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Old January 23, 2020, 02:57 PM   #1
308Loader
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SS109 load data

Picked up some pulls from RMR, looking for data. should I just use 62gr FMJ start loads? seat to crimp grove for OAL?
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Old January 23, 2020, 04:03 PM   #2
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That's how I would go about it.

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Old January 23, 2020, 05:57 PM   #3
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Have to admit it was an impulse buy, $60 for 1000 projectiles... got them all sorted with a magnet for the 109's. weighed and measured a few, seem consistent. Then their are the others in the box, sorted by weight and bullet construction, put a caliper to them and come out with .224 so they will be used accordingly.

Not looking to reproduce the military's equivalent for this bullet, just cheap accurate, plinkers. Not shooting my steel with these, sand/clay back stop. guess ill run some ladders with a couple of powders and see.

Seems to be a waste of the steel penetrators, unless the P-Dogs up armor. inexpensive bullets are just that. my rifle loves 62gr FMJ's thought I would give this a go.
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Old January 23, 2020, 06:41 PM   #4
Marco Califo
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The Accurate/Western Powders load guide download includes loads specific to the M855 62 grain NATO bullet. See the official load data sources sticky at top of this forum.
I have used factory ammo to "drill" through 12" of steel reinforced concrete. So, yes it is effective at meeting the milspec requirement of penetrating a steel helmet at whatever yards.
You cannot shoot it at National Forest ranges because it can spark. It also destroys steel target plates.
No practical uses. Some guys tried to rob a bank in body armor shooting this stuff. They died after holding off LAPD for 30 minutes. Google North Hollywood shootout.
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Old January 23, 2020, 07:13 PM   #5
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.556 through 12" of steel reinforced poured concert? hu.

It is better these hit paper and dirt I guess. Must say I would not ask my 308 to be able to shoot through 12" poured reinforced concrete. hammer drilling or core drilling this material can be a task.
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Old January 23, 2020, 07:21 PM   #6
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There is a 7.62 equal: M2 I think. Was a 30-06 projectile with steel core.
I was surprised it went all the way through on the 36th round at same point of impact. Fun stuff!
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Old January 23, 2020, 07:33 PM   #7
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"No practical uses. Some guys tried to rob a bank in boy armor shooting this stuff. They died after holding off LAPD for 30 minutes. Google North Hollywood shootout."

from what I have seen it was AK's and an AR's in 1997. Body armor has advanced since then. again I'm not trying to reproduce a Kevlar/steel body armor, steel helmet at 800 yrds… just plinking at up to 200m, paper, dirt, inexpensive… maybe not practical bullet construction, but cheep and available.
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Old January 23, 2020, 08:44 PM   #8
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Quote:
Have to admit it was an impulse buy, $60 for 1000 projectiles... got them all sorted with a magnet for the 109's. weighed and measured a few, seem consistent.
... and this is how when things run amuck in the supply chain we are prepared. Likely 1/2 of the reloading supplies I have were not a result of me going shopping for them, they were a result of seeing what I felt was a good deal at the time and buying stuff.

Several months ago either on this forum or another someone mentioned that Nosler was selling 400 rounds of 223 Rem 40gr Trophy Grade™ Ballistic Tip® Ammo (400ct) + Free Ammo Can *** Bolt Action Only *** for something like $125 including ammo can (plastic) and shipping. The stuff is normally $212. Looking forward to trying them in my 1:12 bolt gun. Each 10 rounds is in a nice plastic holder. I sure as heck did not wake up that morning planning to buy 400 rounds of 223 but hey, couldn't say no and that's how it goes.

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Old January 24, 2020, 03:01 PM   #9
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"...just use 62gr FMJ start loads?..." Yep. Same ammo as the U.S. made M855. One loads for the bullet weight. Not its construction. Work up from the Start load. Not just use the Start load though.
"...Was a .30-06 projectile with steel core...." Nope. .30 M2 used a 152 grain lead cored bullet at the same velocity as .30 AP ammo after 1940.
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Old January 24, 2020, 06:04 PM   #10
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Rifle is 20" AR15 556 chamber
load plan is:

mixed brass
WSR primer
COL 2.260
BLC2

10 rounds at lyman 50th start 23.0-23.6-24.2-25.4- and 2 at lyman max 26.0

we shall see how it goes.
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Old January 24, 2020, 06:22 PM   #11
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one other thing to note, these bullets range from 61.9gr to 63gr. sorting to over under at 62.5. or in other words bullets below 62.5 will be loaded in one batch and over in another.

or am I splitting hairs here?
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Old January 26, 2020, 05:09 PM   #12
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The weight differences probably reflect what tooling the bullets came off of. If you sort them to the nearest 0.1 grains, you will probably find there are several narrow bell curve-shaped distributions, each around a peak for each set of tooling whose output was combined to make up the lot. If you identify a couple of dozen bullets as likely off one of each of the same set of tooling (select them from the peaks), you can try shooting them to see if one tool tended to produce a more accurate bullet than the others, if you even care about that. As for the weight affecting pressure, just get a load that is safe with the heaviest bullets in the lot and the weight difference will then not to matter to anything but very long range accuracy.
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Old January 27, 2020, 06:56 PM   #13
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Tenth grain sorting, I better buy more containers (paper plates). went and shot 50 of these less than 62 1/2gr batch according to load plan (ladder)25.4gr shot the best with 2 major flyers. The others leading up to this charge were less than desirable at 100yrds. While meant to be cheap plinking rounds for paper, accuracy is sort of a goal, not going to try to punch a steel helmet at 800yrds, but a respectable group at 100 would be a plus.

Thanks for the input, will keep after it and see where they land.
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Old January 28, 2020, 08:51 PM   #14
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Probably the fliers are rounds for which the penetrator was slightly off-center. That sort of issue requires a bullet spinner or a torsion pendulum to identify.
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Old January 29, 2020, 06:05 PM   #15
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Kind of what I figured, the bullet construction has too many possible variances in the parts to be consistent. especially at government contractor rates

torsion pendulum = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_b1Wtk29R4. Ouch my fat head! yep not going to try to fully understand that. simply put, the off center of gravity portion of the bullet will introduce wobble or yaw in the flight path?

bullet spinner = would be a device that spins up a bullet on its long axis, the off center portion would interduce measurable wobble? closest loogle got was a fishing spinner bait.

For my needs ill let my simple mind rest and accept the flyers. Thanks nick.
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Old February 1, 2020, 05:43 PM   #16
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The off-center CG circles around the bore axis as the bullet goes down the tube. Think of it like a weight you are spinning on a string. The instance the muzzle releases the bullet, like letting go of the string, the bullet stars moving in a direction tangent to the side of the bore it was closest to and in the direction of the barrel twist. That fling is slow (usually on the order of inches to a couple of feet per second), but stays with the bullet all the way to the target, drifting to the side (or up or down or in any direction in between, depending on where the CG was when it cleared the muzzle). It lands at a distance from the POI that is the time of flight times the drift velocity it introduces.

The wobble is also there and decreases the BC some by adding to drag a bit.

A horizontal torsion pendulum rests the bullet in a small trough and you can rotate it in the trough to see if the angle of suspension changes. Very slow process.

A bullet spinner does spin the bullet, as you describe. There are different designs out there. One created by Harold Vaughn uses compressed air to spin the bullet in a small tube and a vibration pickup to detect wobble. One created by Mid Tompkins that Bart B. has described before was a special collet made for a Dremel tool operated through an ammeter. The tool bullet was mounted in the collet and the tool turned on and if the bullet was unbalanced the motor's current demand would increase because of the added force needed to spin despite the axis wobbling (fighting the gyroscopic stabilizing tendency of the tool's own spin, plus some increase in bearing friction that would be associated with that).
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