45 auto primer size choice, buying brass

Shadow9mm · November 11, 2022, 09:50 AM

So i got a 45 again after a long while. I know it was designed with large primer pocket. However there seems to be a fair bit of small primer pocket brass available.

None of the cartridges I currently load for use large pistol primers. I have been using small rifle primers for most of my loads for 9mm, 38spl, 357mag, and 223 as that is what i have.

Im really leaning towards getting small primer 45 brass so i dont have to source and stock large primers.

Should i get small primer 45 brass and keep all my primers the same? Or should i start looking for large primers and get large primer brass?

**44 AMP** · November 11, 2022, 12:21 PM

Quote:

However there seems to be a fair bit of small primer pocket brass available.

It's probably available because few .45ACP reloaders will touch it.

I know I won't buy any, and if I happen to find some has worked its way into my brass, I will toss them out. (ok if I wind up with some in full box amounts, I'll trade of sell those, but the odd case or three, I'll just toss)

Its not that small primer .45acp brass won't work or that there's anything wrong with it (beside breaking tradition), its just I don't want the hassle of having to keep the brass separated. I have quite a few .45acp cases, been loading them since the early 70s. ALL of them are large pistol primers.

You're in a situation where everything you load is small primers, I'm not. I load for several pistol rounds that use large primers, as well as several that use small primers, so for ME, small primer .45acp is a needless complication.

For you, it would make some sense. IF the pistol you are using has the power to reliably ignite the small rifle primers you are using. The shortages suck...

Jim Watson · November 11, 2022, 12:29 PM

I have been loading .45 Small for "lost brass" matches, a couple of people have been bringing me the brass that they would normally scrap. I save the true .45 ACP (large) for occasions when I can recover my empties.

But in the OP's position, I would just standardize on the Smalls. Most loaders hate them and will give them away.

I have shot a fair number of 9mm and a few .45s with small rifle primers and they all went off in my hammer fired guns. I need to try some in a Glock to let a friend know if he can substitute there, too.

Sevens · November 11, 2022, 03:23 PM

I definitely have both. When the market wasn't TOTAL LUNACY, the small primer brass was fantastic for lost brass situations which for me also includes family that needs ammo that may not return the brass. And like you said, it's really easy to find/get small primer .45 brass.

However, my preference is always going to be LP .45 brass, and this is mostly because I started collecting my .45 brass in the late 1980's. And it's been a massive benefit in this LUNATIC primer market because I've got lots of LP primers in stock from before the world fell off a cliff and I only use the LP in .45, 10mm and .44 and my volume of 10mm and .44 these days is pretty low. I have started making a bit of .45 Colt but whatever.

My situation is different than yours since you have nothing on hand, but diversification is, IMO, always a benefit.

The grand old .45 primer size debate mostly affects handloaders who don't separate and inspect their brass. I certainly understand their angst, but I have 0% of that angst, it causes me no issues whatsoever.

**44 AMP** · November 11, 2022, 04:57 PM

Its not angst, and not really the need to separate the brass, as I do separate by headstamp commercial cases, anyway, its the need to stop, and change the priming tool JUST for those cases. Nothing else I have that uses that same headsize (and there are lots) uses small primers.

I see two distinct possibilities of disaster, the first is not realizing its a small primer case until you try to seat a large primer in it, and the second is having changed the priming punch to small, forgetting to change it back and seating a large primer with it. Neither one yields good results and at while due diligence does prevent either, these days, losing a primer for any reason just brings tears to my eyes.....

Shadow9mm · November 11, 2022, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Its not angst, and not really the need to separate the brass, as I do separate by headstamp commercial cases, anyway, its the need to stop, and change the priming tool JUST for those cases. Nothing else I have that uses that same headsize (and there are lots) uses small primers.

I see two distinct possibilities of disaster, the first is not realizing its a small primer case until you try to seat a large primer in it, and the second is having changed the priming punch to small, forgetting to change it back and seating a large primer with it. Neither one yields good results and at while due diligence does prevent either, these days, losing a primer for any reason just brings tears to my eyes.....

My thinking was using only small should weed those problems out. And if a large somehow gets mixed in, the small primer wont seat, no harm done.

**44 AMP** · November 11, 2022, 05:50 PM

Quote:

My thinking was using only small should weed those problems out. And if a large somehow gets mixed in, the small primer wont seat, no harm done.

Sounds reasonable to me. The difference in the feel of putting a small primer in a large pocket would be an instant tip off, for me.

Marco Califo · November 12, 2022, 12:42 PM

I am saving my SPP 45 brass to cast into paper weights. What is the melting point for Cartridge brass? I think propane torches with a BBQ tank might not do it.

Jim Watson · November 12, 2022, 01:03 PM

If you were closer, I would help you save the cost of fuel, as would Shadow.

Shadow9mm · November 12, 2022, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marco Califo

I am saving my SPP 45 brass to cast into paper weights. What is the melting point for Cartridge brass? I think propane torches with a BBQ tank might not do it.

According to google, brass melts at 1710F ( 930C ). Which should be achievable with a propane torch which typically burn in the 2,000F to 2,250F range. If you interested in getting rid of them instead PM me.

Marco Califo · November 12, 2022, 06:06 PM

I am looking for my crucible!
I already have 2 kinds of 45 brass, Starline regular and Starline +P which is thicker, to keep separate. Since I bought 500 new of each from Starline, I am not sure where my 45 range brass stands in processing.
Right now www.Starline.com has BOTH in stock for immediate shipment at around $120 per 500, with free shipping.
I am not a fan of the SPP 45 brass at all. I rate them just a hair above Blazer aluminum and Russian steel cases. I had a few. Then I got a zip lock bag as an unwanted extra in a trade of good brass. IMO they get in the way, and will never be used much. To me it is not worth the time to find them all, pack and ship them. I also do not want them to ever comeback again in range brass.

**Unclenick** · November 12, 2022, 06:56 PM

Standardizing on small primer pockets has three potential drawbacks:

1.) If I go to Starline, where I currently buy all my new 45 Auto brass, they don't make it with small primer pockets. Indeed, I am unaware of anything but pre-fired SPPP 45 Auto brass on the market.

2.) Some of my 1911's, having been fit up old-school with the barrel tipped up pretty high, make off-center strikes that would be further from the center of an SPP than of an LPP, and that makes me a little uncomfortable from a reliability standpoint.

3.) Should I find myself with a surplus of 45 Auto brass that I want to trade to somebody for something else, I would expect the SPP brass to be harder to trade.

Shadow9mm · November 12, 2022, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unclenick

Standardizing on small primer pockets has three potential drawbacks:

1.) If I go to Starline, where I currently buy all my new 45 Auto brass, they don't make it with small primer pockets. Indeed, I am unaware of anything but pre-fired SPPP 45 Auto brass on the market.

2.) Some of my 1911's, having been fit up old-school with the barrel tipped up pretty high, make off-center strikes that would be further from the center of an SPP than of an LPP, and that makes me a little uncomfortable from a reliability standpoint.

3.) Should I find myself with a surplus of 45 Auto brass that I want to trade to somebody for something else, I would expect the SPP brass to be harder to trade.

I only buy starline for revolvers at this point. I generally buy once fired for semi auto guns as I rarely get all my pieces back.

jag2 · November 13, 2022, 12:25 PM

Four or five years ago you could have chosen either path with no problem. Today we're still in the get what ever you can find mode. I've saved all the range pickup SPP brass just in case, who knows what the future holds. Right now I'd say buy what ever you can find, nothing wrong with having both.

Schlitz 45 · November 13, 2022, 01:41 PM

Partly depends on what primers you have available. I load for both & just keep ‘em separate, either way works.

Shadow9mm · November 13, 2022, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schlitz 45

Partly depends on what primers you have available. I load for both & just keep ‘em separate, either way works.

I have a good stock of small rifle and large rifle. small and large pistol have been scarce and hard to come by.

FITASC · November 13, 2022, 06:02 PM

I'll take the SP brass because I have 10X the number if small to large and small are easier to find (and y'all can send all of it to me and I'll dispose of it for ya!)

Radny97 · November 13, 2022, 08:13 PM

I love the small primer brass. It’s all I buy.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

akinswi · November 13, 2022, 09:05 PM

Lol I hated running into 45acp small primer brass in my progessive setup. I never thought about sorting them until I ran into one, was mostly blazer brass.

This was about 10 years ago when I had access to indoor range brass, man back then there were buckets of the stuff. I dont find them any more.

I actually dont see much 45acp period

Does anyone know the science or the reason for changing it to SPP from LPP?

Marco Califo · November 13, 2022, 11:24 PM

The SPP 45 ACP is one example of apparently cost savings to ammo manufacturer, at the expense of a stanrdized reloadability. Others:
9mm and some 38xx are made with "stepped" case interior. I don't know if that has showed up in BLAZERS current offerings yet.
Berdan primed. Forget it.
My point is that there is no good reason to mess with reloading the odd variants.

Sevens · November 14, 2022, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Does anyone know the science or the reason for changing it to SPP from LPP?

It's just the simplest reason of ease and streamlining of manufacturing. Most ammo makers sell more 9mm than anything, the next tier (based on volume) is going to be .40, .45, .380, .38 Special. And of those, only the .45 used the different primer -- so why not standardize it to the smaller primer?

If we rolled the clock back 110 years, I will certainly guess that the larger diameter case demanded or benefited from the larger primer. These days, it just isn't necessary. If the .45 ACP wasn't a 120 year old cartridge and it made it's debut right now, it would be a dumb idea to produce it with a large primer.

So it may be really annoying to a lot of handloaders but it makes very good sense.

There's another way that the ultra-annoyed MIGHT consider looking at this situation:

If you call up Starline and buy what you want, you get what you want. And if you buy factory ammo and you look at what you purchase before you throw money at it, you also get what you want.

And if you inspect and sort your brass, you get what you want.

With all these methods there are no hassles.

The hassles that seem to bother some handloaders soooooo much seem to happen when they are scooping up free brass and/or too lazy to sort and inspect.

There has been a lot of teeth gnashing over the what... 15 years we've been now dealing with SP .45 brass, but it's waning a bit.

It still annoys some folks. The only annoyance I have ever found with SP .45 brass is sifting through all the whining about it.

Radny97 · November 14, 2022, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sevens

It's just the simplest reason of ease and streamlining of manufacturing. Most ammo makers sell more 9mm than anything, the next tier (based on volume) is going to be .40, .45, .380, .38 Special. And of those, only the .45 used the different primer -- so why not standardize it to the smaller primer?

If we rolled the clock back 110 years, I will certainly guess that the larger diameter case demanded or benefited from the larger primer. These days, it just isn't necessary. If the .45 ACP wasn't a 120 year old cartridge and it made it's debut right now, it would be a dumb idea to produce it with a large primer.

So it may be really annoying to a lot of handloaders but it makes very good sense.

There's another way that the ultra-annoyed MIGHT consider looking at this situation:

If you call up Starline and buy what you want, you get what you want. And if you buy factory ammo and you look at what you purchase before you throw money at it, you also get what you want.

And if you inspect and sort your brass, you get what you want.

With all these methods there are no hassles.

The hassles that seem to bother some handloaders soooooo much seem to happen when they are scooping up free brass and/or too lazy to sort and inspect.

There has been a lot of teeth gnashing over the what... 15 years we've been now dealing with SP .45 brass, but it's waning a bit.

It still annoys some folks. The only annoyance I have ever found with SP .45 brass is sifting through all the whining about it.

Well said

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Wag · November 15, 2022, 07:02 AM

Small primer ammo works just as well as large primer ammo but the smalls are a pain to have to deal with. I find that I have to sort it all out before I start seating primers.

But after I have a couple hundred, I seat small primers in them and move on. Might as well since I spent the time to sort them out and pile them up.

--Wag--

seanc · November 15, 2022, 11:32 AM

I have both. For a while there, all I had was SPP. Then, I could only find LPP, so I saved the SPP for 9mm/380 and was only shooting 45 for over a year at the range since I had ample LPP. Now I'm heavy on SPP and short on LPP. When I go to the range, I only bring 45 cases of one type. The only sorting I have to do is for any range brass I get (RSO's know to dump any/all 45 brass in my bag as they walk by). Since I need to visually inspect the new range brass anyway, it doesn't really take that much longer to sort them then as well.

Jim Watson · November 15, 2022, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Does anyone know the science or the reason for changing it to SPP from LPP?

Yes.

Oh, you want me to TELL you.

OK.
When the greens got all exercised over lead emissions from lead styphnate primers, the industry tried this and that for lead free primers and ended up with Dinol - DDNP as the sensitive agent. It works but it is more energetic. The first response to that was larger flash holes to vent the primer flame into the cartridge. You can look back and find posts
"OMG, my brass has HUGE flash holes, what can I DO?" The answer was "not much", .45 interior ballistics are not real sensitive to flash hole size.

But then some genius realized "Hey, this stuff is more expensive and hotter too. Let's just put it in small primers. That will save money and keep good powder ignition."

Early Official Recommendations were to not reload .45 Small but anybody who wanted to bother just ignored that.

I think the next step was to just load .45 Small with styphnate primers when lead free was not specified on the order, whatever brass was on hand.

ETA: Federal now has their own lead free formula in the Catalyst primers, thus far seen only in Syntech ammunition. I have not seen any of the .45 and don't know what size it uses.

View Poll Results: What primer size should I get for 45 auto?
Get large primer, its what it was designed for	15	71.43%
Get small primer, keep your primers the same	6	28.57%
Voters: 21. You may not vote on this poll

November 11, 2022, 09:50 AM	#1
Shadow9mm Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2012 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 4,050	45 auto primer size choice, buying brass So i got a 45 again after a long while. I know it was designed with large primer pocket. However there seems to be a fair bit of small primer pocket brass available. None of the cartridges I currently load for use large pistol primers. I have been using small rifle primers for most of my loads for 9mm, 38spl, 357mag, and 223 as that is what i have. Im really leaning towards getting small primer 45 brass so i dont have to source and stock large primers. Should i get small primer 45 brass and keep all my primers the same? Or should i start looking for large primers and get large primer brass? __________________ I don't believe in "range fodder" that is why I reload. Last edited by Shadow9mm; November 11, 2022 at 10:15 AM.

November 11, 2022, 03:23 PM	#4
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,758	I definitely have both. When the market wasn't TOTAL LUNACY, the small primer brass was fantastic for lost brass situations which for me also includes family that needs ammo that may not return the brass. And like you said, it's really easy to find/get small primer .45 brass. However, my preference is always going to be LP .45 brass, and this is mostly because I started collecting my .45 brass in the late 1980's. And it's been a massive benefit in this LUNATIC primer market because I've got lots of LP primers in stock from before the world fell off a cliff and I only use the LP in .45, 10mm and .44 and my volume of 10mm and .44 these days is pretty low. I have started making a bit of .45 Colt but whatever. My situation is different than yours since you have nothing on hand, but diversification is, IMO, always a benefit. The grand old .45 primer size debate mostly affects handloaders who don't separate and inspect their brass. I certainly understand their angst, but I have 0% of that angst, it causes me no issues whatsoever. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

November 11, 2022, 04:57 PM	#5
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 29,027	Its not angst, and not really the need to separate the brass, as I do separate by headstamp commercial cases, anyway, its the need to stop, and change the priming tool JUST for those cases. Nothing else I have that uses that same headsize (and there are lots) uses small primers. I see two distinct possibilities of disaster, the first is not realizing its a small primer case until you try to seat a large primer in it, and the second is having changed the priming punch to small, forgetting to change it back and seating a large primer with it. Neither one yields good results and at while due diligence does prevent either, these days, losing a primer for any reason just brings tears to my eyes..... __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

November 12, 2022, 12:42 PM	#8
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,614	I am saving my SPP 45 brass to cast into paper weights. What is the melting point for Cartridge brass? I think propane torches with a BBQ tank might not do it. __________________ ............

November 11, 2022, 12:29 PM	#3
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,618	I have been loading .45 Small for "lost brass" matches, a couple of people have been bringing me the brass that they would normally scrap. I save the true .45 ACP (large) for occasions when I can recover my empties. But in the OP's position, I would just standardize on the Smalls. Most loaders hate them and will give them away. I have shot a fair number of 9mm and a few .45s with small rifle primers and they all went off in my hammer fired guns. I need to try some in a Glock to let a friend know if he can substitute there, too.

November 12, 2022, 01:03 PM	#9
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,618	If you were closer, I would help you save the cost of fuel, as would Shadow.

November 12, 2022, 06:06 PM	#11
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,614	I am looking for my crucible! I already have 2 kinds of 45 brass, Starline regular and Starline +P which is thicker, to keep separate. Since I bought 500 new of each from Starline, I am not sure where my 45 range brass stands in processing. Right now www.Starline.com has BOTH in stock for immediate shipment at around $120 per 500, with free shipping. I am not a fan of the SPP 45 brass at all. I rate them just a hair above Blazer aluminum and Russian steel cases. I had a few. Then I got a zip lock bag as an unwanted extra in a trade of good brass. IMO they get in the way, and will never be used much. To me it is not worth the time to find them all, pack and ship them. I also do not want them to ever comeback again in range brass. __________________ ............ Last edited by Marco Califo; November 13, 2022 at 07:43 PM. Reason: Typos

November 12, 2022, 06:56 PM	#12
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,125	Standardizing on small primer pockets has three potential drawbacks: 1.) If I go to Starline, where I currently buy all my new 45 Auto brass, they don't make it with small primer pockets. Indeed, I am unaware of anything but pre-fired SPPP 45 Auto brass on the market. 2.) Some of my 1911's, having been fit up old-school with the barrel tipped up pretty high, make off-center strikes that would be further from the center of an SPP than of an LPP, and that makes me a little uncomfortable from a reliability standpoint. 3.) Should I find myself with a surplus of 45 Auto brass that I want to trade to somebody for something else, I would expect the SPP brass to be harder to trade. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

November 13, 2022, 12:25 PM	#14
jag2 Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2009 Location: dallas Posts: 775	Four or five years ago you could have chosen either path with no problem. Today we're still in the get what ever you can find mode. I've saved all the range pickup SPP brass just in case, who knows what the future holds. Right now I'd say buy what ever you can find, nothing wrong with having both.

November 13, 2022, 01:41 PM	#15
Schlitz 45 Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2018 Location: Colorado Posts: 385	Partly depends on what primers you have available. I load for both & just keep ‘em separate, either way works.

November 13, 2022, 06:02 PM	#17
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,470	I'll take the SP brass because I have 10X the number if small to large and small are easier to find (and y'all can send all of it to me and I'll dispose of it for ya!) __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

November 13, 2022, 08:13 PM	#18
Radny97 Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2015 Posts: 1,021	I love the small primer brass. It’s all I buy. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

November 13, 2022, 09:05 PM	#19
akinswi Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2012 Location: Bowling Green, Ky Posts: 715	Lol I hated running into 45acp small primer brass in my progessive setup. I never thought about sorting them until I ran into one, was mostly blazer brass. This was about 10 years ago when I had access to indoor range brass, man back then there were buckets of the stuff. I dont find them any more. I actually dont see much 45acp period Does anyone know the science or the reason for changing it to SPP from LPP?

November 13, 2022, 11:24 PM	#20
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,614	The SPP 45 ACP is one example of apparently cost savings to ammo manufacturer, at the expense of a stanrdized reloadability. Others: 9mm and some 38xx are made with "stepped" case interior. I don't know if that has showed up in BLAZERS current offerings yet. Berdan primed. Forget it. My point is that there is no good reason to mess with reloading the odd variants. __________________ ............ Last edited by Marco Califo; November 14, 2022 at 12:19 PM.

November 15, 2022, 07:02 AM	#23
Wag Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2010 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 989	Small primer ammo works just as well as large primer ammo but the smalls are a pain to have to deal with. I find that I have to sort it all out before I start seating primers. But after I have a couple hundred, I seat small primers in them and move on. Might as well since I spent the time to sort them out and pile them up. --Wag-- __________________ "Great genius will always encounter fierce opposition from mediocre minds." --Albert Einstein.

November 15, 2022, 11:32 AM	#24
seanc Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 1998 Posts: 591	I have both. For a while there, all I had was SPP. Then, I could only find LPP, so I saved the SPP for 9mm/380 and was only shooting 45 for over a year at the range since I had ample LPP. Now I'm heavy on SPP and short on LPP. When I go to the range, I only bring 45 cases of one type. The only sorting I have to do is for any range brass I get (RSO's know to dump any/all 45 brass in my bag as they walk by). Since I need to visually inspect the new range brass anyway, it doesn't really take that much longer to sort them then as well.