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#1 |
Junior Member
Join Date: March 9, 2021
Posts: 12
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Game Wardens and your constitutional rights
Game wardens enforce states’ wildlife and hunting laws. In many of those states, the law says those wardens may “go upon any property, outside of buildings, posted or otherwise.” Wardens rely on this authority to routinely enter, wander around, and install surveillance cameras on rural private land.
They can do this because the U.S. Supreme Court gutted crucial property and privacy protections with the “open fields” doctrine. That doctrine, first invented by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1924, says the Constitution does not protect any land beyond the home and its immediate surrounding area (known as the “curtilage”). But states can provide greater protections under their constitutions. My organization, the Institute for Justice, is a pro bono non-profit law firm that does not charge its clients for legal services. IJ has brought one case challenging game wardens' use of the open fields doctrine under the Tennessee Constitution, which protects each individual’s “persons, houses, papers and possessions” from “unreasonable searches and seizures.” We want to bring more such cases, particularly in the following states: Alabama, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Ohio, and Rhode Island. To that end, we are looking for hunters and private property owners who want to exercise their constitutional rights. For more information, check out IJ's lawsuit against the Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency or go to Report Abuse at https://ij.org/report-abuse. |
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#2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 23, 2005
Location: US
Posts: 3,753
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This forum is not going to be very friendly toward your cause, at least in publicizing it here. While I can appreciate you’re willingness to help, solicitations for people who want to “exercise their constitutional rights” in the context you bring up sounds an awful lot like “break a game law on private property so we can challenge the open fields doctrine in your state.” We generally do not condone such activity.
After all, a court is not likely to make a ruling on state constitutional grounds of search and seizure unless you’ve already been charged with a violation by the rabbit sheriff (I mean game warden). Open fields doctrine also is rooted in some long standing tradition. It’s generally not unlawful, immoral, or ethically wrong to walk through a large block of woods owned by another, even without permission. Many portions of the Appalachian trail and the N.C. mountains to sea trail cross private lands, and both are well trod by people without specific permission to cross said lands. Maybe Tennessee holds different views, but I see that being more of an anomaly than a standard. I could see such challenges being successful for properties entirely fenced in and posted along the entire property line. Short of that, I wouldn’t hold my breath.
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#3 |
member
Join Date: June 3, 2017
Location: South
Posts: 1,422
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Where I live, we wish we had more Game Wardens. And may God bless them all. In all my years of hunting and I do a lot, I have never seen them going around and installingl security camera's on private Property. What are the reason they would do so? Something must be illegal to take the time to do this. Hard enough for them to just enforce game laws and violations on Public land and Forrest.
That said, there are some places I wish they would go onto Private property and do surveillance. There are some clubs many us us feel certain they are taking Deer and not reporting them. Many of these clubs do not have the ethics now as they did in the past. Last edited by Carl the Floor Walker; March 9, 2021 at 02:00 PM. |
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#4 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 22, 1998
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 4,362
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Quote:
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#5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 28, 2009
Location: North Central Illinois
Posts: 2,758
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If I understand correctly, a Game Warden in Illinois can knock on your front door, and demand to see the contents of your freezer to check status / legality of any wild game being stored there. No search warrant needed. I have a problem with that. I no longer hunt or fish, and have never taken game or fish without the proper licensing and permits. I have nothing to hide, but I have a problem with warrantless search.
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#6 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 7, 2009
Location: Western New York
Posts: 2,736
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Not a great first post. No problems here in New York with our game wardens. They’ve been very, very helpful to me on several occasions.
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#7 |
Junior Member
Join Date: March 9, 2021
Posts: 12
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The reason you have no problems is because New York has repudiated the Open Fields Doctrine:
People v. Scott, 79 N.Y.2d 474, 593 N.E.2d 1328 (1992) (open fields doctrine . . . did not protect citizens' fundamental rights under State Constitution and would not be adopted as law of New York) |
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#8 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 16,380
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Personally I don't see why people have a problem with game wardens going on their property. It makes no sense.
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#9 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 16, 2006
Location: IOWA
Posts: 8,783
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Bad-Spin
Quote:
![]() Be Safe !!!
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'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing. ![]() |
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#10 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 21, 2011
Location: way out here
Posts: 262
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You all haven't met the one who thinks he is above the law, like 'who is going to complain'.I have, and in spite of many years of close association with many levels of law enforcement, I finally had a face to face with one who didn't mind trespassing, admitting it, and later saying that he'd even let his grandson shoot a deer on my property 'because he didn't think I'd mind'. Well, of all who should know the laws and rules, that would be him. Our last encounter, I called him everything but nice, and made him leave his bow killed deer for coyote bait on my property. Having said all that, I firmly believe that 99% are doing their job, and have my full support, but if I need them on my property, I'll call them.
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#11 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 7, 2009
Location: Western New York
Posts: 2,736
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Take your services somewhere else. If you have to stay here, put an add in the classifieds.
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#12 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 25, 2006
Posts: 1,819
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I'm hearing the same tune on here that was playing before January 6th... unreal.
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#13 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 20, 2007
Posts: 2,648
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Pennsylvania recently changed from "Game Protectors" to "Game Wardens" officially. Everyone used that term anyway. They are welcome on our place; wish they would catch the weasels that shoot deer and leave them.
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#14 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 20, 2007
Location: S.E. Minnesota
Posts: 4,720
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I have heard stories of police (probably sheriff's office) using game wardens to enter private property without a warrant in order to do surveillance having nothing to do with enforcing the game laws -- because it would be illegal for them to do it themselves but the game warden has special privileges. Assuming this is true (it smells true) I have a problem with that. And I'm not a hunter and very seldom fish.
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"Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth |
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#15 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 7, 2009
Location: Western New York
Posts: 2,736
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Nothing like “hear-say” to support a point of view.
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#16 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 3,234
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Quote:
![]() I have two cousins that are Game Wardens........they laugh at "conservation officer", considering it a title that makes millennials happy.
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#17 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 16, 2006
Location: IOWA
Posts: 8,783
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IOWA, for one
Quote:
![]() We also refer to them as "Carp-Cops". Be Safe !!!
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#18 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 7, 2008
Location: pa.
Posts: 2,512
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if i find camera,s on my land that i was not informed about and approved to be there, they will disappear.
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#19 | |
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,475
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Quote:
If you can't support a claim like this with verifiable, credible, corroborating evidence the reasonable inference is that your claim is not true. Your "smell test" is meaningless and suggests a bad case of confirmation bias.
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#20 |
Staff
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 30,496
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We've all heard stories about abuses of authority (and actual mistakes) by Game Wardens/Conservation officers. What we need is documented evidence beyond rumor and hearsay.
Having the CO's operating under different rules than regular law enforcement isn't automatically a bad thing. I know of one case where a Conservation Officer was able to stop an armed multiple murderer because he operated under different rules than the police. the killer had murdered 3 teenage campers, and evaded police for most of a summer by hiding in the woods. He had been spotted several times, armed with a rifle, but the police couldn't catch him, and, under the rules of engagement at that time, the police could not shoot him, unless he shot at them, which the suspect never did. A CO, operating under rules different from the police spotted him and fired several shots, wounding him with buckshot, leading to his immediate capture, arrest and eventual conviction. In that case, those different rules lead to the capture of a murderer, so I don't automatically consider them a bad thing. That being said, individuals can, and sometimes do exceed their authority, and when this is a deliberate act, we need to have it ended. I am unsure of the legality of placing cameras or other devices on private property without the informed consent of the owner, when not part of a court ordered investigation. (obtained via a warrant). I understand that a Game Warden's "warrantless" search authority generally does not include the interior of buildings (though it may include vehicles..) Different states have different rules. Anyone/everyone operating under the law to enforce the law needs to stay within the law while doing it. This is tough and leads to a lot of frustration sometimes, but its our system. There are flaws, there are things we should improve, documented evidence of instances where violations have happened will help do that.
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#21 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 17, 2005
Location: Swamp dweller
Posts: 6,213
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Here in Florida CO or Fish and Wildlife officers have the ultimate police powers in Florida. Can access anyone's property with out warrants. Unsure about gaining access to ones home
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#22 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 6, 2014
Posts: 6,655
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Yep, here in FL cops take them along for remote property busts so they may not need a warrant;
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#23 | |
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,475
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Quote:
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"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
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#24 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 20, 2007
Location: S.E. Minnesota
Posts: 4,720
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Legal question for Frank and the other lawyers: If hypothetically the sheriff did take a game warden along to search for drugs or something, (hear me out) he could legally enter the property without a warrant to search for poached game, etc, and snoop around while he's there. If he did find illegal drugs or something totally unrelated to to fish and game regulations, wouldn't that evidence be inadmissible in court? I don't think it could even be used as probable cause for the sheriff to get a warrant; "fruit of the poisoned tree"
I'm wondering if the apocryphal stories are just that.
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#25 | |
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,475
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Quote:
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"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
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