ugh. SD ammo - Page 3

hogdogs · July 21, 2009, 09:25 PM

Skittles thrown from the strong hand beat naughty words every time...

I too, would choose a 7 1/2 over a fist fight or nothing at all. That is how I choose to plan and train for the possible need to use lethal force. Since I opted to engross myself in that one 20 gauge I am forever stuck with "small balls" buckshot and really entertain the idea of practicing for a sure shot everytime.

Brent

hogdogs · July 21, 2009, 09:33 PM

Quote:

"7 1/2 birdshot for HD?" and the replies are "NOOOO! YOU'RE WRONG!!!!"

Planned? Absolutely would I consider myself wrong to plan for H/D with 7 1/2. I won't even give up one slot in my mag for anything under the #4 buck I have had to resort to due to inventory limitations of the 20. But with planning no one has to resort to a birdshot for HD

Brent

ADB · July 21, 2009, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Ballistic gel is not a comparison medium for humans or any other animal.

Actually, it IS a comparison medium for human tissue. That's one of it's main purposes, to provide comparative study of penetration through tissue.

Also, to address another comment somebody made--birdshot sure as hell will go through a wall, and still be fatal on the other side. It should never be treated lightly.

Ian0351 · July 21, 2009, 11:19 PM

Screw it, throw 'em in the trunk of your car. Someday, regardless of whether or not you even have the shotgun with you, having 25 shells worth of powder and 25 shotshell primers may come in handy... hardcore MacGuyver style.
If you can find some land that is public or private that's not too far away, shooting clays is great practice at both shooting moving targets and time-limited physics calculations... and a whole lot of freaking fun. 25 shells go pretty quick.

.45 COLT · July 22, 2009, 03:04 AM

Kyo asked:

Quote:

And what am I supposed to do with it now?

Go to the local Trap field and shoot a round. It'll give you some practice with your new gun and use the shells. You might like the game so much you'll take it up regular.

DC

tmd11111 · July 22, 2009, 06:01 AM

For all you naysayers I posted this on the first page of this thread.

Quote:

tell ya what, take a 12ga. or even a 20ga. with a 1oz load of 7 1/2 shot and put one into a sheet of 3/4 plywood at 15 feet....It will change your opinion.

I would like someone to try this and then take a picture and post it on here. I would do it for you but I am still in Iraq for 3 more weeks. I have tried this many years ago. IIRC almost every bit of the shot went into an area the size of my fist. It also made a quarter sized exit hole. Granted 3/4" plywood is not the same as a BG but it will show you what it will do at such a close distance. Most people don't realize that at that close of a range the shot hasn't had much distance to spread out yet meaning that almost every bit of shot will be concentrated in one small area.

Kyo · July 22, 2009, 08:01 AM

pump 7+1 with the 2 3/4 and 5+1 with 3 inchers.
45 colt you might have a point. I will look for a skeet/trap place. It can be fun I never shot a shotgun before I need to learn

MLeake · July 22, 2009, 08:14 AM

That doesn't add up.... difference of 1/4" per shell, 5 3" shells take up an extra 1.25" over 5 2.75"; that isn't enough difference for 1 full round, let alone 2. Just curious as to how this is happening in your tube?

greyson97 · July 22, 2009, 08:29 AM

Quote:

That doesn't add up.... difference of 1/4" per shell, 5 3" shells take up an extra 1.25" over 5 2.75"; that isn't enough difference for 1 full round, let alone 2. Just curious as to how this is happening in your tube?

magic

Kyo · July 22, 2009, 09:39 AM

go ask mossberg. i just know that it holds a few less if they are 3 inchers

shortwave · July 22, 2009, 12:38 PM

[QUOTE]tell ya what,take a 12ga. or even a 20ga. with a 1 oz load of 71/2 shot and put one into a sheet of 3/4" plywood at 15 ft. .... It will change your opinion. QUOTE] tmd11111, first and foremost I want to take this opportunity to 'THANK YOU' for your services. May God Bless You and insure your safe trip home. I don`t think anyone here has argued that its an "impossibilty" for 7 1/2 birdshot to be lethal but rather that if one is planning to use a shotgun for HD there is just simply better loads for the purpose. Kyo, apparently has absolutely no experience/knowledge with his shotgun and to even suggest that a 7 1/2 target/game load of birdshot is remotely reasonable for HD is not giving him the best advice. If thats the only ammo he has or can afford thats one thing(better than throwing rocks) but if its a case where he`s planning his HD strategy there`s simply just to many other SD loads avail. even if its an apartment setting. All that said, Kyo is a long way from being comfortable enough with his new shotgun for defending his castle. Kyo, when you`ve got some wear marks on the furniture of your new shotgun, only then should you worry about using it for HD. By that time you`ll know what HD load to use for your situation.

MagnumWill · July 22, 2009, 11:57 PM

Quote:

So, why would the guy tell me to get birdshot for self defense?

That's a good darn question. Ask him if he hunts 200lb animals with 7-1/2 shot. Nope? go figure.

Quote:

doubt any human can take a load of bird shot to the chest and be so unfazed they can properly return fire.

...ever heard of PCP? He might think you're tickling him with that shot. Just IMHO

You know what they need to come out with to easily put aside this debate? #2 Peopleshot. I'd buy a bunch of it.

Kyo · July 23, 2009, 01:00 AM

im not worried about defending my castle. i got my 45 as well.

ADB · July 23, 2009, 01:14 PM

Quote:

...ever heard of PCP? He might think you're tickling him with that shot. Just IMHO

PCP doesn't allow you to survive having your heart and lungs turned into sausage. At typical HD ranges, birdshot will do that.

Steamboatsig · July 23, 2009, 03:34 PM

For christ sakes, get a cross chest bandolier and put the box of 7 1/2 shot in the holders. That way you can look even more intimidating with your shotgun loaded with 00 buck.

shortwave · July 23, 2009, 03:59 PM

Kyo post #63:

Quote:

I`m not worried about defending my castle, I`ve got my 45 as well

Kyo post #1:

Quote:

Anyway, I ask what kind of self defense rounds I should pick up

My apologies. I thought this thread was about you not knowing the best 12GA. SD/HD round for defending your castle

. If you bought the # 7 1/2`s for bird or small game hunting, skeet or trap, you`ll do just fine after you pattern your shotgun and select the right choke. You may have to buy more 7 1/2`s before finding the right choke, 25 rds. may not be enough. May I suggest a nice I/C to start out with. Thats always been my fav.

A_McDougal · July 23, 2009, 04:52 PM

PCP?! When was the last time you heard of anyone using PCP? (Besides the bank robbers in body armor, and that was one unique case). PCP is a straw man argument. Alcohol, cocaine, ecstasy, cannabis, painkillers, sure. Planning your self defense around PCP is silly. Somebody on PCP isn't going to be driving, and he isn't going to be wandering long distances and happening across your homestead.

greyson97 · July 23, 2009, 05:22 PM

I also wonder if someone on pcp is coherent enough to operate a firearm, accurately shoot, or return fire if shot by a "non lethal" 7 1/2 birshot load

shortwave · July 23, 2009, 08:01 PM

DELETE. DOUBLE POST. MUSTA BEEN THE CANNABIS COMMENT( shakes head)

shortwave · July 23, 2009, 08:04 PM

Cannabis??? If the BG smoked cannabis, shoot him with a twinky out of a slingshot

. Don`t know to many cannabis smokers energitic enough to break into anything. The meth and pill heads are the ones to worry about.

.45 COLT · July 23, 2009, 09:23 PM

tmd11111 wrote

Quote:

For all you naysayers I posted this on the first page of this thread.

Quote:

tell ya what, take a 12ga. or even a 20ga. with a 1oz load of 7 1/2 shot and put one into a sheet of 3/4 plywood at 15 feet....It will change your opinion.

I would like someone to try this and then take a picture and post it on here.

I've shot a lot of different loads at a lot of different targets, but never 7 1/2 shot at 3/4" plywood, so I found me a piece of scrap 3/4" stuff and set it up. (Got my own range so it's no problem to try 'most anything). With Remington 1 ounce load of 7 1/2s, 1290 FPS, 15 feet back, it punched through, hole abput 1 1/2" diameter. 27 pellets got out of the central mass and were left behind in the wood. Don't know it proves much about any SD use, but it would mess up a person pretty badly at that range. My camera quit so no picture.

DC

hogdogs · July 23, 2009, 09:44 PM

When the "plywood man" breaks in... light his butt up with the 7 1/2!
Now this will cost you but you can pick it free of lead and eat it...
Get you a rear quarter of beef and hang it from the hoof end and shoot it. Let me know how the depth and bone damage went! Bet you don't break the leg bone. I also doubt highly you will have a 5 inch exit wound... Further... i bet you a shot of unaged corn liquor there is little or no exiting shot...
Why would anyone suggest less than flesh to determine flesh injury.
As for ballistic gel, short of many scientific parameters being proven, Penetration isn't considered equal to flesh. I think it is said... 12 inches in gel is close to 8 inches in humans IIRC...
Keep it real folks!
This 10-12 inch pine tree dead as a doornail for a year needed MASSIVE number of rounds from 7 1/2 to slugs likely nearing a hundred if not more than 100...
It finally fell when Junior worked his but off to rock it.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...k+tree+service
Brent

.45 COLT · July 23, 2009, 10:05 PM

I believe that's what I said.

Quote:

Don't know it proves much about any SD use

DC

tmd11111 · July 23, 2009, 10:54 PM

Quote:

With Remington 1 ounce load of 7 1/2s, 1290 FPS, 15 feet back, it punched through, hole abput 1 1/2" diameter. 27 pellets got out of the central mass and were left behind in the wood.

This is the point I was trying to make. At SD distances any sized shot you use doesn't have a chance to spread out yet. That hole is going to be close to the same size be it #00 or #7's. Unless of course your scatter gun has a 12" barrel..

hogdogs · July 23, 2009, 11:08 PM

So what purpose would a 12 inch barrel serve? The spread will vary only from tenths of an inch to possibly 1/2 inch wider than a 20 inch barrel would yield... All that a 12" compared to a 20" barrel assimilates is the shooter being 8 inches further back...
Brent

July 21, 2009, 11:19 PM	#54
Ian0351 Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2009 Location: Washington Posts: 414	Screw it, throw 'em in the trunk of your car. Someday, regardless of whether or not you even have the shotgun with you, having 25 shells worth of powder and 25 shotshell primers may come in handy... hardcore MacGuyver style. If you can find some land that is public or private that's not too far away, shooting clays is great practice at both shooting moving targets and time-limited physics calculations... and a whole lot of freaking fun. 25 shells go pretty quick. __________________ You can have your churches, I'll keep my guns. Just keep your hands off my paycheck and your eyes out of my backyard. Join the Libertarian Party! http://www.lp.org Semper Fidelis

July 22, 2009, 08:14 AM	#58
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	7 2-3/4 vs 5-3 That doesn't add up.... difference of 1/4" per shell, 5 3" shells take up an extra 1.25" over 5 2.75"; that isn't enough difference for 1 full round, let alone 2. Just curious as to how this is happening in your tube?

July 23, 2009, 03:34 PM	#65
Steamboatsig Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2004 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 170	For christ sakes, get a cross chest bandolier and put the box of 7 1/2 shot in the holders. That way you can look even more intimidating with your shotgun loaded with 00 buck. __________________ "Having more bullets in your gun means having more chances to get good shot placement" - Gecko45 "Fingers off trigger, action open, and check barrel before even possibly pointing a gun [at] anyone"

July 23, 2009, 05:22 PM	#68
greyson97 Senior Member Join Date: June 29, 2009 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,284	I also wonder if someone on pcp is coherent enough to operate a firearm, accurately shoot, or return fire if shot by a "non lethal" 7 1/2 birshot load __________________ "Some people think they can outsmart me. Maybe, maybe. I've yet to meet one that can outsmart bullet." -Heavy si vis pacem, para bellum

July 23, 2009, 08:01 PM	#69
shortwave Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2007 Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO Posts: 5,970	DELETE. DOUBLE POST. MUSTA BEEN THE CANNABIS COMMENT( shakes head) Last edited by shortwave; July 23, 2009 at 08:07 PM.

July 21, 2009, 09:25 PM	#51
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	Skittles thrown from the strong hand beat naughty words every time... I too, would choose a 7 1/2 over a fist fight or nothing at all. That is how I choose to plan and train for the possible need to use lethal force. Since I opted to engross myself in that one 20 gauge I am forever stuck with "small balls" buckshot and really entertain the idea of practicing for a sure shot everytime. Brent

July 22, 2009, 08:01 AM	#57
Kyo Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Posts: 897	pump 7+1 with the 2 3/4 and 5+1 with 3 inchers. 45 colt you might have a point. I will look for a skeet/trap place. It can be fun I never shot a shotgun before I need to learn

July 22, 2009, 09:39 AM	#60
Kyo Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Posts: 897	go ask mossberg. i just know that it holds a few less if they are 3 inchers

July 22, 2009, 12:38 PM	#61
shortwave Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2007 Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO Posts: 5,970	[QUOTE]tell ya what,take a 12ga. or even a 20ga. with a 1 oz load of 71/2 shot and put one into a sheet of 3/4" plywood at 15 ft. .... It will change your opinion. QUOTE] tmd11111, first and foremost I want to take this opportunity to 'THANK YOU' for your services. May God Bless You and insure your safe trip home. I don`t think anyone here has argued that its an "impossibilty" for 7 1/2 birdshot to be lethal but rather that if one is planning to use a shotgun for HD there is just simply better loads for the purpose. Kyo, apparently has absolutely no experience/knowledge with his shotgun and to even suggest that a 7 1/2 target/game load of birdshot is remotely reasonable for HD is not giving him the best advice. If thats the only ammo he has or can afford thats one thing(better than throwing rocks) but if its a case where he`s planning his HD strategy there`s simply just to many other SD loads avail. even if its an apartment setting. All that said, Kyo is a long way from being comfortable enough with his new shotgun for defending his castle. Kyo, when you`ve got some wear marks on the furniture of your new shotgun, only then should you worry about using it for HD. By that time you`ll know what HD load to use for your situation.

July 23, 2009, 01:00 AM	#63
Kyo Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Posts: 897	im not worried about defending my castle. i got my 45 as well.

July 23, 2009, 04:52 PM	#67
A_McDougal Member Join Date: May 1, 2009 Posts: 48	PCP?! When was the last time you heard of anyone using PCP? (Besides the bank robbers in body armor, and that was one unique case). PCP is a straw man argument. Alcohol, cocaine, ecstasy, cannabis, painkillers, sure. Planning your self defense around PCP is silly. Somebody on PCP isn't going to be driving, and he isn't going to be wandering long distances and happening across your homestead.

July 23, 2009, 08:04 PM	#70
shortwave Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2007 Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO Posts: 5,970	Cannabis??? If the BG smoked cannabis, shoot him with a twinky out of a slingshot. Don`t know to many cannabis smokers energitic enough to break into anything. The meth and pill heads are the ones to worry about.

July 23, 2009, 09:44 PM	#72
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	When the "plywood man" breaks in... light his butt up with the 7 1/2! Now this will cost you but you can pick it free of lead and eat it... Get you a rear quarter of beef and hang it from the hoof end and shoot it. Let me know how the depth and bone damage went! Bet you don't break the leg bone. I also doubt highly you will have a 5 inch exit wound... Further... i bet you a shot of unaged corn liquor there is little or no exiting shot... Why would anyone suggest less than flesh to determine flesh injury. As for ballistic gel, short of many scientific parameters being proven, Penetration isn't considered equal to flesh. I think it is said... 12 inches in gel is close to 8 inches in humans IIRC... Keep it real folks! This 10-12 inch pine tree dead as a doornail for a year needed MASSIVE number of rounds from 7 1/2 to slugs likely nearing a hundred if not more than 100... It finally fell when Junior worked his but off to rock it. http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...k+tree+service Brent

July 23, 2009, 11:08 PM	#75
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	So what purpose would a 12 inch barrel serve? The spread will vary only from tenths of an inch to possibly 1/2 inch wider than a 20 inch barrel would yield... All that a 12" compared to a 20" barrel assimilates is the shooter being 8 inches further back... Brent