Extreme Bullets in 1911

[Poconolg]

I have been using 200gr Hard Cast SWC bullets in my 1911 for over 20 years with no problems. I use 4.6gr of Bullseye and they function perfectly and are very accurate. I tried a box of Extreme Bullets using their 200gr SWC bullets with the same load. About 1 or 2 out of a 7 round mag fails to eject. They extract from the chamber but get hung up on the slide. Went back to the Hard Cast and they worked fine. The gun is clean. Any ideas or load corrections? Thanks for any input on this problem.

[Don P]

I don't see what a change in bullet would cause case ejection problems but anything is possible. Extreme bullets the same hardness?? Seating depth may be causing a bit of lead build up at the chamber end where the case head spaces at. ( bullets identical in profile)?

[Jim Watson]

You could increase the load a bit.
Higher friction of copper on steel means lower velocity, less recoil. So a heaver powder charge to restore the same velocity might help. Although 4.6 gr BE is not a powderpuff.

[higgite]

I tried a box of Extreme Bullets using their 200gr SWC bullets with the same load.

Are the Xtremes hard cast or copper plated? They make both.

[Poconolg]

They are plated bullets

[kmw1954]

I would bump the powder charge up .1 or .2gr.

When I start new loads with plated bullets I always start very low. To the point that some will not lock the slide back on the final round. Moving up a grain or two has always seemed to solve this problem.

[T. O'Heir]

Failures to eject have nothing to do with the bullet used. 4.6 grains of Bullseye is the max load for a cast 200 already. So there's no increasing the load.
"...get hung up on the slide..." Where on the case? Where on the slide?

[kmw1954]

Once again I will disagree as Plated is Not Cast. Though most people seem to think so.

[Unclenick]

Alliant runs Bullseye rather higher with 230 grain loads. I expect the only reason for a 4.6 grain maximum on 200 grain LSWC's is concern for leading, not pressure. The plated bullet, unless its a paper-thin plate, shouldn't have any issues with adding a half a grain more powder.

[Nathan]

I would start load development over. The bullet is the biggest part of the equation.

[hdwhit]

Poconolg wrote:
Any ideas or load corrections?

Yes. You're switching to a new type of bullet. That means you have a new load, so start developing the load as a new load.

We tell people - or at least we're supposed to be telling them - to follow proper reloading and load development practices. For example, Hodgdon has this on the Reloading Education section of their website: http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/relo...ucation/safety

Follow loading recommendations exactly. Don't substitute components for those listed. Start loading with the minimum powder charge in the loads shown.

"Don't substitute components". What is Poconolg seeking to do? He's seeking to substitute a plated bullet for a lead bullet. He needs to follow procedure and treat this as a new load. We don't need to be encouraging him to do otherwise.

[kmw1954]

I do not load 45acp as I don't own one but a quick look at load data from Speer, Lyman and Western shows huge discrepancies and variations between lead and jacketed and when Western is thrown in with jacketed data.

Just a look at Speer and Lyman using a 200gr bullet with Bullseye shows disagreement.

Now I'm always reading that plated bullets should be treated between cast lead and mid-range jacketed. Well from What I see published mid-range jacketed with Bullseye would be about 5.5gr with a 200gr bullet.

[buck460XVR]

Originally Posted by kmw1954

Once again I will disagree as Plated is Not Cast. Though most people seem to think so.

I was told they were a swagged bullet and have always loaded them somewhere between loads for lead and jacketed. I think you are on the low side of the powder charge and would try something like 5 gr. That is what I run under my 200 gr Xtreme HPs and they eject just fine.

[Unclenick]

Buck,

The core is swaged, but then electroplated with copper or a copper alloy. For example, the Speer Gold Dot line is made this way and one of their technicians told me they engrave in rifling more easily than jacketed bullets and can often take more powder because of the resulting lower start pressure. The Ranier and Berry's bullets are also made this way, but I believe they use pure copper. Also, Berry's makes them available with extra heavy plating. These will all behave a little differently.


Kmw,

One factor in changing bullets is length. This affects how deeply the base sits in the case. Below is a photo of a pressure calculation. I believe Western has a pressure change graph for an example of a 9 mm bullet seated to different depths, to. So when you take the different bullet length and COL combinations into consideration, that's a good part of why you run into a lot of different load data for same-weight and construction bullets.



In the short powder column pistol bullets, the fact primers can unseat bullets and move them out before powder finishes burning will reduce pressure. Look at Hodgdon's data for 148 grain wadcutters in .38 Special and .357 Magnum over HP38/231. The Special actually has a larger powder charge. I verified with Hodgdon that this was a measured result they have on file and not a documentation error. The bullet getting moving ahead of burn completion is the only explanation I have come up with thus far. Bottom line, that primer unseating has probably prevented damage from hot loads where the trip up the loading ramp has jammed a bullet deeper into the case.

Poconolg,

Do the following calculation for your old bullet and the new one. If the number comes up shorter for the new bullet, this will explain why you need more powder.

Seating Depth = Case Length + Bullet Length - Cartridge Overall Length (COL)

Or, more specific to your cartridge:

.45 Auto Seating Depth = 0.898 inches + Bullet length - COL

[kmw1954]

unclenick that is something I learned very well all on my own.

When I first started using Berry's bullets I was unable to fine very much information that I thought was noteworthy. And searching the web and so many forums didn't yield much either.

In the 9mm family Berry has four bullets of the 124gr weight and every one is different in length. They are of course the Round Nose solid base, then the Round Nose Hollow Base then the Flat Nose in both solid and Hollow Bases and as best I can tell all get loaded to different lengths.. No this does not include their Hollow Points either.

For those unfamiliar the Berry's Hollow Base is quite substantial. It is not just a slight concave. Very close to what one would see in a cast hollow base wadcutter. Now for just a quick comparison the Speer #10 manual Load data for 38spl 148gr Bevel Base Wadcutter and a 148gr Hollow Base Wadcutter using Bullseye powder. These are Speer cast not hand cast.
BBWC start load 3.9gr, max load 4.5gr
HBWC start load 2.8gr, max load 3.1gr

Long ago when I still shot 38spl I loaded lots of both of these because both were readily available locally along with the Speer 158gr SWC.

[buck460XVR]

Originally Posted by Unclenick

Buck,

The core is swaged, but then electroplated with copper or a copper alloy.

Yes, I know. Kinda why they're called "plated".

Shoot a lot of plated, and hunt with Deep Curls.

That said, some plated bullets are "double struck", IOWs swaged again for consistent size, after being plated.

[Poconolg]

Loaded 100 45,s for the range today. Increased the powder charge to 4.9 and they functioned great. More accurate too.

[kmw1954]

Poconolg. that is great to hear and hope you come to enjoy shooting plated. I still believe as time goes by it's going to get harder to find places that will allow lead cast bullets because of environmental reasons. Especially at indoor ranges.

[Hammerhead]

Plated shoot slower than lead, reduced slide velocity, problems. Bump up load for plated.