The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old February 22, 2017, 05:58 PM   #1
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,420
Range failure.

http://fox2now.com/2017/02/17/accide...sho-gun-range/

Not really any information available that gives a clear picture. The public range has only got 25 yard stations. Because of this, people who want to shoot shorter range must move up in front of the line, and count on those at the line to engage in safe practices.

Short version, a 72 year old man shot another guy in the back who was standing at 15 yards.

His excuse was that he was working on his "unloaded" gun that had failed to fire, and had reassembled it. The round supposedly fired as the slide dropped.

There are plenty of things wrong with this, but I believe that from the very beginning, the maker and owner of the range bears responsibility for having created a badly designed range. Standard ranges have a fifty foot mark.. someone who wants to work at fifty feet must do so in an unsafe manner. Any suit filed will be against the range owners, since the place was not designed with a safe way to engage in shorter range activities. Another reason is that the state is an easy target and a 72 year old man isn't.
__________________
None.
briandg is offline  
Old February 22, 2017, 06:26 PM   #2
1-DAB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 5, 2010
Location: Santa Fe, NM
Posts: 473
lot of things wrong with this.

handling of a gun with someone in front of you. pointing a gun at someone. more than one allowed firing point with multiple shooters present.

blame lies with the shooter who shot the other shooter.

you are responsible for safe gun handling.
1-DAB is offline  
Old February 22, 2017, 06:42 PM   #3
shootniron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 16, 2011
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,599
Quote:
lot of things wrong with this.

handling of a gun with someone in front of you. pointing a gun at someone. more than one allowed firing point with multiple shooters present.

blame lies with the shooter who shot the other shooter.

you are responsible for safe gun handling.
Bingo!

Here we go trying to shift things away from personal responsibility, again.
shootniron is offline  
Old February 22, 2017, 07:24 PM   #4
Targa
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 20, 2014
Posts: 1,913
Ridiculous lay out. Also why I am uncomfortable shooting at the range around people I do not know, I do not trust them any further than I can throw them.
Targa is offline  
Old February 22, 2017, 07:58 PM   #5
WyMark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 10, 2011
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 576
Quote:
blame lies with the shooter who shot the other shooter.
Most of it does, but depending who was there first the "victim" may bear some or most responsibility as well. Getting in front of someone who is shooting is just plain stupid, no matter the reason. And the range should probably post clear rules about the firing line: it should be at the closest distance someone is shooting from.

If you show up and someone is shooting at the 7 yard line, then that's the firing line, doesn't matter if you wanted to shoot 25. Likewise if someone is shooting 25 you can't just decide you're going up to 7. That's idiotic. And cold range rules are in effect any time someone is in front of the line. Put the gun down and don't fiddle with it. Period.
WyMark is offline  
Old February 22, 2017, 09:16 PM   #6
Model12Win
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2012
Posts: 5,854
Oh. My. GOD.

If I ever walked into a range with a setup like that, I would promptly walk right back out!! This was an accident waiting to happen!!
Model12Win is offline  
Old February 22, 2017, 09:27 PM   #7
shafter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2009
Posts: 1,446
So many fails here.

Always watch your back when someone is behind you with a gun. You can't count on them knowing and following safety rules. Don't stick around if you find yourself in an unsafe place. Fail for the guy who got shot.

If the old guy stayed on the shooting line this wouldn't have happened. If the old guy didn't point his gun at something he didn't intend to shoot this wouldn't have happened. Nevertheless even if he disobeyed these rules the other guy still would not have been shot if there had been trigger discipline.

Fail for the owners of the poorly set up range.

Lots of blame to go around but ultimately, the 72y/o shooter is responsible for this.
shafter is offline  
Old February 22, 2017, 10:29 PM   #8
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,420
Of course the fellow holding the weapon bears responsibility for his weapon and anyone in front of it.

The guy who was shot allowed a dangerous condition to form behind him.

The range, set up by the dept of conservation, wasn't set up in a manner that was useful for the majority of handgun shooters.

I see the shooter as being entirely responsible for his poor handling.

The guy uprange was like the guy who hunts deer without an orange vest.

Most of us seem to agree that it was a circ l e jerk. No matter what a nice old g u y he is, don't walk down range and leave him messing with his gun behind you.

The range is nicer than the one that I go to, but mine is private and has very little traffic.
__________________
None.
briandg is offline  
Old February 23, 2017, 08:39 AM   #9
Lohman446
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 22, 2016
Posts: 1,984
One of the issues in situations like this is the need to find one decision as faulty. Incidents like this require a tremendous amount of poor decisions to culminate. There are several factors that, had but a single one been changed, would have resulted in an entirely different outcome.
Lohman446 is offline  
Old February 23, 2017, 08:41 AM   #10
tony pasley
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 13, 2006
Location: western north carolina
Posts: 1,641
A whole lot of stupid going on but bottom line is you are responsible for any bullet that comes out of your gun until it stops.
__________________
Every day Congress is in session we lose a little bit more of our Liberty.
tony pasley is offline  
Old February 23, 2017, 08:57 AM   #11
Onward Allusion
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2009
Location: Back in a Non-Free State
Posts: 2,745
Heh, the club I belong to has this set up. The shortest uncovered pistol bay is 50 ft. A lot of folks shoot shorter distances. Even if the shooter brings their own targets, they arent allowed to bring the target closer. The shooters are required to move the firing line UP. The mentality is that folks can shoot over the 30ft high berm if they miss the closer target.

Personally, if you shoot over a 30 feet high berm from 50 feet because your target is 21' from you, there are bigger problems.

So, if you're stuck in a 25 yard bay because all the rest are taken and want to shoot shorter distances, you need to "move" the firing line - all the while the benches and tables are BEHIND you. Sure, the rules state that there can be no firearm handling behind the firing line but come-on. Someone comes to the range and sees a bunch of tables and benches to put their stuff on . . .

This particular club's board and directors need to get their crap together before someone gets shot in the back.
__________________
AI + Quantum Computing = Human Extinction Event
Onward Allusion is offline  
Old February 23, 2017, 09:19 AM   #12
Lohman446
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 22, 2016
Posts: 1,984
Story time. I went to an indoor range with my daughter and her new Henry rifle and made the mistake of not firmly seating the loading tube (or whatever the piece goes in is called). On shouldering the rifle the spring in it forced it from the rifle and it landed about five feet down the range.

Its a weekday night and we are the only people on the range. Dual doors with the outer controlled from the counter by the staff. I go out and talk to a gentleman and tell him "its just us in there I can go grab it" or something to that effect.

Oh no. Case rifle and remove it from the range. Remove all shooters (both my daughter and I) from the range. He goes in and then locks the door from inside (overrides the remote counter control). He then puts up a "range closed for maintenance" tape across the door. Walks down the range and retrieves the piece before resetting the range to operational. I apologize profusely and he tells me its no big deal they do it a couple times a day for various reasons.

Yes the shooter is always responsible for his or her bullets. A range can make a big difference in regards to the safety of all involved.
Lohman446 is offline  
Old February 23, 2017, 11:06 AM   #13
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 1,808
A shooting range allowed shooters to stand down range to shoot at closer distances??????????????? Surely not! Did I read that wrong?
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...
FireForged is offline  
Old February 23, 2017, 12:12 PM   #14
A J
Member
 
Join Date: September 20, 2016
Posts: 28
There's nothing wrong with the range. The only thing "wrong" was the human beings who were not safely handling their weapons.
A J is offline  
Old February 23, 2017, 03:24 PM   #15
ShootistPRS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 3, 2017
Posts: 1,584
The range that I belong to has seven separate pistol bays. It is an outdoor range and people are allowed to set target stands anywhere in the center portion of any of the bays. We also allow people to move the firing line forward as long as they are no closer to the fixed stands than 7 yards. Each bay can handle multiple shooters and typically only one shooter is firing at a time. The shooter can move forward to shoot and as long as all the shooters are shooting from the same"firing line" it is ok. If a person wants to shoot farther back then he waits until the firing line is moved or he can move to a different bay. There are bullet stops between the bays so adjoining bays can be used at different distances at the same time.
The pistol bays are the only shooting lanes that allow this kind of shooting. All the other shooting areas have a permanent and well defined firing line.

Safe gun handling is the responsibility of each shooter. The same thing applies to someone moving forward to shoot. We would not allow a person to shoot if there was another shooter in front. The firing line is at the point of the current shooter.

Was this the old man's fault, the ranges fault or the guy shooting in front of an established firing line? There is enough responsibility to go around anda general lack of common sense as well. I would not have touched my gunwith someone out front. I would also not have been forward while others were shooting. The club which allowed the action should have had separation walls between the firing positions if they wanted to allow some shooters forward of the established line. Since the club allowed the actions then they hold the bulk of the responsibility for the accident. IMHO
ShootistPRS is offline  
Old February 23, 2017, 04:16 PM   #16
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,420
A lot of thoughts on responsibility. Very interesting thoughts and stories.

I genuinely believe that a guy who had a loaded round in the chamber and was messing around with the pistol as it was aimed dead center at another range visitor cannot be excused.

One of the unasked thoughts is whether a seventy year old duffer should be allowed to shoot?

FOR THE MOMENT LET'S SUSPEND ALL ARGUMENTS OF GUN RIGHTS, OKAY?

This same fellow in some jurisdictions must take driver's exams at his age and will be suspended if he fails eyesight, written, or driving tests. LEAVING ASIDE ALL ARGUMENTS ABOUT GUN RIGHTS, does anyone here believe that he maybe shouldn't have firearms?

A few months ago, I was talking to the range owner. Old fella stopped and talked. Then he took out his rifle to show to me, and dropped that muzzle directly towards Jeff's torso. I quietly reached over and carefully lifted it upwards. The look on Jeff's face wasn't happy.

Four years ago, my mother in law ran my daughter through a red light without noticing, through 45 mph cross traffic, five lanes of it. I was screaming to have her license revoked, but every member of the family stopped me. She eventually stopped driving because of her cataracts, but began again after the surgery, on occasion.

Decades ago an old man caught a couple kids standing in his fishing boat and emptied his .357 magnum at them, most of those rounds went flying a block away, crossed main street, and went into buildings on the east side. Made me want to vomit, thinking about how crazy that was. He missed the kids in the boat.
__________________
None.
briandg is offline  
Old February 23, 2017, 04:48 PM   #17
ShootistPRS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 3, 2017
Posts: 1,584
You can't use his age. I have a friend who is approaching 80 years old. He is a good shooter and a safe shooter. Age has little to do with training and competence. I have been body swept by guys a lot younger than I and have had to continuously remind them to keep their guns pointed down range. You cannot know how tired I get of hearing - "it's not loaded"...

Some people need to be trained, over and over before they get it.
ShootistPRS is offline  
Old February 23, 2017, 05:46 PM   #18
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,420
You know nothing of the man or his training level, nor of his mental competence, his history, nothing, so why do you feel justified in dismissing age as a factor?

If he is used, you know that it will come up and his competence will be questioned. If my mother in law had hurt someone or hurt my daughter, she would have lost everything, and never driven again.

Even if ninety percent of older people are fine, ten percent remain unable to be safe, and it has to be explored.

If it had been a kid, just like yourself, my first thought would have been "young and stupid."
__________________
None.
briandg is offline  
Old February 23, 2017, 06:52 PM   #19
ShootistPRS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 3, 2017
Posts: 1,584
The only valid discussion is ability and competence. You can't take the guns away from a person who reaches 70 years of age. I am too close to that to accept age as a limit.
ShootistPRS is offline  
Old February 23, 2017, 07:36 PM   #20
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,420
At what time did I suggest taking guns from all seventy year old men just because of age? I stated that this man is old, and he shot another man in the back while doing something wrong.

People who reach that age are frequently no longer competent to drive, or shoot. Really simple facts that may not be pertinent to you. Many, many people don't need to be old to be incompetent. People who are dangerously incompetent need to be assessed, just like habitual dangerous drivers.

After brain surgery I quit driving, and now, I cover a few hundred miles a year. Since shooting safely doesn't rely on reflexes, I have no worries about shooting.

You must not make the mistake of putting yourself into situations like this and generalizing to one size fits all.

Tell me, if that seventy year old man shot you, or my mother in law had killed your grandchild, would you ignore age as a possible factor? Would you argue that their age didn't matter?


I don't guess that I have anything more to say
__________________
None.
briandg is offline  
Old February 23, 2017, 07:46 PM   #21
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,420
Btw, once while I was at my range, people came in and set up on the fixed benches next to me, then went uprange for close work. To start with, these guys walked past the two any distance ranges that were empty, to fire at mine. I cleared and parked my pistol but loaded my empty magazines before they started setting up in front of me. Since they had not passed that line, no problem. Before they went down they asked me to clear my hands.

Nobody was shot.
__________________
None.
briandg is offline  
Old February 23, 2017, 08:23 PM   #22
shafter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2009
Posts: 1,446
What I don't get about this scenario is if shooters want to shoot at different distances why not just move the targets and keep everyone on the same line?
shafter is offline  
Old February 23, 2017, 09:35 PM   #23
Onward Allusion
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2009
Location: Back in a Non-Free State
Posts: 2,745
^^^

Because some clubs think that some shooters will shoot over their targets and over the berm/backstop.

In the case of my club, the berm is 30 feet high. If someone would shoot above the berm from the 50 feet firing line (where all the benches are), they would have to be aiming at 30 freaking degrees to shoot over the berm.

How can that happen unintentionally? If it does, then believe me, some rule about moving UP the firing line will have very little impact.
__________________
AI + Quantum Computing = Human Extinction Event
Onward Allusion is offline  
Old February 23, 2017, 09:55 PM   #24
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,420
I don't know. I don't like the idea, the posts are iron pipes and the target holders are tire material.

What sort of idiot staples a target over an upright and blows holes through the uprights and supports?

Answer? All of them. I can't believe that iron pipes can be sawed off at ground level unless it was deliberate.

I suspect that this is one of the reasons that short and fifty foot stations aren't p provided on the same berm, to prevent ricochet off of the longer range posts.

For that matter, there is no reason in the world that people couldn't bring their own target posts.

It's an unsupervised range, and that sets up problems. A guy here pushed open a door to a closed pool. He was drunk and paralyzed himself. He won his suit, mainly because the door was not secure enough. He will win if he uses, because it was unsupervised and there were insufficient safety measures in place.

The range could have been designed better. Afik, nobody has ever been hurt in many years, but now, a court will probably decide it.

There should have been more berms and a few stations set up for the shooters who use fifty feet, at least.
__________________
None.
briandg is offline  
Old February 23, 2017, 10:02 PM   #25
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,420
Just so darned many problems that may have factored in.

Owners, managers, directors, anyone involved in managing a range deserves anything he gets if he doesn't spend day after day looking for flaws in it, and anyone who lets his guard down or forgets his safety protocols needs a reminder.
__________________
None.
briandg is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:10 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.09168 seconds with 8 queries