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Old January 21, 2020, 01:21 AM   #101
JohnKSa
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To be fair, not everyone that showed up was from VA. Some were from surrounding states, but I saw signs in some pics indicating that the people holding them were from Michigan.
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Old January 21, 2020, 08:18 AM   #102
TBM900
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Quote:
Originally Posted by American Man View Post
You just threw out a bunch of numbers and opinion
Numbers that are easily verified, feel free to factually refute them.

Quote:
and you sound like you are the authority on the vast majority of gun owners in America.
I never stated a word about being an "authority", it's called an opinion.
But again, feel free to factually refute it.

Quote:
You crunch some numbers on NRA members the GOA and throw in a little extra... and then you do some more math by adding in forum subscribers and that is your highly educated OPINION of the VAST MAJORITY?
"Highly educated"....?
Cite where I used any such language...
Then when you are done doing that, feel free to factually refute my original statement.

Quote:
Oh... and thank you so much for the dictionary links.
No need to be so indignant, after all... you were the one who asked for definitions

Quote:
Have you ever wandered into... these people probably did not rise above your standard of lazy and apathetic.
Actually... You just helped make my point.
The go-to response for huge numbers of individuals whenever their 2A rights are blatantly threatened, is to go out and buy more guns, which is the very epitome of lazy.
Lazy in thought
Lazy in action
Lazy in effort

Literal BILLIONS spent on guns, ammunition, magazines, etc

Now lets compare that to the supposed "gold standard" of the NRA...
Over recent years they have generated a rough average of $350m/yr
Now divide that amongst its current 5.5m members
Which works out to something around $63.00 per member... or a couple boxes of ammo.

(its actually even worse in that a significant portion of their revenue comes from things like investments and large mega-donors)

For even more perspective, let's divide that among the estimate of 100m gun owners in the U.S.
That works out to $3.50 per gun owner
WoW... that's some serious commitment to the cause

Quote:
All because someone else doesn't Cite things to your satisfaction
Actually you were the one who took umbrage with my opinion.

Quote:
despite your less than high standard of fact gathering
You keep throwing out thinly veiled ad hominem... yet you have failed to factually refute a single thing.
I am all ears/eyes and open to correction if I've gotten anything blatantly wrong, Im not perfect and never claimed to be.

Quote:
you don't have to tear their opinion down point by point as if that is why you were put here on earth.
This coming from someone who doesn't like my opinion, and has yet to tare it down.
As I said before, I hope I'm wrong, that we are our own worst enemy in this fight.
But I have yet to see anyone provide any evidence to the contrary.
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Old January 21, 2020, 08:26 AM   #103
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Have you ever wandered into your local LGS after a mass shooting or terror attack and see empty shelves? Not even a NAA 22lr is left on the shelves where I live. All the stores throughout the state and neighboring states get wiped clean. Online, rifles that had 100+ in stock suddenly become Out of Stock. What about trying to buy ammo online? Out of stock. Suddenly all the CCW classes are all booked up. My opinion is that it was not the NRA and GOA members, that from Jan 2009- Jan 2016, who were the ones forming lines in gun stores and buying up every single box of ammo and signing up for basic CCW classes.
I'm guessing you are assuming everybody who trucked down to the LGS or went online were of a common mind? Same political persuasion? Or maybe 'some' who were in the middle of the 'bell curve'?

My oldest son, who is very left side of the 'curve', just bought a really sweet Ruger 556, I shot it yesterday..really nice..also cuz he is expecting a AR ban in the next year or so..hopefully grand fathered..
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Old January 21, 2020, 08:28 AM   #104
TBM900
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa View Post
To be fair, not everyone that showed up was from VA. Some were from surrounding states, but I saw signs in some pics indicating that the people holding them were from Michigan.
You are quite correct, which actually bodes worse for the gun owners of VA.
But it shouldn't be a surprise, just look at the voter turnout numbers that allowed them to get into this mess in the first place.
We have the same issue in my state, which will be in large part why we are on the short list of states likely to have a massive loss of 2A rights.

I talk to locals until I'm blue in the face about the dire straits we are in, and often get blank looks or shrugged shoulders. Others will be more vocal... "Oh you're crazy, they will never do that here". While some chest thump... "Ill turn over my guns one round at a time" then turn and walk off towards their $60,000 bro-dozer.

We (gun owners & patriots) are getting our asses kicked, in large part due to our own inaction.
Until we all admit this...
Until we all work to change it...
Until we put in even close to the effort, time, and money the left does...
I do not see any hope for our future.
We (gun owners & patriots) need to start sacrificing in major ways, or we are done.
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Old January 21, 2020, 01:55 PM   #105
American Man
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Originally Posted by TBM900 View Post
Numbers that are easily verified, feel free to factually refute them.


I never stated a word about being an "authority", it's called an opinion.
But again, feel free to factually refute it.


"Highly educated"....?
Cite where I used any such language...
Then when you are done doing that, feel free to factually refute my original statement.


No need to be so indignant, after all... you were the one who asked for definitions


Actually... You just helped make my point.
The go-to response for huge numbers of individuals whenever their 2A rights are blatantly threatened, is to go out and buy more guns, which is the very epitome of lazy.
Lazy in thought
Lazy in action
Lazy in effort

Literal BILLIONS spent on guns, ammunition, magazines, etc

Now lets compare that to the supposed "gold standard" of the NRA...
Over recent years they have generated a rough average of $350m/yr
Now divide that amongst its current 5.5m members
Which works out to something around $63.00 per member... or a couple boxes of ammo.

(its actually even worse in that a significant portion of their revenue comes from things like investments and large mega-donors)

For even more perspective, let's divide that among the estimate of 100m gun owners in the U.S.
That works out to $3.50 per gun owner
WoW... that's some serious commitment to the cause


Actually you were the one who took umbrage with my opinion.


You keep throwing out thinly veiled ad hominem... yet you have failed to factually refute a single thing.
I am all ears/eyes and open to correction if I've gotten anything blatantly wrong, Im not perfect and never claimed to be.


This coming from someone who doesn't like my opinion, and has yet to tare it down.
As I said before, I hope I'm wrong, that we are our own worst enemy in this fight.
But I have yet to see anyone provide any evidence to the contrary.
You are the one assigning the label of Lazy and Apathetic to most of the gun owners in the USA and so far you have done a miserable job at proving that and an excellent job at stating your ignorant assumptions.

You use statistics to prove your point. The number of people in the NRA, the number of people in the GOA and then you come up with your ridiculous assumption that all other gun owners except those in the NRA, GOA oh.... and I forgot, you count the people on AR.15.com (for crying out loud) are lazy and apathetic. But the real truth is, all those statistics that you find on line about the number of people in the NRA, is just a number of people in the NRA... same as the GOA and your AR15.com forum. You are the one in all your wisdom that is calling people lazy and apathetic and you have nothing to substantiate that except your pessimistic and ignorant assumptions. Do you have categories of Lazy and Apathetic? Since you are magically able to determine the laziness and apathy in all other gun owners, with your calculations, maybe you can break it down by population in city and state. Have you run out of facts? If not, please inform us exactly where all the lazy ones reside. Help me get a better understanding that you actually know what you are talking about.


And I proved your point? By stating what happens after each mass shooting or terror attack, describing how people respond is your reason to think I just proved your point. Actually, the only thing it proves is that reality hit close to home and people that are normally preoccupied with their daily routines, realized they need to do something. But to you , "do something" means to get off their lazy and apathetic butts? It's really just silly and weak to think that proves your point. It might just prove how much you think of yourself compared to people who actually hit the stores after an incident. How dare they not already be prepared as someone like yourself is? I'll apologize to you for all those people, how many there actually are and wherever they actually live, that have fallen so far short of your standards.

I write to my senators and the white house all the time. I vote. I teach. I inspire others with how I have lived my life. Are these the characteristics of those in your numbers of the NRA, GOA and AR15.com that are not lazy and apathetic? Do people like me get a rating of Non Lazy and Non Apathetic from you? Well, I'm not a member of the NRA... I guess I don't count. I'm not a member of the GOA. I just get worse and worse... not even a member of AR15.com.

And this fits in perfectly with another of one of your ridiculous calculations about your SUMMARY of the rally in VA yesterday in another post. I am a member of the VCDL. I don't live in VA, but I'm not that far from Richmond. Did I go to the rally? NO... personal reasons are keeping me from attending and I probably would not have anyway because I'm not a fan of crowds. But would I have to be part of a big crowd to not be called lazy and apathetic?

Normally I don't waste so much time responding to people, but there is something about you that makes you think you are 100% correct about something you can't possibly speak intelligently about. And you repeatedly fall back on your junk science to prove it again. But then again, you just might be the expert that does know the numbers of all the lazy and apathetic gun owners in the USA... do you know the numbers? You seem to know every other number.
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Old January 21, 2020, 02:14 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USNRet93 View Post
I'm guessing you are assuming everybody who trucked down to the LGS or went online were of a common mind? Same political persuasion? Or maybe 'some' who were in the middle of the 'bell curve'?

My oldest son, who is very left side of the 'curve', just bought a really sweet Ruger 556, I shot it yesterday..really nice..also cuz he is expecting a AR ban in the next year or so..hopefully grand fathered..
I guess I do think they were of your stated "common mind". There are events that hit close to home and make people realize they are vulnerable. When people see what happens on TV with religiously radicalized attackers or other attackers, that tends to pop their heads out of their usual routines. I do think ALL of them wanted to protect themselves and get to the store/online and get what they need. If you guessed that I assumed that, you would be correct.

I was pretty specific about a mass shooting or an attack that floods the stores. I didn't mention anything about anyone anticipating a ban... I'm not assuming they are buying strictly ARs either.

Did I mention political persuasion? Anymore Guessing what I'm assuming?
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Old January 21, 2020, 06:04 PM   #107
TBM900
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Quote:
Originally Posted by American Man View Post
You are the one assigning the label of Lazy and Apathetic to most of the gun owners in the USA
Actually I stated "the vast majority".

Quote:
so far you have done a miserable job at proving that and an excellent job at stating your ignorant assumptions.
And yet it is you who has failed to factually refute anything Ive stated.

Quote:
You use statistics to prove your point.
And you've used none to refute my opinion, just lots of emotion.

Quote:
The number of people in the NRA, the number of people in the GOA and then you come up with your ridiculous assumption that all other gun owners except those in the NRA, GOA oh.... and I forgot, you count the people on AR.15.com (for crying out loud) are lazy and apathetic.
Actually, I asserted no such thing.
But again, I'm still waiting for you to factually refute a single point I've made.
I find it interesting that you are typing an awful lot... telling me how wrong I am... but have presented nothing to refute.

Quote:
But the real truth is, all those statistics that you find on line about the number of people in the NRA, is just a number of people in the NRA... same as the GOA and your AR15.com forum.
Cite where I stated it was anything else....

Quote:
You are the one in all your wisdom that is calling people lazy and apathetic and you have nothing to substantiate that except your pessimistic and ignorant assumptions.
I made no assumptions, I presented some actual data, which I used to help support my opinion.
You have presented nothing to factually refute my opinion.

Quote:
Since you are magically able to determine the laziness and apathy in all other gun owners, with your calculations
I asserted no such thing.

Quote:
maybe you can break it down by population in city and state. Have you run out of facts? If not, please inform us exactly where all the lazy ones reside. Help me get a better understanding that you actually know what you are talking about.
Or you could just factually refute what Ive rather clearly stated, which is an opinion.

Quote:
And I proved your point?
Yup

Quote:
By stating what happens after each mass shooting or terror attack, describing how people respond is your reason to think I just proved your point.
Again... yup

Quote:
Actually, the only thing it proves is that reality hit close to home and people that are normally preoccupied with their daily routines, realized they need to do something.
Buying more guns isn't going to save our rights.
Thinking it will proves my point about being "out of touch".

Quote:
But to you , "do something" means to get off their lazy and apathetic butts?
Yup

Quote:
It's really just silly and weak to think that proves your point. It might just prove how much you think of yourself compared to people who actually hit the stores after an incident.
Again, buying more guns will not save our rights.

Quote:
How dare they not already be prepared as someone like yourself is?
You are once again projecting.

Quote:
I'll apologize to you for all those people, how many there actually are and wherever they actually live, that have fallen so far short of your standards.
Umm... okay

Quote:
I write to my senators and the white house all the time.
Do you think they actually read them?

Quote:
I vote
In VA, less than half of gun owners typically vote in their state/local elections (using extrapolation).
Which is largely why they are in the mess they are in, with many more states soon to follow (including my own)
Which brings us right back to my original statement of "The vast majority are lazy, apathetic, and out of touch"
If they weren't, they likely wouldn't be in the mess they are in.
This really is a simple concept.

Quote:
I teach. I inspire others with how I have lived my life. Are these the characteristics of those in your numbers of the NRA, GOA and AR15.com that are not lazy and apathetic?
Since I mentioned none of those aspects... you tell me

Quote:
Do people like me get a rating of Non Lazy and Non Apathetic from you? Well, I'm not a member of the NRA... I guess I don't count. I'm not a member of the GOA. I just get worse and worse... not even a member of AR15.com.
I never said a word about you or anyone else here personally.
But clearly I touched a nerve, I wonder why...

Quote:
And this fits in perfectly with another of one of your ridiculous calculations about your SUMMARY of the rally in VA yesterday in another post. I am a member of the VCDL. I don't live in VA, but I'm not that far from Richmond. Did I go to the rally? NO... personal reasons are keeping me from attending and I probably would not have anyway because I'm not a fan of crowds. But would I have to be part of a big crowd to not be called lazy and apathetic?
And yet...

Virginia Senate advances 'red flag' law day after massive gun rights rally

WE ARE LOSING THE FIGHT
And if we do not first admit why... and then fight to fix ourselves... we are done

Quote:
Normally I don't waste so much time responding to people, but there is something about you that makes you think you are 100% correct
You are projecting again as I stated nor implied any such thing.
I stated an opinion...
Gave just a few examples of what I base my opinion on...
Which has obviously upset you personally, even though Ive directed nothing at you specifically.
While you on the other hand...

Quote:
about something you can't possibly speak intelligently about.
...keep putting forth thinly veiled personal attacks.
Of which there is no need for.

I have asked you repeatedly to factually refute my opinion.
I have openly stated that I very well may be wrong.
I even stated that I hope I am wrong.

Quote:
And you repeatedly fall back on your junk science to prove it again.
And again, I keep asking you to factually refute any of the "science" (as you call it) I've presented.

Quote:
But then again, you just might be the expert that does know the numbers of all the lazy and apathetic gun owners in the USA... do you know the numbers? You seem to know every other number.
I am starting to suspect my OPINION has struck close to home for you.
Your anger and emotion is actually a good thing to some extent.
All gun owners and Patriots (including myself) should be pissed off over what we have let happen to our republic.
And then use that anger to build up and inspire ourselves to MORE action.

Let me ask you a simple, honest and sincere question...
You can ignore every other thing I've asked of you, but just answer this one...
In fact... DO NOT EVEN ANSWER IT OPENLY HERE, rather go look yourself in the mirror and answer...

Have you truly done all you can do to help save our 2A rights, our Liberty, our Republic?
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Last edited by TBM900; January 21, 2020 at 06:12 PM.
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Old January 21, 2020, 08:11 PM   #108
American Man
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Posts: 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBM900 View Post
Actually I stated "the vast majority".


And yet it is you who has failed to factually refute anything Ive stated.


And you've used none to refute my opinion, just lots of emotion.


Actually, I asserted no such thing.
But again, I'm still waiting for you to factually refute a single point I've made.
I find it interesting that you are typing an awful lot... telling me how wrong I am... but have presented nothing to refute.


Cite where I stated it was anything else....


I made no assumptions, I presented some actual data, which I used to help support my opinion.
You have presented nothing to factually refute my opinion.


I asserted no such thing.


Or you could just factually refute what Ive rather clearly stated, which is an opinion.


Yup


Again... yup


Buying more guns isn't going to save our rights.
Thinking it will proves my point about being "out of touch".


Yup


Again, buying more guns will not save our rights.


You are once again projecting.


Umm... okay


Do you think they actually read them?


In VA, less than half of gun owners typically vote in their state/local elections (using extrapolation).
Which is largely why they are in the mess they are in, with many more states soon to follow (including my own)
Which brings us right back to my original statement of "The vast majority are lazy, apathetic, and out of touch"
If they weren't, they likely wouldn't be in the mess they are in.
This really is a simple concept.


Since I mentioned none of those aspects... you tell me


I never said a word about you or anyone else here personally.
But clearly I touched a nerve, I wonder why...


And yet...

Virginia Senate advances 'red flag' law day after massive gun rights rally

WE ARE LOSING THE FIGHT
And if we do not first admit why... and then fight to fix ourselves... we are done


You are projecting again as I stated nor implied any such thing.
I stated an opinion...
Gave just a few examples of what I base my opinion on...
Which has obviously upset you personally, even though Ive directed nothing at you specifically.
While you on the other hand...


...keep putting forth thinly veiled personal attacks.
Of which there is no need for.

I have asked you repeatedly to factually refute my opinion.
I have openly stated that I very well may be wrong.
I even stated that I hope I am wrong.


And again, I keep asking you to factually refute any of the "science" (as you call it) I've presented.


I am starting to suspect my OPINION has struck close to home for you.
Your anger and emotion is actually a good thing to some extent.
All gun owners and Patriots (including myself) should be pissed off over what we have let happen to our republic.
And then use that anger to build up and inspire ourselves to MORE action.

Let me ask you a simple, honest and sincere question...
You can ignore every other thing I've asked of you, but just answer this one...
In fact... DO NOT EVEN ANSWER IT OPENLY HERE, rather go look yourself in the mirror and answer...

Have you truly done all you can do to help save our 2A rights, our Liberty, our Republic?
Again... nothing but nonsense. You claim the vast majority of gun owners are lazy and apathetic and you just use junk science by adding up numbers that you somehow think sums up their behavior and motives. You make the claim... I put the burden on you to prove it.

Sorry if I need a little more evidence than your low opinion of the Vast Majority of gun owners to form my conclusion of the Vast Majority of my fellow American gun owners. You're the one saying we need to stick together... well, hopefully you are not applying to be part of some NRA ads to increase membership. "Hey you lazy apathetic bunch, yeah, that would be you, the vast majority of you gun owners, how about you get your disgusting selves off the couch and be more like me?"... that'll go great!!

You say to me, "Have you truly done all you can do to help save our 2A rights, our Liberty, our Republic?"... again, you don't even know who I am or what I have done for my country.... to you I'm just another joe snuffy that is part of the vast majority of lazy and apathetic gun owners. I don't represent a number in any of the groups you use to make your calculations and assumptions.

When I look in the mirror, I don't feel any guilt or lack of accomplishment or lack of service to my country. Maybe I could have stayed in past 20 years. I've flown back and forth across this earth many times to, as you put it in another post, to put metal to meat. I'd appreciate a good night's sleep one of these years, but that's ok, I'm just glad its not my name on a wall that people are visiting. And I may not have the greatest people skills, but I don't insult the vast majority of gun owners and brand them as lazy and apathetic. You are insulting people's family members and friends.You repeatedly stand by your original statement. Is anyone even exempt from your lazy and apathetic insult? A parent in their 70s? Any waivers for gun owners that aren't living up to your standard? I can hear the numbers crunching now.
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Old January 21, 2020, 09:21 PM   #109
TBM900
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Quote:
Originally Posted by American Man View Post
Again... nothing but nonsense
Yet you fail to factually refute one lick of it.


Quote:
You say to me, "Have you truly done all you can do to help save our 2A rights, our Liberty, our Republic?"... again, you don't even know who I am or what I have done for my country....
I never said I did...which is why I asked
Funny how that works

Quote:
to you I'm just another...
I never said a word about you... unless of course the shoe fit.

Quote:
I don't represent a number in any of the groups you use to make your calculations and assumptions
I never said you did.

Quote:
When I look in the mirror, I don't feel...
Yet you are awfully triggered by my opinion.

Quote:
but I don't insult the vast majority of gun owners and brand them as lazy and apathetic
Neither do I... rather our continued loss of 2A rights speaks to our collective inaction... which is insulting to us all.

Quote:
You are insulting people's family members and friends.
Our continued loss of rights and Liberty is far more insulting.
Especially to those who fought and died to give us what we are now letting slip away

Quote:
You repeatedly stand by your original statement.
Yet you repeatedly FAIL to factually refute any of it.



You've made it clear that my opinion hurt your feelings, and that you have absolutely no intent (or ability) to ever factually refuting a single point, so there is no rational reason in continuing to spin my wheels with you.

If you ever work up the courage to have an actual on point debate, or to even attempt to factually refute anything I've stated... I will be more than happy to continue.
We can even do so via PM or Email if you like.
Heck I'll even sit down over some BBQ with you on our patio if you ever get out this way.

Otherwise I'm just wasting my time as you just keep saying my words are icky... yet refuse to dive any deeper.

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Old January 21, 2020, 09:28 PM   #110
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We can even do so via PM or Email if you like.
And, you're going to have to. After a full page of bickering and not even a single mention of the OP topic, this one is "off the rails" and done.

CLOSED.
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