The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: Semi-automatics

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old September 25, 2021, 03:59 AM   #1
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 9,182
Next build--what should it be?

Already thinking about my "swan song" AR--I just have too many of them sitting in safes so it's time to end the addiction. But I've always had an itch to build a piston gas AR, so I'm interested in gathering up as much info as I can, such as--do they work equally well on x 5.56 and x 308 platforms? special tuning tips? What would your "fantasy" build be (I'm willing to go out on a limb to some degree)?
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old September 25, 2021, 07:35 AM   #2
BornFighting88
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 1, 2021
Posts: 106
.223/5.56mm is the epitome of AR. Great round, fun to shoot a lot of them as recoil is minimal.

If I were going to do a gas gun, and money were no object. I think I would do something that you could change gas piston tuning for suppressed or unsuppressed. 308, I think is a cop-out, as its already pretty readily available.

I am just unable to stop reading about 6mm and 6.5mm pills having great trajectories and terminal ballistics. I don’t know what size action you are going for (as I am not sure AR platforms go with short or long actions like bolt guns do), but maybe 6.5 CM or that 6.5 Grendel?? I spend WAY too much time daydreaming about having more money than brains and what I would do with it. If I were to do a modern gas gun, I would do a cartridge with a steep shoulder, get that powder capacity up, and downrange energy out. Long barrel, too. I’d want to squeeze every last bit out of the shot that I could.

As to tuning, I am a bit of a novice at this. I watched a video one time on a gun rag about finding the setting that best fits your cartridge/rifle combination. They did it on an old SIG556. They dialed it all the way open, so all the gas escaped and the action didn’t really operate. Then they dialed the gas port up one notch, cycled the chamber, fired, and rinse and repeat until they got the reliability they wanted.

If I am completely bat-scat, tell me. But it seemed logical.

Now…. I am under the impression that the BCG runs rather clean, as there is no direct gas bleed. But doesn’t the piston get pretty caked up like the old Garand pistons did?? How hard are they to clean out??

Anyways…. My thoughts would be something 6.5mm, modern, and long barrel. That would be FUN to scare the snot out of varmints with. Especially suppressed… poor suckers wouldn’t know what may or may not have hit them….
BornFighting88 is offline  
Old September 25, 2021, 08:06 AM   #3
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 9,182
Hmmm,, maybe a 6.5 prc or something along those lines; I already have lots of creedmoors and grendels and their spawn. I'm thinking something along the lines of an AK-type gas system--they get cruddy but generally don't go down.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old September 25, 2021, 09:31 AM   #4
brasscollector
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2015
Posts: 525
How about a 270 MSR or 22 predator?
__________________
He may look dumb, but that's just a disguise.
-Charlie Daniels
brasscollector is offline  
Old September 25, 2021, 04:30 PM   #5
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 9,182
Interesting suggestions, thanks.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old September 26, 2021, 07:01 PM   #6
BornFighting88
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 1, 2021
Posts: 106
I was just reading about 6.8 Western. I think I would just have a blast with that.
BornFighting88 is offline  
Old September 27, 2021, 01:45 AM   #7
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 9,182
Quote:
I was just reading about 6.8 Western. I think I would just have a blast with that.
I thought about that--I already have a model 70 in 270 WSM so it's a bit difficult for me to justify the extra dies etc.

I'm rather excited by Berger's recent development of larger, more efficient .257 bullets, I'm considering a 25 PRC since Hornady I believe purpose designed it to be compatible with AR10 platforms.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old September 27, 2021, 07:14 PM   #8
BornFighting88
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 1, 2021
Posts: 106
Want to overgas?? Hahah Consider that 25 CM, I just read another article on that. The author called it 2 fiddy hill billy. Uses long for caliber high ogive pills, almost no recoil, but magnum brass, same length as 6.5 CM, just necked down a lot. They waffled targets many many hundreds of yards away. What the author really liked most was that they could touch off the round, and keep eyes on the target and watch the impact/miss to see what they had to do to compensate for a hit.

Author used Hornady A-tip bullets, but I would be just as happy with the ELD-X or ELD-M bullets. Can you imagine the pressures that thing would see??
BornFighting88 is offline  
Old September 27, 2021, 07:55 PM   #9
Shane Tuttle
Staff
 
Join Date: November 28, 2005
Location: Montana
Posts: 9,217
You asking US (well, many of us) what your next build should be is like Bruce Lee asking other martial artists what his next move should be when approaching an assailant...
__________________
If it were up to me, the word "got" would be deleted from the English language.

Posting and YOU: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting
Shane Tuttle is offline  
Old September 28, 2021, 12:38 AM   #10
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 9,182
Quote:
You asking US (well, many of us) what your next build should be is like Bruce Lee asking other martial artists what his next move should be when approaching an assailant...
LOL--but that's only because the internet allows people to pretend that they know a lot more than they really do, I'm just another home hobbiest who knows enough to know what he doesn't know.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old September 28, 2021, 12:48 AM   #11
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 9,182
Quote:
Want to overgas?? Hahah Consider that 25 CM, I just read another article on that. The author called it 2 fiddy hill billy. Uses long for caliber high ogive pills, almost no recoil, but magnum brass, same length as 6.5 CM, just necked down a lot. They waffled targets many many hundreds of yards away. What the author really liked most was that they could touch off the round, and keep eyes on the target and watch the impact/miss to see what they had to do to compensate for a hit.

Author used Hornady A-tip bullets, but I would be just as happy with the ELD-X or ELD-M bullets. Can you imagine the pressures that thing would see??
Custom manufacturers are increasingly bringing out high BC monolithic 25 bullets, I sense there is serious interest in the 25's on the long range comp circuit, the retained energy of the 120-135 gr range in the PRC is supposed to be excellent. I've gotten past caring very much about whether a cartridge is a bore-burner or not, I'm burning out too.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old September 28, 2021, 03:58 PM   #12
BornFighting88
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 1, 2021
Posts: 106
Stag, you just made my day.

Party on.
BornFighting88 is offline  
Old September 28, 2021, 05:45 PM   #13
Shadow9mm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2012
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 1,907
My questions would be as follows

What do you intend to do with it? Range toy, competition gun, hunting rifle. if so, what will you be hunting, varmints, small game, or medium game?

how far will you be shooting/hunting?

do you want a common cartridge or a niche/wildct?

lastly, what calibers do you already have? I presume you want something new or something to fill a gap in your capabilities.
__________________
I don't believe in "range fodder" that is why I reload.
Shadow9mm is offline  
Old September 29, 2021, 12:15 AM   #14
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 9,182
Quote:
lastly, what calibers do you already have? I presume you want something new or something to fill a gap in your capabilities.
These days I do it mostly for the fun of building a gun for a new cartridge and then reloading for it to see how well I can shoot it. I do develop hunting loads, but my woods wandering has been curtailed in my sunset years. pretty much like building model airplanes when I was a kid.

So far I haven't found any "takers" among barrel manufacturers for a 25 PRC AR barrel--might have to change my ambition to something else like the creedmoor or switch to a bolt gun.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old September 29, 2021, 05:29 AM   #15
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 9,182
Well, sorry for the tease, I did select 25 PRC cause it was basically just weird enough and intriguing I went for it. Finding 25 blanks or barrels isn't easy, and couldn't find anyone willing to take the dive on a gas gun, so I chose instead to stay "easy" and just order a savage prefit made by Preferred Barrel Blanks. I have all the Savage rifle components on hand already and (theoretically) should be a simple build. I've never used Preferred before--the "big boys" are either 'unobtanium' or year(s) out from production possibility so I decided to give these guys a try.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old September 29, 2021, 05:49 AM   #16
SR420
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2005
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 3,279
Gas piston rifle? I'll go out on a limb and suggest an M14 / M1A.

You can choose barrel length, weight, ROT, and caliber. (.308 or 6.5)
Smith Enterprise has the better parts, and treatments that make for a low maintenance, easy to clean reliable rifle that has great repeatable accuracy.

Multiple stocks are available in wood, synthetic, composite, and light weight aluminum chassis stocks. You can have a butt stock that is fixed, retractable, or even a folder. You can even use a high butt stock adapter on the lightest aluminum chassis stock that redirects the recoil impulse straight back into your shoulder.
SR420 is offline  
Old September 29, 2021, 05:53 AM   #17
Shadow9mm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2012
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 1,907
[I know you said you settled on the 25prc, but if your still interested in a quarter bore ar, you could look into the 25gpc, general purpose cartridge. One of the channels I watch built one. Interesting little thing
https://youtu.be/zgQFo7fwHic
__________________
I don't believe in "range fodder" that is why I reload.
Shadow9mm is offline  
Old September 29, 2021, 06:10 AM   #18
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 9,182
Quote:
Gas piston rifle? I'll go out on a limb and suggest an M14 / M1A.

You can choose barrel length, weight, ROT, and caliber. (.308 or 6.5)
Smith Enterprise has the better parts, and treatments that make for a low maintenance, easy to clean reliable rifle that has great repeatable accuracy.

Multiple stocks are available in wood, synthetic, composite, and light weight aluminum chassis stocks. You can have a butt stock that is fixed, retractable, or even a folder. You can even use a high butt stock adapter on the lightest aluminum chassis stock that redirects the recoil impulse straight back into your shoulder.
__________________
The History and Development of the M14 EBR
One day, maybe. always thought they were a bit pricey but definitely class.
Quote:
[I know you said you settled on the 25prc, but if your still interested in a quarter bore ar, you could look into the 25gpc, general purpose cartridge. One of the channels I watch built one. Interesting little thing
https://youtu.be/zgQFo7fwHic
That does look intriguing--I've long thought the 6.8spc is one of the best AR15 hybrid designs ever made for the platform.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old September 29, 2021, 04:35 PM   #19
BornFighting88
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 1, 2021
Posts: 106
Are you opposed to those carbon fibre wrapped barrels?? I know I sound like a shill for them. But I am really impressed with mine. I think they have AR prefits, too.

Proof research has AR pre-fit tubes. Both Stainless steel and fiber wrapped. They do NOT have any 1/4 bores, which is sad. They have 6 and 6.5mm and .243, but no .25, which is odd. Maybe some day.

Carbon six, I haven't been able to navigate their site too well. I call them when I have questions. Gene is the fella I deal with when I call them. Just fantastic, and quick with answers. Maybe they might be able to cater to what you want. I think a .25-cal AR would just be too much fun, I wouldn't know what to do with myself.
BornFighting88 is offline  
Old September 29, 2021, 08:15 PM   #20
Nathan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2001
Posts: 5,481
@BornFighting88

Sell me some carbon fiber barrels! Seriously, should I get one? Are they more accurate than stainless steel? Is there a top secret group of Benchrest shooters setting world records with these? or are they more accurate than same weight steel barrels?
Nathan is offline  
Old September 29, 2021, 08:18 PM   #21
Shadow9mm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2012
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 1,907
To my understanding you can get match accuracy, although not bench rest accuracy from them. The main benefit is the weight savings. I could be wrong, but that is what I have seen so far.
__________________
I don't believe in "range fodder" that is why I reload.
Shadow9mm is offline  
Old September 29, 2021, 10:54 PM   #22
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 9,182
I looked at a lot of the carbon wrap barrels as well--I think I did find one that could do a quarter bore but then the whole magnum bolt for a PRC thing came up and that's when they generally say no. A CFW 25 creedmoor is a distinct possibility--and has the advantage that you can actually find brass for it--which the PRC you can't. I read a lot of stuff about the advantages of carbon--and then read some "myth-busters" counter-arguments about them. It sounds to me like their principal advantage is weight savings, pretty much doesn't bring anything else "better" to the table. I'm not an "ultralight obsessed" shooter, in fact I find the lighter you go the more issues you'll have holding a steady sight picture--unless you compensate with other add-on devices. I think I'd try a CFW barrel in a light recoil cartridge though. The prices have come down enough to make them competitive with top-tier barrel makers it seems to me.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old September 29, 2021, 11:10 PM   #23
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 9,182
I like the idea behind the 25 gpc that shadow mentioned since I already like the 6.8 spc case in AR's and have already put together some wildcats from the parent case. And my "plain ol" 6.8 spc barrel from ARP is a fabulous shooter for an AR. I also built a 25-45 from a Sharps barrel when they first came out, it's pretty much a "one trick pony"--but it does that one trick extremely well.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old September 30, 2021, 01:00 AM   #24
Shadow9mm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2012
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 1,907
Quote:
Originally Posted by stagpanther View Post
I like the idea behind the 25 gpc that shadow mentioned since I already like the 6.8 spc case in AR's and have already put together some wildcats from the parent case. And my "plain ol" 6.8 spc barrel from ARP is a fabulous shooter for an AR. I also built a 25-45 from a Sharps barrel when they first came out, it's pretty much a "one trick pony"--but it does that one trick extremely well.
I thought about the 25-45 sharps as well. But didn't think it was worth mention. Rather than one trick pony I would say very limited scope of use. Also, I did not hear much about it when it came out, and have heard nothing since, figured it pretty much died out.

Another consideration might be the 300 Ham'r. It's proprietary from Wilson combat. Similar to 300 blackout. But rather than focusing on subsonic performance with heavy bullets, it was designed to duplicate 30-30 ballistics in an ar platform for medium game hunting. Not sure if it lives up to that, but an interesting concept. I suspect it will die out though.
__________________
I don't believe in "range fodder" that is why I reload.
Shadow9mm is offline  
Old September 30, 2021, 03:01 AM   #25
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 9,182
Quote:
I thought about the 25-45 sharps as well. But didn't think it was worth mention. Rather than one trick pony I would say very limited scope of use. Also, I did not hear much about it when it came out, and have heard nothing since, figured it pretty much died out.

Another consideration might be the 300 Ham'r. It's proprietary from Wilson combat. Similar to 300 blackout. But rather than focusing on subsonic performance with heavy bullets, it was designed to duplicate 30-30 ballistics in an ar platform for medium game hunting. Not sure if it lives up to that, but an interesting concept. I suspect it will die out though.
The 25-45 does live up to its claim of 3000 fps with the 87 gr hotcor, and I've shot some one-hole groups with it. For a lightweight deer AR I suspect it would be ideal within reasonable range.

I've built an ARP tac 30--another cat based on the 6.8 case--and when I looked at the 300 Ham'r I didn't see anything compelling it brought to the table over the tac 30--except that dies are made for it--going through the case resizing for the tac 30 is a bit of a pain involving the use of oddball dies.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:21 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2020 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.09512 seconds with 10 queries