Do Dinosaurs still roam the earth?

[44 AMP]

I enjoy my Contenders, I have a couple of frames and about a dozen barrels in calibers ranging from .22LR to .45-70. I like them a lot.

What I don't do is post pictures of them in threads about SEMI AUTO magnum pistols....

[Pumpkin]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

I'll take this one..Magnum Wheel chime in if I get something wrong about yours..

The original Auto Mag Pistol (note: two words, not one), is recoil operated. In uses a multiple lug bolt (usually compared to the M16 bolt - because people know what that looks like).

The bolt is cammed by a pin near the rear of the action, and assisted by a torsion spring inside the cocking piece.

Bolt and barrel assembly, locked together, recoil straight back about a half inch (0.47" on the gun I just checked. At this point, the barrel stops, the bolt is unlocked, and is struck by the accelerator, giving it an additional rearward thrust. It considered to be a short recoil action.

Auto Mag II (.22WMR) is a retarded blowback action. (if that's not PC its a delayed blowback action..)

Auto Mags III, IV, and V are variations of the Browning Tilt barrel lockup system.

The LAR Grizzly and the Coonan are the same, tilt barrel lockup.

The Desert Eagle is gas operated. Fixed barrel. Multiple lug rotating bolt. Gas port is right ahead of the chamber. Gas runs in a channel in the barrel assy, underneath the bore, almost to the muzzle, where it turns 180 and pushes the piston to operate the slide.

The Wildey is gas operated, using a different approach. Gas is ported from the barrel a bit ahead of the chamber, and then directed to the underbarrel piston through the (hand adjustable) nut.

The 22 Auto Mag has a hollow chamber around the chamber, like a sleeve. At the end of the chamber just past the case mouth, there are some radially machined ports that allow gas to impart pressure on the back of the case delaying case movement through similarly machined ports. If you look at a fired case, you will see ( I think 6-8) gas spots around the case about an 1/8" from the end.
This gives the delayed blowback, mine has always been very reliable.

[44 AMP]

Back when they were still fairly new items, a couple of my friends got the .22WMR Auto Mag IIs.

Both were quite reliable, but only with the ammo they liked. One ran great on Winchester ammo and choked on everything else, and the other did the same but ran on CCI ammo and choked on Winchester, and anything else.

If you like the .22WMR they're cool, But if not, I'd say don't waste your money. Personally I've never been a fan of the .22WMR, always thought it was too expensive for what you got, but that's just my personal opinion.

[Forte S+W]

@44 AMP
What are your thoughts on the FK BRNO Field Pistol?

Over the past few years it has received a lot of attention for its unique design as well as the terminal ballistics of the proprietary 7.5FK cartridge (basically 7.62x25 Tokarev on steroids) it comes chambered in.

Seeing as you're a Magnum Pistol Aficionado, I was curious what your take on it is.

[44 AMP]

@44 AMP
What are your thoughts on the FK BRNO Field Pistol?

I had to go look that one up. In doing so, I did recall hearing a little bit about ti when it first came out half a dozen years ago...

The specs are impressive, and the price tag is flat out shocking!

At seven thousand five hundred dollars ($7,500) MSRP, I won't be doing any hands on testing or be owning one, short of winning the lottery jackpot.

$75 for a box of ammo (coming soon..) doesn't endear it to me, either.

Ok, based only on the online data I found (mostly on Wiki, and therefore possibly not 100% accurate) it shapes up to be an interesting, powerful round in a decent package for an outrageously (and barking stupid IMHO) high price.

The gun is a beefed up CZ-75 design, an inch or so longer than the Colt Govt model and about half a pound heavier. Nothing wrong with that. The CZ75 design has proven itself robust, durable and functional for quite a while now.

15shot magazine. A plus for those considering it for duty/self defense use. A drawback in states with magazine capacity limits of less than 15 (of which there are several, today). Certainly they could make a 10rnd mag for it, if the demand were there...

The cartridge numbers are impressive. HOWEVER, paper numbers are not real world results. And, I noted in the comparison tables, that the velocities given for the rounds they compare it to, (9mm, 40, 10mm .357, .44mag etc) are not the highest velocities possible with those rounds. That is a common practice, to show the new round in the best possible light.

So, what is it, actually? Again, according to the Wiki data, its a .30 caliber, firing 95-103gr bullets at 1900-2000fps. Case length is 33mm which roughly matches magnum revolver rounds, and head size is the 10mm/,40 S&W size, which roughly splits the difference between the 9mm Luger and .45ACP sizes.

Listed pressure is slightly over 50,000 psi.
So, its a "smallbore" (.30) compared to most pistol rounds, its uber high pressure, and its very, very fast, shooting rather light weight bullets.

Remember that our formula for calculating energy is heavily weighted to velocity, so a light very fast bullet gives equal (or even higher) energy numbers than a heavier slower one. So while the numbers are large they don't tell us the actual performance in game, or humans. They show us potential, yes, but a LOT depends on what the actual bullets really do after they hit.

The .30 Luger, Mauser and Russian rounds are also fast (though not nearly as much as the 7.5 FK) but are not well thought of a good stoppers or game rounds due to the usual FMJ bullets they use.

Now, this new round, having the benefit of nearly a century of observed past performance to draw from, and the benefits of modern engineering and metalurgy OUGHT to be significantly better than the old cartridges it is compared with. On paper, it certainly is. In the game fields and on the street? there is no data yet available on which to base conclusions.

what boggles my little mind the most, is the price. Clearly this is not, and never was intended to be a mass market item.

which is also ok, if that's what the maker wants. But this isn't even close to something regular folks would, or could buy. the folks who buy quarter million dollar high performance sports cars, might buy a $7,500 pistol (if they were into pistols) but the rest of us are simply not likely to.

IF the price were half that, they'd probably sell a bunch. If it were a quarter of that, they'd sell boatloads..If it were 1/10 that ($750) they'd sell every one they could make faster than they could make them, provided there was ammo available....

I think they never intended to make or sell very many, its a technical exercise and the high price is so that they get some of what they spent on R&D back from the few guns they will sell.

So, my take is that its a "small" rifle round (,30 cal & 50K psi) in a beefed up service class pistol design at a price point that guarantees it will not be a mass market success. Terminal ballistics will depend on the quality and performance of the bullets used, which should be good, but we don't have enough real world results to know, yet.

I'd bet that recoil will be "snappy" though not terribly "heavy" the way pistols shooting much heavier bullets at high speeds are.

I expect accuracy to be adequate for the intended uses, though none of the tilt barrel lock up systems are as accurate as fixed barrel systems can be, if you're not shooting benchrest, it should be plenty good enough.

here's the kicker, keep an eye on it and see if the round gets licensed for other people to use. If it does, there is a CHANCE for commercial success, if not, its going to stay a niche item (in a very small niche) and will probably go out of production before too long.

You asked, and that's my take on it, so far.

[Forte S+W]

There's actually a much cheaper polymer-framed model of the FK BRNO called the PSD with a substantially lower price point of $1650 MSRP.

[44caliberkid]

I think Ruger should make the Five Seven in 7.62 Tokarev, Hornady could craft a suitable bullet for it, an 85 or 90 grain pill @ 1700 - 2000 FPS. Call it the Six Two. It would revive a great cartridge without having to reinvent the wheel.

[ballardw]

Originally Posted by 44caliberkid

I think Ruger should make the Five Seven in 7.62 Tokarev, Hornady could craft a suitable bullet for it, an 85 or 90 grain pill @ 1700 - 2000 FPS. Call it the Six Two. It would revive a great cartridge without having to reinvent the wheel.

I think a nice 65 to 70gr like the Gold Dot would be appropriate and might get the round to fit in magazines/frames like 1911 a bit better for feeding.

Don't forget the .223 Timbs ( https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...brief-history/ ) , 7.62x25 using .223 bullets in .30 sabots.

Which might also be interesting in the FK BRNO round as well.

[Forte S+W]

Originally Posted by 44caliberkid

I think Ruger should make the Five Seven in 7.62 Tokarev, Hornady could craft a suitable bullet for it, an 85 or 90 grain pill @ 1700 - 2000 FPS. Call it the Six Two. It would revive a great cartridge without having to reinvent the wheel.

I've been saying this practically since the day that the Ruger-57 was announced, even e-mailed Ruger's CEO about it as a suggestion.
Unfortunately, the enduring sentiment is; "Nobody would pay $700 for a brand new Pistol chambered in 7.62x25 Tokarev when they could buy an old MilSurp Tokarev Pistol for $300, despite the fact that practically everyone who already owns a MilSurp Tokarev Pistol says otherwise. (I own a Romanian Tokarev TTC, but I would buy a Ruger-762 for $700 in a heartbeat.)

Norinco actually makes a modern Pistol chambered in 7.62x25 Tokarev known as the NP762 which is loosely based on a SIGsauer P220, but since it's made in China it cannot be imported into the USA. However, it is imported into Canada of all places by Dominion Arms.

[ballardw]

Originally Posted by Forte S+W

I've been saying this practically since the day that
Unfortunately, the enduring sentiment is; "Nobody would pay $700 for a brand new Pistol chambered in 7.62x25 Tokarev"

Just like no one would buy a sort of reproduction of a 150-year-old single action revolver for 700?!?
Or a remake of a 110 year old single action semi-auto?
Or a single-shot rifle? (How many Ruger No. 1s have been sold?)

[Forte S+W]

Not a reproduction, a whole new pistol, in this case, a Ruger-57 chambered in 7.62x25 Tokarev. If all folks wanted were reproductions, then those are already available, at least of the Yugoslavian Tokarev, anyway, which have indeed been very successful, by the way.

[44caliberkid]

I sure see a lot of Five Sevens sitting on gun store shelves and tables, when every other type of pistol is sold out. They aren’t setting the world on fire with sales of those. I would also buy a Six Two in a heartbeat. Maybe a 7.62x25 +P, just for Six Two’s, Toks and CZ52’s. I’ve fired some screamin’ reloads out of my CZ, but that was 30 years ago and I don’t have the data anymore.

[Forte S+W]

Personally, I think that 7.62x25 is already hot enough for most purposes, so I don't think that +P loads are necessary, but then again, I'm really not into +P loads in general. If Standard Pressure isn't powerful enough, I move to a more powerful cartridge.

[ballardw]

Originally Posted by 44caliberkid

I sure see a lot of Five Sevens sitting on gun store shelves and tables, when every other type of pistol is sold out. They aren’t setting the world on fire with sales of those. I would also buy a Six Two in a heartbeat. Maybe a 7.62x25 +P, just for Six Two’s, Toks and CZ52’s. I’ve fired some screamin’ reloads out of my CZ, but that was 30 years ago and I don’t have the data anymore.

May not be selling because ammo has been impossible to get or about $1.50 per round when found.

[44 AMP]

Also, by now the novelty has mostly worn off, and between the ammo shortages and the relatively high cost I don't think there's much current demand for a centerfire that delivers approximately .22WMR performance.

[Forte S+W]

That's precisely what we've been saying, we don't want 5.7x28, we want guns chambered in 7.62x25 Tokarev built off of 5.7x28 designs like the Ruger-57.

[44 AMP]

Personally the only interest I have in small bore pistols, (other than .22LR) including high velocity ones is in "specialty guns".

.22 Hornet, (Contender), .221 Fireball (XP-100), and .222 Remington (Contender). These guns have the accuracy to use these varmint rounds to their maximum potential from a handgun. A service class pistol simply doesn't have the accuracy potential to interest me in small bore calibers.

I have a Ruger Super Single Six Convertable, and in a little over 40 years I haven't even fired 2 boxes of .22WMR ammo through it. Lots of .22LR though.

A high speed .22cal semi auto (such as the 5.7mm) simply doesn't fit what I do, doesn't do anything that isn't already better covered by something else I have.

IF it were a precision instrument (like my single shots) then it would have some appeal to me, but as a service type pistol, not so much.

Sounds to me like you want a new design gun made to shoot the old Soviet version of the even older Mauser .30 round. and would be even happier with a "+p+" version. in a gun that would take it. Be aware there would be liability issues with such a round, if your "7.62 Super" will chamber in original 7.62 Tok guns. That alone will turn manufacturers off to the idea...

That's an interesting idea, but there is no significant market demand (or even awareness) and so no gun or ammo maker is going to invest in the cost of making those, without a clearly forseeable return on their investment.

Wave a couple million $ in front of Ruger, and they'll probably make it. Order a few thousand guns, (and pay cash up front) and I'm pretty sure they'll make what ever you want. Otherwise, dream on.

you might consider starting a "club" or something and getting investors who want what you want to start a fund, to pool together enough money to get them made, just watch out for the legal snags that might be lurking. I have no personal experience with that.

Good Luck!

[Forte S+W]

There's no point in a 7.62x25 Tokarev +P or even a Tokarev Super. If it isn't powerful enough as it is, then might as well just replace it with an unlicensed knock-off of the aforementioned 7.5 FK cartridge, which is already practically a Magnum Version of 7.62x25 Tokarev.

Besides, 7.62x25 Tokarev is already more powerful than the 3 major defensive cartridges, pushing anywhere from 390ft-lbs to upwards of 500ft-lbs, effectively beating Standard Pressure 9mm Luger and .45 ACP loads, as well as all but the practically worthless 135gr .40 S&W "poor-man's-.357-SIG" loads, all with better sectional density and a track record for defeating all but Level 3A Body Armor.
So what exactly would be the purpose of an overpressure variant of 7.62x25 Tokarev? It would just start to get into the realms of diminishing returns, considering that in Standard Pressure loads it already beats the established trio of common self-defense cartridges, and once you start getting too far above the energy of those cartridges, you're left with something like full-power .357 Magnum or 10mm Auto, impressive energy, yet so much energy that it has nowhere to go. Not enough to result in visible remote wounding effects, yet so much that without specifically designed projectiles, it'll just punch right through a target without expanding, or otherwise result in fragmentation, which only causes superficial tissue damage.

So yeah, we don't need no stinkin' +Ps, just a new gun to shoot existing loads out of, which are plenty hot enough as is.

[44 AMP]

Not enough to result in visible remote wounding effects, yet so much that without specifically designed projectiles, it'll just punch right through a target without expanding,

And this is what has pretty much always been the situation with the .30 caliber pistol rounds, Luger, Mauser and Tokarev. Without a "magic bullet" they have always been considered poor performers, both as fight stoppers and as game rounds.

High velocity, lots of energy (because of the speed) but the FMJ bullets that have been the standard load for more than a century just don't perform as well as the energy numbers lead one to believe.

this is the downside to high velocity small caliber pistol rounds. The possible velocity falls short of rifle speeds and so doesn't have the same "shock" effect, and the small, light bullets sacrifice the advantages of mass and large frontal area.

Without bullets made to take the most advantage of its abilities and minimize its drawbacks, high energy due to high velocity doesn't deliver as much as it could.

Given the choice, I would use a broadsword over an icepick or a rapier, and a battleaxe is a good thing if you have the strength to wield it effectively. For that matter, so is a mace or warhammer.

To continue the bad metaphor, I feel the big bore magnum is a "chop the head off with one blow" thing compared to a small bore which is more like "poke several small holes rapidly" kind of thing.

Both work, but I have my preferences. You're welcome to your own.

[HiBC]

I use the imperfect analogy of the hydraulic cylinder when looking at the short barrel of a handgun.
The larger surface area of a larger bore bullet gives the gas more area to apply the psi to.

If I want something "More" from a handgun,I'll look to a larger bore.

At the same time, there can be "Enough" Which has been flogged to death with the 9mm vs 45 arguement. Which I do not choose to replay right now.

Bottleneck cases do not gain mag capacity. Straightwall cases present diminishing returns as length increases with a pistol. Magazines only allow so much length.

Barrel length/expansion ratio /acceptable pressures limit powder charge to bore proportions.

Priorities and parameters come together in various "Sweet Spots"

Mag capacity

Bullet frontal area

Penetration

Controllability.

And what is dictated by the target. What is adequate.

For myself, for SD applications,I'm skeptical about bore dia's less than 9mm or greater than 45.

And I'm skeptical of bottleneck cartridges. (No mag capacity gain and short necks)

If a rimless,straight walled " 32 Auto Magnum" offered great advantage and market,I suspect we'd have one...or soon will.The slim ,high cap,pocket pistol is in vogue. I do not know what is realistic for performance.

A 100 gr 30 cal bullet at 1400 fps? Maybe? Where does the expansion/penetration tradeoff take it? I don't know,

The 5.7 anf 7.72 Tokarev and 30 Luger are just not on my "Buy" list.

There MIGHT be a market for a rimless equivalent of the 32 H+R ,aimed at slim pocket pistols,. Even single stack capacity should go 10 rounds,

[44 AMP]

Self defense concerns (mag capacity, etc) are down at the very bottom of my list of what is important in a magnum semi auto.

[HiBC]

I like a big push and roar too! plinking cans with a full power 44 Magnum is FUN!!