FBI is your backup. I remember one of our self defense instructors was asked to teach some classes in defensive tactics to new FBI agents in the FBI A academy. He walked in and watched for about 10 minutes and then asked one of the instructors why they were not doing any kind of physical contact. He said they looked at him like he was crazy and said they don't do that there. He turned around and walked out and got on the next flight.

[Wreck-n-Crew]

Just to add to my response about the ammo and Johnska's point that amount of ammunition, or lack thereof being a factor. The FBI attack was lacking from a tactical standpoint, even if by chance, it was lesson to be learned.

The firepower which they faced (that they had no knowledge of,)lead to the disaster being multiplied. The tactical advantage was lost when they converged on the suspects at different times. Making the attacks more like waves rather than the one big wave of all at the same time.

The .223 proved it's effectiveness in those waves. Averaging 2 agents per wave (if my recollections are correct)was hardly enough to gain the upper hand and provide firepower that overwhelmed the suspects.

Had the FBI had higher Capacity weapons and been able to converge and fire collectively with the proper ammunition, it could have been a different outcome.

However I believe that sometimes things have to happen to bring about necessary change. Call it fate or a learning experience the book was re-written and updated as time goes on. Sad we had to learn any lesson by the loss of life.

[leadcounsel]

Much of this focuses on it from the angle of the FBI agents. However, it should also be noted that this could have gone much worse for the agents too but for some dumb luck. The criminals were fighting to their rear and sides and boxed in the immobile car for the first segment of the engagement. The criminals apparently were unable to score solid fight-ending hits on close targets with their long guns as a result of fighting from a poor fighting position and being wounded repeatedly and early. Most of their hits were non lethal (eg shots to limbs). Not trying to armchair QB, but imagine if they scored COM hits and sooner to the agents. ...

Had the bad guys experienced a little luck, they could have soundly won the fight and escaped (even just temporarily).

However I believe that sometimes things have to happen to bring about necessary change. Call it fate or a learning experience the book was re-written and updated as time goes on. Sad we had to learn any lesson by the loss of life.

Sadly, our .gov agencies, be it police, FBI, CIA, and military, all seem to re-learn lessons the extremely hard way, always involving absurd and unnecessary loss of life.

The 'lessons' learned in 1986 were already known from at least a century of ballistic understanding and tactics. Willing to bet that any GI from WWII consulted in 1985 would have said that their tactics and weapons for 'urban combat' were woefully inept.

Yet, just looking through the history books of costly gov failed actions... we see many - and a shocking inability to learn from history. I'll avoid the long list because this is a gun and tactics forum. However, a lot of good 'tactics' involve not BEING there to begin with. And IF you must be there (whether war, serving search warrants, or traffic stops, or arrests) then you should be ready for nearly anything.

[Derbel McDillet]

Don't read too much into that. Note that both were already hit with non-survivable wounds. The last shots just finished the job faster.

The 158gr LSWCHP bullets fired by SA Mireles hit and disrupted the spinal cords of both Platt and Matix, which instantly incapacitated them. None of the other previous hits achieved this effect and both would have been able to continue to perform willful activity until they eventually lost consciousness from blood loss - and that means they continued to be a deadly danger.

Matix's prior wounds were survivable.

Had the FBI had higher Capacity weapons and been able to converge and fire collectively with the proper ammunition, it could have been a different outcome.

Had the 9mm bullet fired by SA Dove gone thru Platt's, heart instead of stopping an inch short, Platt probably would not have gotten to his feet after crawling out of the Monte Carlo, and the outcome would indeed have been different.