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Old November 6, 2013, 06:44 PM   #1
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ATF's 41P and you - A Call to Action

First of, for any Moderator/Administrators/Staff here, I'd like to ask that you'd leave this in General Discussion as that will more than likely receive the most traffic on your Forum. I don't mean to be disrespectful to site policies, simply to raise awareness.

I sincerely thank you for the Opportunity.

The Reason I'm drafting this thread is to notify any one of you if you haven't already heard of a current proposal put forth by the BATFE. This proposal directly impacts many gun owners and future gun owners. They're specifically targeting a type of Gun Owners in regards to National Firearms Act Items (Title II), such as SBR's, SBS's, MG's, Silencer's, AOW's and DD's.

They're targeting you, your families, your businesses and possibly any future gun owner with this measure. They're targeting Legal Entities, if you're not familiar with the NFA Process, it's extensive, but there's a portion of this process that requires Chief of Law Enforcement signature for Individuals. What many individuals have found is that for a genuine number of reasons Legal Entities (Such as trusts/LLCs) have worked well for them and their families, (I know that the idea of having an item that if any of my loved ones other than myself gain access to it constitutes a felony is definitely not in their best interest) to protect them from liability as far as being able to safely have these items in their household, but manage their ownership responsibly by sharing ownership of it with their families/coworkers/colleagues through Trusts and LLCs.

This signature used to only be required for an individual. If this measure goes through every single person in a trust or company will be required to get Chief of Law Enforcement signature, fingerprinting and photographing for every, single, item.

As recently as 2012 the BATFE was considering removing it ( but after being targeted by Executive Actions recently proposed it's now being sought out to be expanded to every individual.

I've spent a lot of time reflecting on what to say and how to say it. I've spent time with different people in the Industry, calling the NRA-ILA, talking with their Federal Affairs Branch. Calling the American Silencer Association, seeking the best way to go forward. Getting in touch with representatives from companies. Namely Kel Whelan, part owner of Gemtech and I asked him, candidly and bluntly.

What should we do?

The answer was simple. Comment, that's what the BATFE is soliciting, make your voices heard. Giving money to the NRA, ASA, or whatever advocacy group would be secondary to Commenting. To spending time, getting creative and making an impact. Reading the regulation here,!documen...2013-0001-0001.

I've drafted a 503-word form comment myself to share with you, that's logical and concise. I would suggest some modifications and posting it as your own, otherwise it may be overlooked by the ATF as an already existing comment.


I am writing you to notify you that I strongly disagree with the proposals put forth in September of 2013, regarding expanding the Chief of Law Enforcement/Sheriff Signature on each individual in a legal entity (Trust/LLC).

Currently the BATFE tests during an individual transfer for the following per the release of BATFE statement at,!documen...2013-0001-0001

- National Crime Information Center
- TECS (Treasury Enforcement Communication System)
- National Law Enforcement Telecommunications System
- Interstate Identification Index
- National Instant Criminal Background Check System

They will also be required to submit fingerprints, CLEO Certificate and passport size photo taken within the last year.

I feel that these are far more than sufficient for an individual. That the requirements for Law Enforcement Certification, Fingerprints and Pictures should be removed. I propose the removal of the Chief of Law Enforcement Certificate as Chief’s of Law Enforcement aren’t required or instructed to perform any back ground checks.

Also, according to the document above, the BATFE certifies themselves the legality of the item in the locale of the individual or legal entity requesting access. This also nullifies reasoning for a Chief of Law Enforcement Signature.

The BATFE explains the lineage and logic/reasoning behind the intent of a Chief of Law Enforcement signature as being necessary because it pre-dated federal databases, federal records and state databases. Acknowledging the extremely extensive nature of the current checks.

There is an obvious issue with this as Law Enforcement Officials receive no funding, training or directive on how to handle or certify these documents. Which is highlighted by the ignorance of Law Enforcement Officials involving instances (cited by the ATF in the proposal above) asking will they be held liable for items they approve.

The BATFE fails to mention the alternative for signatures of approval in this regulation such as Local Prosecutors, District Attorneys, Local Judges, State Judges or District Judges. These individuals would not have access to State Databases stated, which the ATF cites as the reasoning for expanding Chief of Law Enforcement Certification in the NPRM.

The BATFE also vastly underestimates the time required to receive Chief of Law Enforcement signature as 1 and a half hours for interview and an hour for fingerprinting. The BATFE also minimizes the example in their citation as the average legal entity (Trust or LLC) as only having 2 trustees or employees.

The average American household has 3 members (according to ) not counting relatives such as uncles, aunts, grand parents, grandchildren, or cousins and the average employer firm has at least 15 paid employees (according to as of 2008). The numbers put forth by the BATFE are intellectually dishonest.

The BATFE also fails in this proposal to cite any vehicle for the turnover of employees that Legal Entities such as businesses experience.

I have absolute confidence in the BATFE to remove the requirements for Law Enforcement Certification, Fingerprinting and Photographing. While still being able to conduct satisfactory amounts of checks for individuals in legal entities.

Thank you,

(Your name here)
Ladies and Gentlemen, we have an opportunity to make our voices heard. We have an opportunity to have an impact.

Not only will well-informed comments carry weight, but so will numbers of comments. History is at your fingertips, and your time is worthwhile spent here! December 9th, 2013 they will close the docket for comments.

I challenge everyone here to comment or post that they have commented to encourage each other to press on and keep this issue heard!

I've contacted my Sheriff, the county over's Sheriff, All of the State Representatives in my State, Both Senators, and the Governor, and now I'm here for you. I'd suggest you to contact your Local Law Enforcement, your representatives, your senators, your Governor, your families and make an impact!

I also plan on contacting manufacturers and expressing to them your concern and advocating their involvement.

Do not sit by idle for one more second, when you have the opportunity to have an impact on the course of history. Do not fall silent at this time while history passes you by. If you don't like my comment draft or ideas, draft your own.

But Brothers! Be bold and make your voices heard!

God Bless,

BWT3 is offline  
Old November 8, 2013, 09:59 AM   #2
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Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 10,958
You're talking about BATFE's proposal to require those who set up Trusts, LLC's etc. for NFA purposes to obtain a CLEO sign-off, correct?

I think there's another thread on this and basically we are in a "wait-and-see" holding pattern, until the comment period is over. With regard to BATFE rule-making, they could care less what you, I, or any gun-owner wants. The time to write letters, vote and campaign was 2 years ago.

My opinion? The CLEO sign-off is a stupid requirement. The law is just as absurd in permitting folks to set up an LLC or Trust to avoid getting the ridiculous CLEO sign-off. This is a true "loop-hole" that BATFE is trying to close - perhaps a good loophole, but a loophole nonetheless. We all know what BATFE should do - I don't even need to state it here. But, BATFE won't do anything to help any of us; not unless and until we get elected representatives that will lean on BATFE with all of their political might.
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Old November 8, 2013, 10:16 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by BWT3
The Reason I'm drafting this thread is to notify any one of you if you haven't already heard of a current proposal put forth by the BATFE.
We've had an active thread here for several months regarding this same subject. There's no need for another thread on the exact same subject.
0331: "Accuracy by volume."
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Old November 8, 2013, 11:58 AM   #4
Brian Pfleuger
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We've had an active thread here for several months
Indeed, we do.
Nobody plans to screw up their lives...
...they just don't plan not to.
-Andy Stanley
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