What Went Wrong? - Page 4

roy reali · November 4, 2010, 06:09 AM

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I will also tell you that 2 or 3 out of 10 guns that come out of some of these mfg's seem to be pretty good ....for 2,500 or maybe even 10,000 shells

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Saying that a gun manufacturer has three-fourths of its guns leaving the factory as defective is an extraordinary claim. Just typing out a claim here and not backing it up with scientific evidence amounts to hearsay. It is nothing more then a personal opinion. It does border on snobbery. This wouldn't even be allowed in a court of law.

There is a big gun show this weekend. I am going to ask around about this. Maybe there will be a gunsmith or dealer with experience in selling and dealing with inexpensive imports. Maybe I can get some hard data on this.

lizziedog1 · November 4, 2010, 06:49 AM

I was just looking at the CZ website. All there guns, shotguns included, have a five year waranty. Most used guns I have seen come "As Is" on the price tag. That means that if you pull the trigger on it tomorrow and it don't go bang, you could be SOL. With a new CZ you could fire one hundred times tomorrow, and the day after and continue nonstop for five years until you are SOL.

Those bargain used shotguns don't seem like such bargain after all.

PJR · November 4, 2010, 07:36 AM

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And if we sub car, suit, hammer, or whatever - by your logic, they must all be good?

Dang right. Them guys in those fancy shootin' duds jest peed their money away. Barbour clothes does me jest fine an' if they ain't good enough for you yer just a big snootie.

Watches too! I see these yuppies with their Rolexes. Well hell my Omega keeps just as good 'a time. What idjits they is.

And why in the heck would someone spend all that money on a Rolls Royce? Criminy, me and muh 'lil ole BMW gets to all the same places jest as fast. Fools, all of them guys. Fools I tell ya!

Dave McC · November 4, 2010, 09:07 AM

This thread is teetering on closure....

I shoot 6-7K a year at clays, maybe 100 shells at game in a good year. Some of my favorite shotguns cost less than $300, and they've held up well.

Of course, many of them are 870s, which defy the Glitch Gremlins.

6-7K loads a year is not much by competition standards. It's enough though, to weed out a few sub quality guns that I no longer own.

Shotguns of known reliability and longevity are not necessarily expensive. Brent's Mossbergs and my Remingtons are cases in point. So are Model 11s, 12s, A-5s, 311s, etc. With the exception of minty A-5s, all can be found for a few hundred and will last longer than any of us here.

Off brands are a crap shoot. I've had too many folks on the line have troubles with imported sub quality junk to think there's some great bargains out there that are made in Uzbekistan,etc. Others go the distance, at least for now, but who knows for how long?

Finally, I never shot skeet with a Saiga. I did take the one I had on loan to the range at PGC and shot Chinese Trap with the Geezer Squad. They got to shoot it a little and liked it.

The Geezers, G*d Bless them, are opinionated, elderly, and own shotguns like Model 21 Winchesters, Parker SxS 20 gauges and Model 12 trap guns. They tried a few shots each with that Saiga and liked it.

Snobs? No.

Shotgunners? Heck yes!!

Technosavant · November 4, 2010, 10:52 AM

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I have to admit, I'd love to show up at the skeet feild with a saiga.

Done it. Mine's even converted to the pistol grip and traditional stock. Complete with a railed forend with a Magpul AFG on it. The looks you get are pretty epic. Problem is, when set up like a defensive shotgun, the rifle type sights on the top make is hard to track on birds, it doesn't swing well, and the stock I have on there needs a decent cheek piece and another inch LOP on there in order to point even remotely consistently for me. Great for defensive work. Lousy for clay games. But oh, the looks...

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I own CHEAP Mossberg 500's...

Pump guns are in a different world than the double barreled guns. You just don't find expensive pumps; they aren't needed or desired by the market. The difference between a $200 NEF Parder or Mossberg Maverick and a $550 Remington 870 or Benelli Nova isn't near as much as you'd find between a $800 Mossberg Black Onyx and a $2200 Browning Cynergy. In both cases the expensive one is 175% as much as the cheaper one, but it's a different world. I don't know that you're getting a gun almost 200% better in the case of the 870 vs. Maverick. In the Black Onyx vs. the Cynergy, you might well be. Now, not every shooter will notice that difference, but just because you don't notice it doesn't mean that the cheap one is every bit "just as good as." "Fits my needs" is not "every bit as good as."

zippy13 · November 4, 2010, 11:57 AM

This and similar threads remind me of an adage about driving. Most highway drivers share the opinion: "Anyone driving faster than me is a maniac, and anyone going slower is a road hog."

With some shotgun owners, if someone buys a more expensive gun it's an unnecessary extravagance and they're a snob -- and, if it's less expensive it's a POS and they're a cheapskate. We're all going down different highways in life, and what works best for me may not for you -- get over it.

BigJimP · November 4, 2010, 12:21 PM

I agree with Dave - if we're going to continue this debate - lets keep it civil !

Everything I've said about this topic is only my opinion Roy ....its not a scientific blind study ... - and I hope it came accross as my opinion / not a study. Where can you go and read about issues on these guns - other forums like Shotgun World, and on this forum too - where someone says they have a problem, etc ...but like any site / or column or whatever ...you have to understand the perspective of the writer.

I have talked to one of the more senior sales guys at my Cabela's store about a year ago - and I have no way to prove it - but he told me they were getting most all of the TriStar O/U's they sold back for warranty issues. But I believe they have a 5 yr warranty on them as well ...so hopefully they fixed those guns and the issues aren't just repeating themselves. They also sell Browning, Beretta, etc of course. I believe they try and give the customer what they want - and I doubt their sales guys would tell anyone their TriStar models are as good a gun as any of their Beretta or Brownings - but I hear a lot of bad info at gun counters --- most any time I'm standing around.

I have a friend in the retail gun business - and he buys and sells hundreds of used guns every week (and a wide range of shotguns / tactical to high end target guns ) / and he's told me he will not buy or take in trade any more Baikals or TriStar's ...because he can't get parts and his gunsmith was having too many problems with them .....and he also tells me he's got too many used Mossberg and Remington low end O/U's and can't sell them ...and he tells me he will take any Browning or Beretta O/U he can get - no matter how beat up it might be - because at the right price - he can always sell them. Another gun he likes to see come in is a Ruger O/U - especially the older ones - because they're less expensive and he says they're good sellers.

He's also a dealer that special orders, inventories and sells a lot of new guns - but on the new side, he tends to stay with Browning and Beretta on his O/U's - and more Brownings than Berettas.

I don't own any of the guns I'm saying negative things about / and I won't be buying any of them to test / but I also won't change my mind either. How many of these guns have I seen --- I don't know / but I'd say probably 200 or more in the last few years. Again, its not scientific - but I think I've seen about 30% of them were ok / 70% had issues...

I wish some of these guns were better / because I think there is a need for "casual" shooters to be able to buy a gun at a fair price that will give them a 25,000 shell life without a lot of mechanical issues. Not everyone can afford $ 1,500 - $ 3,000 for a shotgun and I get that ...

But when someone on this forum / or other sites I visit - asks about a good solid long term O/U ....until I see proof otherwise --- I will continue to tell them, in my opinion, Browning and Beretta give you a lot of gun for your money. If I had to pick one less expensive gun ...for them to take a chance on - it would probably be the Ruger - but I have not been that impressed with the fit and finish on the Rugers I've seen lately.

I go to the gunshows in my area most every month ...and I love talking to guys about what they're selling .....( and I hear all kinds of stuff that borders on mis-info ...in my opinion )...

Am I biased - sure --- in terms of shotguns, I shoot primarily Browning O/U's - and I have about 15 of them or so / the only pump guns I have are Browning BPS models / I only have a couple of semi-autos and I prefer Benelli (on handguns I have several Sig's - but mostly I collect and shoot high end 1911's and older S&W revolvers ) because its what fits me / my hands, etc ...and what I like ! You won't see me comment hardly at all on tactical shotguns ...because I have no interest in them and my experience is 35 yrs old ... so that's my perspective and Bias ....

I do not own any Beretta O/U shotguns / I won one, at a sporting clays tournament...and traded it in (new in box) - for a new Browning O/U. I think Beretta makes a good solid gun / but they don't fit me. I am considering one of the new Beretta semi-auto UGB Trap models ...for the heck of it ...

Stay well / and good luck at the show this weekend - hope you find a good deal on something you want ....

darkgael · November 4, 2010, 12:22 PM

Quote:

This and similar threads remind me of an adage about driving. Most highway drivers share the opinion: "Anyone driving faster than me is a maniac, and anyone going slower is a road hog."

With some shotgun owners, if someone buys a more expensive gun it's an unnecessary extravagance and they're a snob -- and, if it's less expensive it's a POS and they're a cheapskate. We're all going down different highways in life, and what works best for me may not for you -- get over it.
zippy13 is online now Report Post

Now that made me smile.

Pete

roy reali · November 4, 2010, 02:57 PM

Where do you guys rate Benelli shotguns?

markj · November 4, 2010, 03:33 PM

When Ifirst started working on cars for a living, I went and got me some sears craftsman tools. Guess what? They could not handle the day to day stress working on cars for a job puts on them. For the casual home mechanic they work fine, but use them hundreds of times a day and they break. Dont get that with snap on or mac tools, so as a mechanic I learned to spend the extra cash. I still have them tools, some are 30 years old and work as the day they were made.

Bout the only way I can try to explain this.

I do like my remingtons, Iwore a 1100 out shooting trap. Took a few years but it is so loose now it wont cycle at times. I can go buy a rebuild kit for it cost about 175.00 I belive and I will someday. Not sure I can get that for the double I got for my son.

BigJimP · November 4, 2010, 04:00 PM

Personally, I rate Benelli's semi-auto's very high. I don't have any experience with their pump guns / but I don't see or hear many bad things about them. I see a lot of the semi-autos on the sporting clays courses around here.

I've had two Benelli's for about 5 yrs now / both Benelli Super Sport models, one in 12ga and one in 20ga - both very good guns. I bought a 3rd one - used - in 12ga - and passed it on to one of my buddies. Since then - I've had 6 shooting buddies - all buy Benelli Super Sport models in 12ga - some of them are using them as their primary sporting gun / and put their O/U's away.

With the synthetic stocks / and the comfort tech system in them - I think they're soft shooting. They cycle very quickly. They shoot very cleanly because they're inertia vs gas operated. They are easy to fully strip / take trigger group, bolt out, etc - and easily clean in 10 min / put them back into battery.

I don't shoot the Benelli's a lot / but I probably have close to 10,000 shells thru the 12ga / maybe 5,000 thru the 20ga .... I use them as a "travel gun" so I only have to take 1 gun on a trip - shoot some sporting, do some hunting, some skeet or trap. My grandkids think the design is cool on the super sports - and they shoot them a little. I use both of them for training new shooters / young shooters ...and they all seem to like them.

One rap I do hear on the Benelli's - is they won't cycle loads under 1225 or 1250 fps ...but I can tell you both of my guns will cycle even very light loads, like 7/8 oz in 12ga as long as its at least 1200 fps. My 12ga will not cycle any loads, regardless of how much shot in shell ( like 1 1/8 oz ) at 1150 fps. The 20ga I have will not cycle 7/8 oz loads at 1150 fps either reliably. I keep my guns very clean / and well lubed ...so that may be a difference on my guns.

Mine also have the changeable soft comb inserts / for different heights - and changeable recoil pads - for different length of pull - and lefties or righties ...and I have some grandkids that are lefties ...so its a handy gun / that I can change out quickly ....shorten up length of pull, change a comb pad etc ...because my grandkids range from 9 - 19 .... It makes them very versatile ...in my opinion.

I have a son in the Marine Corps - and they speak very highly of their version of the M-4 model ( I don't remember what they call it ) - but it does very well in the jungles and swamps / and in Afghanistan ( its gas operated - so its different ). I have fired M-2's and M-4's - and they seemed fine to me too / but I have no need for a tactical shotgun so I've never bought one.

I see a lot of them duck hunting in Arkansas - in the last few years ( not sure of model numbers )....black eagle, I think ...

I see a few of the wood stock versions at the gun clubs - they have a lot more recoil - Montefeltro, etc ...than the comfort tech stock versions. I shot a round of skeet with the Montefeltro ...and it was ok / but I'll take my Super Sport models over it.

The only negative comment I consistently hear on Benelli is cost. The Euro to the dollar has screwed up the pricing ...with Super Sport models, new, in my area retailing for about $ 1,875 vs the $ 1350 or so I paid for each of them a few yrs ago... But at $ 1,875 - there are a lot of Berettas that are cheaper / different since they're gas guns ...but good guns as well for less money.

None of my buddies that have Super Sports are looking to give them up / I think they're a good long term gun.

hardhat harry · November 4, 2010, 04:44 PM

If a manufacturer makes 100,000 inexpensive shotguns and has 1% with issues, we WILL hear about it.

If a manufacturer of custom made $3000 shotguns makes 100 per year, with 1% having issues...we probably will not hear about it.

Sometimes it is a numbers game. I just hope that the guns we buy are in the 99% group!

zippy13 · November 4, 2010, 05:03 PM

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If a manufacturer of custom made $3000 shotguns makes 100 per year, with 1% having issues...we probably will not hear about it.

Wow, only $3,000, where have you been getting your custom shotguns? Seems I've been paying way too much for mine.

roy reali · November 4, 2010, 05:28 PM

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I rate Benelli's semi-auto's very high.

Agreed, everyone I have ever asked about this brand gives it high marks. It sounds as though it might be the Cadillac of shotguns. I went to a gun store to look at guns, particulary shotguns, today. It is a store that is a competitor of Cabelas.

You know they had tons of Benelli Shotguns. In fact they had Benelli/Franchi shotguns and Benelli/Stoeger shotguns. Apparently they are attaching their names to imported shotguns. Here is my question.

Benelli has a good name. These imported guns are suppose to be POS's. Then why would Benelli put their name on them? Why would they risk their reputation? If the imports are so bad, then it would be like BMW putting their seal of approval on Yugos. They won't because BMW as a certain panache to it.

So, either Benelli is unconcerned about hurting their image or unconcerned about the quality of guns they are putting their name on. I wonder which it is?

oneounceload · November 4, 2010, 05:58 PM

Benelli and the others are part of the Beretta Group. Beretta allows each unit to operate independently, while sharing some basic functions to save costs.

Remember, at one time, Ford put out the Lincoln and the Pinto - same analogy. Certain guns are built to specific price points.

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If a manufacturer of custom made $3000 shotguns makes 100 per year, with 1% having issues...we probably will not hear about it.

You're missing at LEAST 1 zero

BigJimP · November 4, 2010, 06:12 PM

Come on Roy ....now you're trying to say some of us said any gun imported is junk .... That is not what any of us said ....(and I don't happen to think that Cadillac or BMW make especially high quality automobiles either, but that has nothing to do with our discussion on O/U shotguns )....

Browning O/U's are imported ( the Citori line is made by Miroku in Japan )...
Beretta O/U's are imported ( they're made in Italy ) and so is Benelli ....

I endorsed Benelli .... / not the Franchi or Stoeger subsidiaries of Beretta Firearms... / Benelli doesn't even make an O/U ......and as far as I know has nothing to do with Franchi or Stoeger. If you're implying that Franchi and Stoeger are really Benelli's - stamped with different names - you are not correct. They are different divisions / and Benelli's quality should not be tainted with the issues that certainly Stoeger has had ....

Your point makes no sense ...and you are reaching on your comparions in my opinion.

zippy13 · November 4, 2010, 06:16 PM

Roy,
Beretta hasn't been making guns for nearly 500-years without learning a thing or two about marketing.

I suspect they saw the Benelli group as a threat to their markets, or adjacent markets, so they "joined" forces. Now, that they control Grouppo Benelli, they have guns (Stoeger and Franchi) below the Beretta gas auto-loaders, and the Benellis fit nicely between the gas guns and the Beretta O/Us. IIRC, Beretta also has interests in other gun makers. I'm hoping they will celebrate their 500th anniversary with some really special offerings in all price ranges.

roy reali · November 4, 2010, 06:28 PM

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Benelli doesn't even make an O/U ......and as far as I know has nothing to do with Franchi or Stoeger.

http://www.benelliusa.com

Look at the above website. You will indeed see that Benelli has added their name, thus their reputation, on Franchi and Stoeger guns. Yes, they don't make them. But it is their name on the line. Either Benelli thinks these imports are fine or they don't give a darn about their customers. Those are the only two logical conclusions.

If I was Mr. Benelli and Mr. Stoeger wanted to add my name in any way to his line of guns I would want to inspect them. I would have experts look at them and try them. If Mr. Stoeger's guns were POS's, my name wouldn't appear anywhere near their name. Even if I didn't make the gun, my name would be my word that his gun is good. And if my name was associated with high quality firearms, those other guns better be at least the equal of mine dollar-wise.

Again, either Benelli is unconcerned with the quality of these imports or they are unconcerned with thier customers. Please come up with a different logical conclusion.

nogo · November 4, 2010, 06:31 PM

I have two Stoeger 20 ga coach guns bought used at a great deal. After test firing each, I cleaned them and then placed the guns in strategic locations in my house. They serve my purpose. From reading about cowboy action shooting I learned that these guns start to break down after 1500-2000 rds. To me it's not an issue because I know their limitations, and I'm also aware that I would have a difficult time finding spare parts or even locating a non voice mail voice to speak with about issues. The second half of the former sentence is also a lmitation.

oneounceload · November 4, 2010, 06:49 PM

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If I was Mr. Benelli and Mr. Stoeger wanted to add my name in any way to his line of guns I would want to inspect them. I would have experts look at them and try them. If Mr. Stoeger's guns were POS's, my name wouldn't appear anywhere near their name. Even if I didn't make the gun, my name would be my word that his gun is good. And if my name was associated with high quality firearms, those other guns better be at least the equal of mine dollar-wise.

Again, either Benelli is unconcerned with the quality of these imports or they are unconcerned with thier customers. Please come up with a different logical conclusion.

Guess you missed my Ford analogy or chose to ignore it because it refutes your attempt at trolling for an argument.

Benelli acquired those brands and became acquired by Beretta Group. BG makes guns at many different price points, including those "POS" as you like to refer to them. With the exception of the upper-level guns, most makers make a variety of products to suit a variety of budgets. Stoegers are bargain basement, move up to Franchi for mid-range, and then to Benelli for their higher end. This isn't rocket science or hard to understand

roy reali · November 4, 2010, 07:03 PM

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Benelli acquired those brands and became acquired by Beretta Group.

So, its Beretta that is going to sully their name.

The cheap imports are putting the Benelli or Beretta or whatever name they chose on their guns to bolster their image. So, what's in it for Benelli and/or Beretta.

In this thread, some have mentioned that certain import guns have a 70 to 80 percent failure rate. I refuse to accept the premise that two of the finer gun companies will put their names on any product, for any price, that will hurt that imagine. Unless, they are just in it for money and are trying to dupe customers. If its just profit motive, then I will lose all respect for them.

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Guess you missed my Ford analogy or chose to ignore it because it refutes your attempt at trolling for an argument.

Ford also makes Lincolns, their luxury brand. You notice that Ford doesn't appear anywhere on a Lincoln car. Their is a reason.

Now, if Beretta and/or Benelli put their name on any gun, it does create a certain image and certain expectations. Maybe most of here on TFL know the difference between an importer and a manufacturer. What about a novice that doesn't. They go into a gun shop and buy a Benelli/Stoeger over and under. Either Benelli is a an unshady company or an unconcerned one.

Which is it?

BigJimP · November 4, 2010, 07:04 PM

Your logic has holes in it big enough to drive a dump truck thru Roy ....lots of big corporations buy up other companies for lots of reasons ...and let them operate independtly like Beretta has... Not all divisions in a corporation make products at the same level of quality. In fact often - in my view - the corporations leave their divisions independent / let them compete / keep the engineering depts separate .... and sometimes they intentionally keep one division at a lower quality level - to keep the prices on that line down - and attract customers at that lower price point.

I seriously doubt Benelli has anything to do with Franchi or Stoeger ....and I know the parts of the similar models are not interchangeable 100%.

If you're implying the gun store you visited today - says all Benelli, Franchi and Stoeger shotguns are of equal quality ...you're being misled in my opinion ( maybe because the retailer has a bigger margin on one brand over the other / or excess inventory / or he or she is just plain guessing ...who knows ) and I've reached the point where I no longer care.

Let's just agree to disagree man ....

Have a good evening .... I'm closing my office and heading to the range ...for a little handgun practice ....

roy reali · November 4, 2010, 07:12 PM

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Your logic has holes in it big enough to drive a dump truck thru

Show me the wholes.

So you are saying a name is worthless. Benelli's name on any gun is a blessing from them. Or they are crooked and are trying to rip people off. Which is it?

I start a shotgun making company. I want to call them the Big Jim P Shotguns. I send you a model and you discover its a POS. Will you let me put your name on it?

I say that imported shotguns are fine. Benelli seems to agree with me.

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I seriously doubt Benelli has anything to do with Franchi or Stoeger

Did I make up the website I referenced above? Scroll down to the bottom of the Benelli USA website and there you will see the names Stoeger and Franchi. They at least share a website. And what name appears first and largest, Benelli. I assume they are the authors of it. I assume they know the names of the other companies on the site. I assume they know the quality of those other guns.

Again, is Benelli blessing those other guns or are they trying to dupe customers? Please, someone, answer this.

oneounceload · November 4, 2010, 07:36 PM

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I say that imported shotguns are fine

That was never a point of contention - you're just arguing for the sake of arguing - enjoy your Stoeger or whatever you bought

Maybe you can read up on marketing, price points, branding, etc.....then it might make sense to you
And I'm done with this one as well

roy reali · November 4, 2010, 07:42 PM

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Glad it works for you and shoots where you point - guess you got one made on a Tuesday.......if all you are doing is what you have been doing, good for you, hope it continues..............every maker, even Jennings, turns out one now and again that works

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That was never a point of contention - you're just arguing for the sake of arguing - enjoy your Stoeger or whatever you bought

Comparing any gun to Jennings is not high praise. Maybe Benelli will one day add Jennings to their line of firearms.

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I will also tell you that 2 or 3 out of 10 guns that come out of some of these mfg's seem to be pretty good .

Again, not high praise.

You are right, I don't understand marketing. I do understand what a name means. If I sign my name to a check its my promise its good. If Benelli puts their name on a gun, weather they made or not, its their promise that its good. I don't expect the gun to be of Jenning quality or have three-quarters failure rate.

November 4, 2010, 12:21 PM	#82
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	I agree with Dave - if we're going to continue this debate - lets keep it civil ! Everything I've said about this topic is only my opinion Roy ....its not a scientific blind study ... - and I hope it came accross as my opinion / not a study. Where can you go and read about issues on these guns - other forums like Shotgun World, and on this forum too - where someone says they have a problem, etc ...but like any site / or column or whatever ...you have to understand the perspective of the writer. I have talked to one of the more senior sales guys at my Cabela's store about a year ago - and I have no way to prove it - but he told me they were getting most all of the TriStar O/U's they sold back for warranty issues. But I believe they have a 5 yr warranty on them as well ...so hopefully they fixed those guns and the issues aren't just repeating themselves. They also sell Browning, Beretta, etc of course. I believe they try and give the customer what they want - and I doubt their sales guys would tell anyone their TriStar models are as good a gun as any of their Beretta or Brownings - but I hear a lot of bad info at gun counters --- most any time I'm standing around. I have a friend in the retail gun business - and he buys and sells hundreds of used guns every week (and a wide range of shotguns / tactical to high end target guns ) / and he's told me he will not buy or take in trade any more Baikals or TriStar's ...because he can't get parts and his gunsmith was having too many problems with them .....and he also tells me he's got too many used Mossberg and Remington low end O/U's and can't sell them ...and he tells me he will take any Browning or Beretta O/U he can get - no matter how beat up it might be - because at the right price - he can always sell them. Another gun he likes to see come in is a Ruger O/U - especially the older ones - because they're less expensive and he says they're good sellers. He's also a dealer that special orders, inventories and sells a lot of new guns - but on the new side, he tends to stay with Browning and Beretta on his O/U's - and more Brownings than Berettas. I don't own any of the guns I'm saying negative things about / and I won't be buying any of them to test / but I also won't change my mind either. How many of these guns have I seen --- I don't know / but I'd say probably 200 or more in the last few years. Again, its not scientific - but I think I've seen about 30% of them were ok / 70% had issues... I wish some of these guns were better / because I think there is a need for "casual" shooters to be able to buy a gun at a fair price that will give them a 25,000 shell life without a lot of mechanical issues. Not everyone can afford $ 1,500 - $ 3,000 for a shotgun and I get that ... But when someone on this forum / or other sites I visit - asks about a good solid long term O/U ....until I see proof otherwise --- I will continue to tell them, in my opinion, Browning and Beretta give you a lot of gun for your money. If I had to pick one less expensive gun ...for them to take a chance on - it would probably be the Ruger - but I have not been that impressed with the fit and finish on the Rugers I've seen lately. I go to the gunshows in my area most every month ...and I love talking to guys about what they're selling .....( and I hear all kinds of stuff that borders on mis-info ...in my opinion )... Am I biased - sure --- in terms of shotguns, I shoot primarily Browning O/U's - and I have about 15 of them or so / the only pump guns I have are Browning BPS models / I only have a couple of semi-autos and I prefer Benelli (on handguns I have several Sig's - but mostly I collect and shoot high end 1911's and older S&W revolvers ) because its what fits me / my hands, etc ...and what I like ! You won't see me comment hardly at all on tactical shotguns ...because I have no interest in them and my experience is 35 yrs old ... so that's my perspective and Bias .... I do not own any Beretta O/U shotguns / I won one, at a sporting clays tournament...and traded it in (new in box) - for a new Browning O/U. I think Beretta makes a good solid gun / but they don't fit me. I am considering one of the new Beretta semi-auto UGB Trap models ...for the heck of it ... Stay well / and good luck at the show this weekend - hope you find a good deal on something you want .... Last edited by BigJimP; November 4, 2010 at 12:31 PM.

November 4, 2010, 02:57 PM	#84
roy reali Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 3,248	Benelli Where do you guys rate Benelli shotguns?

November 4, 2010, 04:00 PM	#86
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Personally, I rate Benelli's semi-auto's very high. I don't have any experience with their pump guns / but I don't see or hear many bad things about them. I see a lot of the semi-autos on the sporting clays courses around here. I've had two Benelli's for about 5 yrs now / both Benelli Super Sport models, one in 12ga and one in 20ga - both very good guns. I bought a 3rd one - used - in 12ga - and passed it on to one of my buddies. Since then - I've had 6 shooting buddies - all buy Benelli Super Sport models in 12ga - some of them are using them as their primary sporting gun / and put their O/U's away. With the synthetic stocks / and the comfort tech system in them - I think they're soft shooting. They cycle very quickly. They shoot very cleanly because they're inertia vs gas operated. They are easy to fully strip / take trigger group, bolt out, etc - and easily clean in 10 min / put them back into battery. I don't shoot the Benelli's a lot / but I probably have close to 10,000 shells thru the 12ga / maybe 5,000 thru the 20ga .... I use them as a "travel gun" so I only have to take 1 gun on a trip - shoot some sporting, do some hunting, some skeet or trap. My grandkids think the design is cool on the super sports - and they shoot them a little. I use both of them for training new shooters / young shooters ...and they all seem to like them. One rap I do hear on the Benelli's - is they won't cycle loads under 1225 or 1250 fps ...but I can tell you both of my guns will cycle even very light loads, like 7/8 oz in 12ga as long as its at least 1200 fps. My 12ga will not cycle any loads, regardless of how much shot in shell ( like 1 1/8 oz ) at 1150 fps. The 20ga I have will not cycle 7/8 oz loads at 1150 fps either reliably. I keep my guns very clean / and well lubed ...so that may be a difference on my guns. Mine also have the changeable soft comb inserts / for different heights - and changeable recoil pads - for different length of pull - and lefties or righties ...and I have some grandkids that are lefties ...so its a handy gun / that I can change out quickly ....shorten up length of pull, change a comb pad etc ...because my grandkids range from 9 - 19 .... It makes them very versatile ...in my opinion. I have a son in the Marine Corps - and they speak very highly of their version of the M-4 model ( I don't remember what they call it ) - but it does very well in the jungles and swamps / and in Afghanistan ( its gas operated - so its different ). I have fired M-2's and M-4's - and they seemed fine to me too / but I have no need for a tactical shotgun so I've never bought one. I see a lot of them duck hunting in Arkansas - in the last few years ( not sure of model numbers )....black eagle, I think ... I see a few of the wood stock versions at the gun clubs - they have a lot more recoil - Montefeltro, etc ...than the comfort tech stock versions. I shot a round of skeet with the Montefeltro ...and it was ok / but I'll take my Super Sport models over it. The only negative comment I consistently hear on Benelli is cost. The Euro to the dollar has screwed up the pricing ...with Super Sport models, new, in my area retailing for about $ 1,875 vs the $ 1350 or so I paid for each of them a few yrs ago... But at $ 1,875 - there are a lot of Berettas that are cheaper / different since they're gas guns ...but good guns as well for less money. None of my buddies that have Super Sports are looking to give them up / I think they're a good long term gun. Last edited by BigJimP; November 4, 2010 at 04:06 PM.

November 4, 2010, 06:49 AM	#77
lizziedog1 Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2005 Posts: 289	I was just looking at the CZ website. All there guns, shotguns included, have a five year waranty. Most used guns I have seen come "As Is" on the price tag. That means that if you pull the trigger on it tomorrow and it don't go bang, you could be SOL. With a new CZ you could fire one hundred times tomorrow, and the day after and continue nonstop for five years until you are SOL. Those bargain used shotguns don't seem like such bargain after all.

November 4, 2010, 09:07 AM	#79
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	This thread is teetering on closure.... I shoot 6-7K a year at clays, maybe 100 shells at game in a good year. Some of my favorite shotguns cost less than $300, and they've held up well. Of course, many of them are 870s, which defy the Glitch Gremlins. 6-7K loads a year is not much by competition standards. It's enough though, to weed out a few sub quality guns that I no longer own. Shotguns of known reliability and longevity are not necessarily expensive. Brent's Mossbergs and my Remingtons are cases in point. So are Model 11s, 12s, A-5s, 311s, etc. With the exception of minty A-5s, all can be found for a few hundred and will last longer than any of us here. Off brands are a crap shoot. I've had too many folks on the line have troubles with imported sub quality junk to think there's some great bargains out there that are made in Uzbekistan,etc. Others go the distance, at least for now, but who knows for how long? Finally, I never shot skeet with a Saiga. I did take the one I had on loan to the range at PGC and shot Chinese Trap with the Geezer Squad. They got to shoot it a little and liked it. The Geezers, G*d Bless them, are opinionated, elderly, and own shotguns like Model 21 Winchesters, Parker SxS 20 gauges and Model 12 trap guns. They tried a few shots each with that Saiga and liked it. Snobs? No. Shotgunners? Heck yes!!

November 4, 2010, 11:57 AM	#81
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	This and similar threads remind me of an adage about driving. Most highway drivers share the opinion: "Anyone driving faster than me is a maniac, and anyone going slower is a road hog." With some shotgun owners, if someone buys a more expensive gun it's an unnecessary extravagance and they're a snob -- and, if it's less expensive it's a POS and they're a cheapskate. We're all going down different highways in life, and what works best for me may not for you -- get over it.

November 4, 2010, 03:33 PM	#85
markj Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Location: Crescent Iowa Posts: 2,971	When Ifirst started working on cars for a living, I went and got me some sears craftsman tools. Guess what? They could not handle the day to day stress working on cars for a job puts on them. For the casual home mechanic they work fine, but use them hundreds of times a day and they break. Dont get that with snap on or mac tools, so as a mechanic I learned to spend the extra cash. I still have them tools, some are 30 years old and work as the day they were made. Bout the only way I can try to explain this. I do like my remingtons, Iwore a 1100 out shooting trap. Took a few years but it is so loose now it wont cycle at times. I can go buy a rebuild kit for it cost about 175.00 I belive and I will someday. Not sure I can get that for the double I got for my son.

November 4, 2010, 04:44 PM	#87
hardhat harry Senior Member Join Date: August 27, 2010 Location: I've moved... Posts: 233	If a manufacturer makes 100,000 inexpensive shotguns and has 1% with issues, we WILL hear about it. If a manufacturer of custom made $3000 shotguns makes 100 per year, with 1% having issues...we probably will not hear about it. Sometimes it is a numbers game. I just hope that the guns we buy are in the 99% group!

November 4, 2010, 06:12 PM	#91
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Come on Roy ....now you're trying to say some of us said any gun imported is junk .... That is not what any of us said ....(and I don't happen to think that Cadillac or BMW make especially high quality automobiles either, but that has nothing to do with our discussion on O/U shotguns ).... Browning O/U's are imported ( the Citori line is made by Miroku in Japan )... Beretta O/U's are imported ( they're made in Italy ) and so is Benelli .... I endorsed Benelli .... / not the Franchi or Stoeger subsidiaries of Beretta Firearms... / Benelli doesn't even make an O/U ......and as far as I know has nothing to do with Franchi or Stoeger. If you're implying that Franchi and Stoeger are really Benelli's - stamped with different names - you are not correct. They are different divisions / and Benelli's quality should not be tainted with the issues that certainly Stoeger has had .... Your point makes no sense ...and you are reaching on your comparions in my opinion.

November 4, 2010, 06:16 PM	#92
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	Roy, Beretta hasn't been making guns for nearly 500-years without learning a thing or two about marketing. I suspect they saw the Benelli group as a threat to their markets, or adjacent markets, so they "joined" forces. Now, that they control Grouppo Benelli, they have guns (Stoeger and Franchi) below the Beretta gas auto-loaders, and the Benellis fit nicely between the gas guns and the Beretta O/Us. IIRC, Beretta also has interests in other gun makers. I'm hoping they will celebrate their 500th anniversary with some really special offerings in all price ranges.

November 4, 2010, 06:31 PM	#94
nogo Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2009 Location: central texas Posts: 215	I have two Stoeger 20 ga coach guns bought used at a great deal. After test firing each, I cleaned them and then placed the guns in strategic locations in my house. They serve my purpose. From reading about cowboy action shooting I learned that these guns start to break down after 1500-2000 rds. To me it's not an issue because I know their limitations, and I'm also aware that I would have a difficult time finding spare parts or even locating a non voice mail voice to speak with about issues. The second half of the former sentence is also a lmitation.

November 4, 2010, 07:04 PM	#97
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Your logic has holes in it big enough to drive a dump truck thru Roy ....lots of big corporations buy up other companies for lots of reasons ...and let them operate independtly like Beretta has... Not all divisions in a corporation make products at the same level of quality. In fact often - in my view - the corporations leave their divisions independent / let them compete / keep the engineering depts separate .... and sometimes they intentionally keep one division at a lower quality level - to keep the prices on that line down - and attract customers at that lower price point. I seriously doubt Benelli has anything to do with Franchi or Stoeger ....and I know the parts of the similar models are not interchangeable 100%. If you're implying the gun store you visited today - says all Benelli, Franchi and Stoeger shotguns are of equal quality ...you're being misled in my opinion ( maybe because the retailer has a bigger margin on one brand over the other / or excess inventory / or he or she is just plain guessing ...who knows ) and I've reached the point where I no longer care. Let's just agree to disagree man .... Have a good evening .... I'm closing my office and heading to the range ...for a little handgun practice ....