45 ACP, Glock and Lead Bullets

[Marco Califo]

Thanks for that UN. I have repeated my cleaning process daily, and am still getting dark gray smears. I will order a bronze brush and cleaner supplies. It is easy enough for me to only use plated and jacketed. I have not fired anything through that barrel, because I am still picking up what I think is lead. This experience has convinced me that I do not want to shoot lead bullets in polygonal bores.

[reynolds357]

Originally Posted by Marco Califo

I have a 45 ACP Glock 30. I have Jacketed, and Plated Bullets, but also have 500 very hard cast (Brinnel 18 - 22) in 185 and 200 grains.
Glocks come with polygonal bores, and they warn against using Lead bullets, but many people do, with no issues with leading. I have seen other reports of leading problems developing before emptying one magazine.
I am using BE-86 and CFEPistol, at warmish loads (midway between start & max). They should be moving around 1100 fps.
So, am I heading for trouble?
I have been thinking that hard cast bullets are less likely to leave lead in the barrel. Yes, I know barrels are made with normal rifling. That is not my question. My question is about leading in Glock factory barrels.

This is the deal with a Glock. Most people run cast with no problems whatsoever. Some people for some reason run cast and ruin the barrel. Why? I really don't know. Nothing about their bullet or load was indicative of what should have been a problem. My guess is lube. I have run multiple thousand cast bullets through multiple Glocks with no problem. The only problem I have personally had with a Glock barrel was a Gen 2 mod 23. Shooting jacketed bullets, in less than 5k rounds, it turned into a smooth bore. It was a dept owned pistol and Glock warrantied it. It had to be bad steel because none of the other g23 our dept owned did that. Had I shot cast in it Iwould have most definitely blamed it on cast.

[akinswi]

Except its extremely difficult to wear out any barrel using any type of cast lead, you would literally have too shoot hundreds of thousands of rounds especially a pistol barrel.

Reynolds,

That’s awesome they warranty the barrel? was it a no nonsense or did they ask you questions?

[Jim Watson]

Yup. A friend wore out two PPC .38 barrels with a mere 150,000 rounds of wadcutters each.
They weren't even completely worn out, still shooting pretty well with about 1/3 the length of rifling eroded away and a bulge from a stuck bullet in one of them.

[Unclenick]

Yes, lead won't wear a barrel out. The issue with polygons is that some individuals get fouling buildup thick enough to raise pressure unacceptably or else start to see keyholing or both. Why this is more of a potential issue with polygons than with conventional rifling, I don't know. Leading tends to occur at the inside corners of conventional rifling lands due to gas bypass there, and perhaps that happens over a wider space with the polygon. If so, it might be that going to a bullet 0.001" bigger than cast bullets are usually sized, or using gas checks would prevent it. I don't know.

[Marco Califo]

"Reynolds,
That’s awesome they warranty the barrel? was it a no nonsense or did they ask you questions?"
Different categories of Glock shooters will get different levels of warranty service. We are talking about service pistols owned by a LE department, likely under a contract. This is Glock's core market (along with global militaries, too). These end users also qualify regularly, so the pistols get shot a lot. These large institutions likely receive warranty service promptly without red-tape. I have been told at least some, and probably many, LE departments have Glock Certified Armorers among their officers and/or staff, specifically supporting department pistols. Compare that to Joe Tin Can Shooter, who would have to answer questions about ammo used, who has worked under the hood, etc., and could wait 2 months for a slide refinish and have to buy his own barrel.

[reynolds357]

Originally Posted by akinswi

Except its extremely difficult to wear out any barrel using any type of cast lead, you would literally have too shoot hundreds of thousands of rounds especially a pistol barrel.

Reynolds,

That’s awesome they warranty the barrel? was it a no nonsense or did they ask you questions?

They didn't ask any questions. They did tell me that "the problem I was describing was impossible." They gave Return authorization and it was back in about a week. They even warrantied the G23 that one of our officers tore the frame in half on. She had it under her seat and the rail and seat cut it in half. You can run over it with a M1 tank, but Terry can tear it in half with her electric seat. Go figure.
At that time, we did not have an armorer.

[44 AMP]

Lead, being softer than steel won't wear out a steel barrel. Hot powder gas under a few thousand psi pressure, will, given enough time.

Don't know what they would say today, but I do recall something I once read, written by an armory worker back in the 30s, that said they considered a revolver barrel to be good for 30-40,000 rounds before it was worn out from shooting lead bullets.

[Marco Califo]

The complication with Glocks is two-fold:
1. Glocks have polygonal rifling. Five or Six flat surfaces spiraling. NOT the usual lands and grooves. The polygonal rifling can have different leading results between polygonal or after-market land and groove barrels which are sold as "drop-in" parts.
2. The polygonal barrel can experience dramatically rapid barrel leading, as in less than one magazine.
The conventional wisdom is to use a land and groove barrel if you want to shoot lead.

[GeauxTide]

My favorite load for an ACP is 7.0gr of Unique under a 200 SWC. At 1000fps, I get very little leading and one hole accuracy. Since your warranty is void, get a standard rifled barrel. I got one for my 34 and it's great with 125 SWC.

[Unclenick]

If you have a copy of Ed McGivern's book, Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting, he's got before and after groups from a K22 at 200,000 rounds that he then sent for factory rebuilding, including rebarreling. The new barrel's group is no better than the old one's. Light 45 softball target loads have never done anything I can discern to either throat or bore. The target guns shoot loose and need reworking after a time, but actual bore wear isn't something I've never noticed in them.

[joelaw99]

I put lead reloads (mine) 9mm about 1050 fps thru a gen 1 glock 17 over a summer with nothing more than a little streaking that was easily removed.

[Nevmavrick]

I use a Tanfoglio which also uses parabolic rifling.
I use, only, lead(cast) bullets. I've used over 12k through mine.
If you keep the diameter .002-.003 larger than the bore, you won't have any trouble with leading.
I don't use pure-lead bullets, but you don't really need very-hard, ie 18-20 Brinell, bullets either.
I used Wheelweight alloy bullets when I could find them, but now that most W-Ws are at least partly zinc, those can be used as they are harder. You'll have to learn to cast partly-zinc bullets though.
Glock just wanted it's customers to not use handloads, and there are no factory lead bullets.
Have fun, Gene

[Unclenick]

I've read that Tafaglio uses semi-polygonal rifling, which was described as conventional rifling with the edges of the lands tapered and blended into the grooves. But most of their handguns use "traditional" rifling, and I've not had a chance to look at one of the semi-polygonal bores.

[Marco Califo]

The Lone Wolf 45 ACP barrels for Glocks have been out of stock for over 6 months now. Using the recommended bore solvents got the lead out of my Glock barrel.

[Nevmavrick]

Tanfoglio makes two forms of rifling as I understand it.
My Limited-model Target (competition) handgun, which is .40 S&W-chambered, has a big enough bore that I should be able to see the rifling, and I also have a Lyman borescope. I've just never seen anything that could appear to have an edge.
I've never looked down a Glock barrel, though.
The main part of the story is that done correctly, cast bullets are no problem.
Glock just wants noone to use handloads in their guns. It's just too much trouble to
I agree with them. They make a fine, safe handgun and back it up! fight a lawsuit caused by someone who doesn't know what they're doing, ORRRR, makes a mistake, and wants Glock to pay for it.
I only use handloads, but I understand that I void the warrantee.
Have fun
Gene

[Unclenick]

The problem is not knowing for certain whose failure to have leading problems is random or if it is actually being controlled by their bullet choices. All the reported problems seem to appear randomly, and that means someone getting no trouble can be as anecdotal a case as someone reporting constant problems. What is needed is to find some guns that have exhibited the leading issue and then start shooting the oversized bullets in them to see if that stops the problem. Otherwise, the bullet size is just being assumed to be the cure based on one gun's behavior, and that's not rigorous enough evidence for a blanket prescription, IMHO. Also, how frequently the guns in the test are being cleaned needs to be standardized for comparisons.

[Nevmavrick]

I absolutely agree with you. The more tested information we have, the better decisions we make.
my problem comes when some "Don't ask how I know" typist tells about a Glock, or some other brand, that had such a buildup that they finally got a "Kaboom!"
If a bit more time is spent, and I sure don't mean YOU, but others that are thinking of starting to use cast, on "Cast Boolits" forums, I am pretty sure some of that information may be available.
Have fun,
Gene