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Old December 29, 2019, 10:13 AM   #51
Aguila Blanca
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Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts
My complaint is with ranges that do a “one size fits all” set of rules geared to the lowest common denominator. In a large urban area like Dallas, that is basically assuming every customer is a halfwit who will attempt to kill you and whether it was intentional will be the only unknown.

Instead ranges should be taking their John Wick fans by the hand and improving their skills in a way that their customers are experiencing something novel and fun; but not trying to drive a Ford GT at 200mph on the track their first day.
There's a difference between a public (or private club) range where people are shooting whatever they brought, using whatever ammo they bought or brought, vs an instructional setting where students are being instructed on certain techniques and are being led through them under close supervision by the instructional cadre. I thought this discussion was about the former. "... taking their John Wick fans by the hand and improving their skills in a way that their customers are experiencing something novel and fun" is the latter, and IMHO that's a completely different situation.

At a public or private range during times when the range is open for general shooting, there may be anywhere from a dozen to two dozen (or more) shooting stations/lanes, and maybe two or three range safety officers trying to keep an eye on everyone. The RSOs are there as safety officers, not as instructors. They can't take one shooter by the hand -- if they do that, they can't do their job, which is watching everyone to ensure that the range's rules are followed.
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Old December 29, 2019, 11:24 AM   #52
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However, your average public range shooter doesn’t have the skill base to be working from the holster (and sometimes those who do let their skill base lapse), so before I would let some random joe walk-in off the street and start working on his fast draw, I would probably require a short class and I would probably have them on a separate range than the general public if feasible.
Interesting. I find all kinds of public/private range shooters not competent enough not to point their guns at me. But ymmv.

To me, this is the biggest thing that the nra has done and continues to do....establishment the rules, foundation, education system and materials to run a safe range with people slightly more competent than idiots at each most levels. Without the NRA, I would be laughed at asking people not to handle guns while people are downrange or to not point there “unloaded” guns at me.
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Old December 29, 2019, 04:06 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca View Post
There's a difference between a public (or private club) range where people are shooting whatever they brought, using whatever ammo they bought or brought, vs an instructional setting where students are being instructed on certain techniques and are being led through them under close supervision by the instructional cadre. I thought this discussion was about the former. "... taking their John Wick fans by the hand and improving their skills in a way that their customers are experiencing something novel and fun" is the latter, and IMHO that's a completely different situation.

At a public or private range during times when the range is open for general shooting, there may be anywhere from a dozen to two dozen (or more) shooting stations/lanes, and maybe two or three range safety officers trying to keep an eye on everyone. The RSOs are there as safety officers, not as instructors. They can't take one shooter by the hand -- if they do that, they can't do their job, which is watching everyone to ensure that the range's rules are followed.
People are a lot smarter than most people give them credit for. I am a member of a gun club that has every range you can imagine. No range officers present except on days registered competition shoots are going on. 99.9% of the time no range officer is present. 1400 members, open to non members. In the 40+ years in operation, there has only been one noteable injury. It was someone getting run over by a car in the parking lot. The rule that works is common sense. Those lacking it, get run off.
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Old December 29, 2019, 04:41 PM   #54
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We have a large private club with strict rules. This past Thursday a citizen came and asked if we could go cold. I explained how the my gun had malfunction and was technically loaded. He snorted and walked onto the range. When he came back there were words. He said that I could have taken the loaded rifle to my car etc. That was not a diplomatic comment. Some people are hopeless no matter where.

Added: The NRA TV, like it or not, was becoming more radical. This is one of the reasons people left in flocks. It would be a good thing to come up with some solid information on motivations for leaving. This would exclude name calling etc. I'd say that the looting was a cause but not the cause of the exodus. Where does the buck stop at the NRA
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Old December 29, 2019, 05:06 PM   #55
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....my gun had malfunction and was technically loaded. He snorted and
walked onto the range. When he came back there were words. He said
that I could have taken the loaded rifle to my car....
`Scuse me ?
Where was (or is there) an RSO?

Do I assume correctly that he deliberately walked out onto the range ahead of an unclear firing line?
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Old December 29, 2019, 05:10 PM   #56
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RSO: That is a serious short fall at that range. The Fat Lady has not sang on
this one yet.
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Old December 29, 2019, 05:15 PM   #57
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What gives the NRA its political clout is that its membership votes and votes almost unerringly the way the NRA asks it to. Yes, money matters in politics, but the ability to get out the vote matters most. NRA members treat 2nd Amendment rights as single-issue voters, but the average anti-gun voter does not treat gun control as a single-issue voter, so their results are less focussed. For them, it is usually just one of several items on their social change agenda. So while everyone speaks with legitimate frustration about the NRA's organizational problems, keep in mind that unified voting is still the most important thing it does for gun rights and that none of the other organizations mentioned can hold a candle to the size of its membership or its ability to cause consternation among elected officials. Dropping out of the NRA to punish its management may bring some measure of "I told you so" satisfaction, but diminishing its membership numbers may be all it takes to convince politicians not to worry so much about how its membership votes. That may defeat all we've worked for over the last 30 years, in particular.

I was at the '93 NRA Annual Meeting when LaPierre convinced the membership he should be immune from being voted out of office. I think that was a bad decision for morale. The membership's ability to change things by vote has been sorely and repeatedly diminished by the board and I think that has alienated a lot of people to whom it was obvious that the organization had become the object of empire-building.

On the other hand, that empire-building grew the membership in leaps and bounds, and that's where the political clout comes from. So much as I dislike the tactics used to get us where we are, I don't want to see even one fewer votes cast against gun controllers because of internal disunity.

Also, in addition to living too well, the folks at the top have also paid a price. LaPierre has been "swatted" by anti-gunners calling in a fake emergency at his home, claiming he'd killed his wife and was armed and dangerous. Chris Cox got out not just because of internal NRA politics but in part because anti-gun fanatics have thrown fake blood all over his house—twice. The anti-gunners are nothing if not willing to resort to physical intimidation in their exercise of intolerance of opinions that differ from their own. Control by censorship of dissenting opinion is a primary "progressive" tactic.

This background and interview with LaPierre in the New York Times Magazine, is not flattering, as you might expect, given the source, but supplies some "other sides" to what has been going on that are worth looking at.
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Old December 29, 2019, 06:12 PM   #58
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Trust issue

Where does the buck stop at the NRA? What you got is a basic trust issue. What has Wayne and crew done since this scandal broke. I'm a gone from that mess. Bring me up to date. What improvements have been made. Is the organization more transparent. Has there been an audit. Does anybody have any idea how much money is/was misspent or diverted? How is this trust issue to be resolved?
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Old December 29, 2019, 06:42 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by reynolds357
People are a lot smarter than most people give them credit for. I am a member of a gun club that has every range you can imagine. No range officers present except on days registered competition shoots are going on. 99.9% of the time no range officer is present. 1400 members, open to non members. In the 40+ years in operation, there has only been one noteable injury. It was someone getting run over by a car in the parking lot. The rule that works is common sense. Those lacking it, get run off.
My comment was in response to the comment about "... taking their John Wick fans by the hand and improving their skills in a way that their customers are experiencing something novel and fun." How does your club regard people practicing their John Wick gun handling skills at the club range?
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Old December 29, 2019, 06:52 PM   #60
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Well, Aguila, I don’t think you understood the intent of my remark. But instead of repeatedly clarifying it and derailing this thread, I thought I’d let it drop.

My general intent wasn’t that RSOs babysit; but that ranges offer classes to help build their users skill base (which many ranges do); but that once those shooters demonstrate those skills, you stop treating them by the lowest common denominator rules.

Bringing this full circle, the suburban interest in self-defense is going to be a major driver for future shooters. Accessible range use is going to play a part in that; but just having the range is only part of it. There has to be a path for those who want to grow to grow, preferably without driving two hours and joining a private range.
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Old December 29, 2019, 09:44 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca View Post
My comment was in response to the comment about "... taking their John Wick fans by the hand and improving their skills in a way that their customers are experiencing something novel and fun." How does your club regard people practicing their John Wick gun handling skills at the club range?
We have guys who practice fast draw. They go to an unoccupied 3 gun bay and practice away.
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Old December 30, 2019, 10:53 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts View Post
Well, Aguila, I don’t think you understood the intent of my remark. But instead of repeatedly clarifying it and derailing this thread, I thought I’d let it drop.

My general intent wasn’t that RSOs babysit; but that ranges offer classes to help build their users skill base (which many ranges do); but that once those shooters demonstrate those skills, you stop treating them by the lowest common denominator rules.

Bringing this full circle, the suburban interest in self-defense is going to be a major driver for future shooters. Accessible range use is going to play a part in that; but just having the range is only part of it. There has to be a path for those who want to grow to grow, preferably without driving two hours and joining a private range.
RSO in many instances do a tremendous amount of unnecessary baby sitting. I never have run a civilian range (and have no desire to). As a retired master swat operator and trainer, I do have a slight clue about gun safety. Over the years on civilian ranges, I must admit that most of what I have seen range officers correct people for is simply nitpicking stuff that has no meaningful impact on safety. Its always been my primary desire to teach people what to do instead of scold them about what not to do. I guess I might be too desensitized after being trained in IDF building clearing tactics. In training, our sniper, from 100 meters, would shoot a water balloon 38 inches over the point man's head. Getting wet was the signal to breach. While I never personally let that drill run on my range, I had that balloon shot several hundred times over my head. You evolve to a point of realizing safety is not about absolute and concrete rules, its about the person behind the trigger.
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Old December 30, 2019, 11:02 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Reynolds 357
We have guys who practice fast draw. They go to an unoccupied 3 gun bay and practice away.
That's great if you are at a range with separate bays or pits. The only such range I have seen is the one where the SHOT Show conducts Industry Day at the Range, outside of Las Vegas. I have shot at or visited probably a dozen commercial indoor ranges and a similar number of commercial or club outdoor ranges in my home state and in Pennsylvania, and I have not encountered a range with separate pits anywhere other than at the SHOT Show.
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Old December 30, 2019, 12:29 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca View Post
That's great if you are at a range with separate bays or pits. The only such range I have seen is the one where the SHOT Show conducts Industry Day at the Range, outside of Las Vegas. I have shot at or visited probably a dozen commercial indoor ranges and a similar number of commercial or club outdoor ranges in my home state and in Pennsylvania, and I have not encountered a range with separate pits anywhere other than at the SHOT Show.
When we only had the one range, they (we)shot on it. Now that we have 3 new pits, life is easier. Before "practical" pistol became so popular, competition involved quite a bit of fast draw. I guess I shot 50,000+ rounds perfecting putting the first two shots on paper during the process of the draw.
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Old January 2, 2020, 10:30 AM   #65
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MADDOW : NRA in freefall.

MADDOW : "Even if Trump wins EVERY toss up state... He still LOSES!"
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Old January 2, 2020, 10:37 AM   #66
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......I'm out. I was an NRA member for years and now haven't been one for more years than I was......
This is a far bigger problem than what the NRA is currently facing with LaPierre, Nugent, or Virginia.
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Old January 3, 2020, 12:46 PM   #67
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Some folks live on meager incomes that used to go further than what they can afford today. After looking at some of the salaries that some of those leaders are making.....while I drive a 27 year-old Ranger with 400,000 miles on it that's had to be towed at least three times within recent memory..... Yeah, I'm looking for something more reliable that I can afford. So, I need to help pay Wayne's salary? I think they put something in the Kool-Aid. Or maybe it's just a rich folks club, way above my pay-grade. A lot of people that don't make anywhere near six figures a year are feeling disenfranchised enough already.
What happens when you lose the hard working common folks? Maybe we don't matter.
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Old January 3, 2020, 01:21 PM   #68
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Some folks live on meager incomes that used to go further than what they can afford today. After looking at some of the salaries that some of those leaders are making.....while I drive a 27 year-old Ranger with 400,000 miles on it that's had to be towed at least three times within recent memory..... Yeah, I'm looking for something more reliable that I can afford. So, I need to help pay Wayne's salary? I think they put something in the Kool-Aid. Or maybe it's just a rich folks club, way above my pay-grade. A lot of people that don't make anywhere near six figures a year are feeling disenfranchised enough already.
What happens when you lose the hard working common folks? Maybe we don't matter.
I get where you're coming from. And I agree with you. There is no question Wayne LaPierre is way over compensated for what he does. Especially when you consider the NRA is supposed to be "Not For Profit".

He has himself dug in good. And it's been that way for years. But not joining, or worse not staying a member because of that is like cutting off your nose to spite your face. The NRA is far from perfect. But with that said, they have more political clout and muscle than all the pro gun organizations out there put together.

Without the NRA we would be in far WORSE shape than we are now..... Wayne LaPierre and all. We can voice our displeasure with him financially, and hope they do something about it. But quitting is NOT the answer. In fact, it's the worst possible scenario. Just try to imagine if everyone did that.

The mess with LaPierre will get sorted out in due time. In the mean time keep supporting the NRA. Because without them, we're pretty much done for. Just ask yourself WHY all the liberal politicians hate them so much? It's sure not because the NRA makes it easier for them to pursue their anti gun agenda.
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Old January 3, 2020, 04:45 PM   #69
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Yep, money grabbing Wayne La Pierre cares so much about the future of the NRA that he refuses to step down and allow new blood to re-organize the NRA.

For decades i contributed until it hurt while Lapierre and his minions squandered NRA funds. No more, my current donations are to deserving charity organizations.

When/if WLP goes away and the NRA is reorganized giving members input into running the organization, my donations may resume.
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Old January 3, 2020, 08:37 PM   #70
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I get where you're coming from. And I agree with you. There is no question Wayne LaPierre is way over compensated for what he does. Especially when you consider the NRA is supposed to be "Not For Profit".

He has himself dug in good. And it's been that way for years. But not joining, or worse not staying a member because of that is like cutting off your nose to spite your face. The NRA is far from perfect. But with that said, they have more political clout and muscle than all the pro gun organizations out there put together.

Without the NRA we would be in far WORSE shape than we are now..... Wayne LaPierre and all. We can voice our displeasure with him financially, and hope they do something about it. But quitting is NOT the answer. In fact, it's the worst possible scenario. Just try to imagine if everyone did that.

The mess with LaPierre will get sorted out in due time. In the mean time keep supporting the NRA. Because without them, we're pretty much done for. Just ask yourself WHY all the liberal politicians hate them so much? It's sure not because the NRA makes it easier for them to pursue their anti gun agenda.
If say 25 % of membership would contact NRA and tell them no donations and no renewal until Wayne is fired, he would be gone quickly.
I called and told them that.
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Old January 3, 2020, 08:59 PM   #71
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WLP and his cronies have changed the by-laws on the NRA so that no house cleaning can happen by voting. they are more concerned with their own status than that of the organization. WLP has gotten his 10 times over and you think he would step aside and down for the sake of the organization, but his ego isn't going to let that happen. the slogan use to be "I am the NRA", but now its all about WLP.
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Old January 3, 2020, 11:32 PM   #72
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WLP and his cronies have changed the by-laws on the NRA so that no house cleaning can happen by voting.
The sad thing is that we were warned about this by Jeff Knox at the time they revised the by-laws, but most members went ahead and rubber-stamped the changes.
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Old January 4, 2020, 12:24 PM   #73
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The sad thing is that we were warned about this by Jeff Knox at the time they revised the by-laws, but most members went ahead and rubber-stamped the changes.
What is the mechanism to fire WLP? How would it have to happen?
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Old January 4, 2020, 01:39 PM   #74
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What is the mechanism to fire WLP?
A no confidence vote by the board of directors would do it.

Quote:
How would it have to happen?
Won't happen, the BOD are as corrupt as Wayne La Pierre.
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Old January 4, 2020, 03:21 PM   #75
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It could happen like it did in the 70's when Harlon Carter and his group organized a takeover of the NRA. The NRA at the time was being infiltrated by anti gunners. They were all thrown out, and Harlon Carter took the NRA back to it's conservative grass roots. We need that again.
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