long letter to gun manufacturers

subway · April 9, 2006, 07:28 PM

Its long, but there’s a big payoff for you at the end

Choices…..

I’ve quickly gone from owning zero firearms to having one in my possession, one on order, and thinking hard about a third. While many of you will shake your head, I’m really dead set on stopping at three, if for no other reason, I’m living in so-called ‘corporate housing’ (think hotel room) and don’t even have a place for the existing rifle, the two new ones are either going in the bathtub or in the bed. So lets assume that I can sensibly stop and hold with three guns.

Number one is a Rem 700 in .30-06; the great ‘all-around’ rifle in the ‘do-anything’ cartridge. It was a great choice as a first rifle and when I consider what its capable of, versus what I could sell it for, I’ll keep it forever.

But I’ve gotten interested in target shooting; not necessarily formal competition, but I do like going to the range every week and shooting for a couple of hours. And I can’t think of any good reason to withstand 40 or 50 solid, hard hitting body blows every Friday, so I decided to get a rifle more suitable for target range shooting. As a lefty, my options were very limited; there are only a couple of dozen different models of left handed rifles available commercially, and probably 90% of them are designed as ‘hunting’ rifles, very similar to my Rem 700. (wood stock, long skinny barrel, almost no choice in caliber, etc.)

After driving the old-timers on the forums crazy by asking for a rifle that doesn’t seem to exist, I finally broke down and ordered a custom rifle. New left handed (Zastava) Mauser action, McMillan A2 stock, ER Shaw heavy contour barrel, etc in .243win caliber. Its not a serious ‘benchrest’ rifle for competition, but it will be a helluva lot more comfortable midway through a long afternoon at the range, and it should be more consistent than my factory stock Rem 700. (and yes, its gonna look seriously cool….). I haven’t decided about glass yet, but I’ve got at least two more months before the rifle’s delivery to figure that out.

So I”ll now have the ‘perfect’ gun for my weekly range trips; why would I be thinking about one more? Well, neither the Rem 700 or the new ‘range’ rifle would be much good if, god help us, the sh#t ever does hit the fan. A full four feet long, four shot capacity, slow follow-up, no external magazine to speed reload and the ability to drill through ten or twelve interior walls does not make for a great ‘home defense’ weapon.

I’m thinking about a small, inexpensive but reliable carbine. A few reasons for this choice;
· it avoids me having to go through ‘handgun hell’
· I don’t much like handguns anyway
· If it comes down to 1 on 1, I want a rifle not a handgun
· If I get a pistol caliber carbine, I can shoot at the indoor ranges on days when the outdoor range is closed due to rain (most of the past three months!)

So, after a few weeks of serious research, I started shopping around, and I got beat down at every turn. Each time I selected the ‘best possible gun for the job’ it turned out to be unavailable in California. The Kel-tec, the Hi-Point, even the overpriced Beretta, none of them are legal in California. To find a decent, legal carbine for use in CA, I’m going to have to spend $700 and at that point I might as well just spend a little more and get an AR (a ‘Californicated’ model). But the whole beauty of the original idea (a pistol caliber carbine) was that it was both practical and dirt cheap! Like two hundred and something dollars cheap! It appears that the only way I can hit that budget in a CA legal gun would be to buy the silly little Henry Survival Rifle. But then I’d have to request that the bad guy stand perfectly still so that I could shoot him either in the eye or directly into the ear-hole, as that’s the only way I can be sure the little .22lr is going to stop anyone.

Seriously, my only practical option appears to be the Ruger PC9, at something like $600. Personally, if I was a gun manufacturer, I’d offer something like the Kel-tec sub 2000 or the Hi-Point carbine, only without the pistol grip. Comparing the Kel-tec Sub 2000 with its SU-16 big brother, I prefer the ‘legal’ grip anway. And companies that legalize their carbines by welding the magazine in place are just plain loony. Which are more important to you; fast change magazines or a vertical grip!?! Keep the mags, lose the grip and give CA residents that sub $300 carbine and you’ll sell millions (literally, MILLIONS) Anybody listening?

K-Man · April 9, 2006, 09:45 PM

Have you considered the Marlin 1894 models? They're pistol-caliber and are a great tack driver. Folks involved with the Single Action Shooting Society (SASS) often buy them. The 1894C model is the least expensive, and may be something that would work for you.

FirstFreedom · April 10, 2006, 03:59 PM

Quote:

The Kel-tec, the Hi-Point, even the overpriced Beretta, none of them are legal in California.

Not sure if I understand the premise of your rant. The Kel-Tec SU-16 CA most certainly is legal in Calif, correct? And it's *far* superior as a defensive carbine than anything in a pistol caliber, Kel-Tec or otherwise. What could be wrong with that choice (SU 16 CA), given your criteria?

I don't suppose the M1 carbine is legal there, is it?

Edit, OK-dokey, you want pistol-caliber so you can shoot at the indoor range which bans regular centerfires...got it. In that case, I think you have a good point - Ruger being the only semi-auto option. However, what about MY personal pistol-caliber carbine - I don't suppose this is legal in Calif either, is it:

Glock lower with Mech-Tech upper (mine is in 10mm auto).

??? If that's off-limits, too, then you're right, Kel-Tec and others oughtta come out with a Calif-special no-pistol grip carbine.

Fal 4 Me · April 10, 2006, 09:32 PM

I know it's not what your asking about, but why havn't you considered a .22lr? You can get them for relatively cheap, ammo is the cheapest of any caliber and you can shoot them at indoor and outdoor ranges. Plus there is no bette rifle to learn the basics on. Just some food for thought.

April 9, 2006, 07:28 PM	#1
subway Junior Member Join Date: March 28, 2006 Posts: 12	long letter to gun manufacturers Its long, but there’s a big payoff for you at the end Choices….. I’ve quickly gone from owning zero firearms to having one in my possession, one on order, and thinking hard about a third. While many of you will shake your head, I’m really dead set on stopping at three, if for no other reason, I’m living in so-called ‘corporate housing’ (think hotel room) and don’t even have a place for the existing rifle, the two new ones are either going in the bathtub or in the bed. So lets assume that I can sensibly stop and hold with three guns. Number one is a Rem 700 in .30-06; the great ‘all-around’ rifle in the ‘do-anything’ cartridge. It was a great choice as a first rifle and when I consider what its capable of, versus what I could sell it for, I’ll keep it forever. But I’ve gotten interested in target shooting; not necessarily formal competition, but I do like going to the range every week and shooting for a couple of hours. And I can’t think of any good reason to withstand 40 or 50 solid, hard hitting body blows every Friday, so I decided to get a rifle more suitable for target range shooting. As a lefty, my options were very limited; there are only a couple of dozen different models of left handed rifles available commercially, and probably 90% of them are designed as ‘hunting’ rifles, very similar to my Rem 700. (wood stock, long skinny barrel, almost no choice in caliber, etc.) After driving the old-timers on the forums crazy by asking for a rifle that doesn’t seem to exist, I finally broke down and ordered a custom rifle. New left handed (Zastava) Mauser action, McMillan A2 stock, ER Shaw heavy contour barrel, etc in .243win caliber. Its not a serious ‘benchrest’ rifle for competition, but it will be a helluva lot more comfortable midway through a long afternoon at the range, and it should be more consistent than my factory stock Rem 700. (and yes, its gonna look seriously cool….). I haven’t decided about glass yet, but I’ve got at least two more months before the rifle’s delivery to figure that out. So I”ll now have the ‘perfect’ gun for my weekly range trips; why would I be thinking about one more? Well, neither the Rem 700 or the new ‘range’ rifle would be much good if, god help us, the sh#t ever does hit the fan. A full four feet long, four shot capacity, slow follow-up, no external magazine to speed reload and the ability to drill through ten or twelve interior walls does not make for a great ‘home defense’ weapon. I’m thinking about a small, inexpensive but reliable carbine. A few reasons for this choice; · it avoids me having to go through ‘handgun hell’ · I don’t much like handguns anyway · If it comes down to 1 on 1, I want a rifle not a handgun · If I get a pistol caliber carbine, I can shoot at the indoor ranges on days when the outdoor range is closed due to rain (most of the past three months!) So, after a few weeks of serious research, I started shopping around, and I got beat down at every turn. Each time I selected the ‘best possible gun for the job’ it turned out to be unavailable in California. The Kel-tec, the Hi-Point, even the overpriced Beretta, none of them are legal in California. To find a decent, legal carbine for use in CA, I’m going to have to spend $700 and at that point I might as well just spend a little more and get an AR (a ‘Californicated’ model). But the whole beauty of the original idea (a pistol caliber carbine) was that it was both practical and dirt cheap! Like two hundred and something dollars cheap! It appears that the only way I can hit that budget in a CA legal gun would be to buy the silly little Henry Survival Rifle. But then I’d have to request that the bad guy stand perfectly still so that I could shoot him either in the eye or directly into the ear-hole, as that’s the only way I can be sure the little .22lr is going to stop anyone. Seriously, my only practical option appears to be the Ruger PC9, at something like $600. Personally, if I was a gun manufacturer, I’d offer something like the Kel-tec sub 2000 or the Hi-Point carbine, only without the pistol grip. Comparing the Kel-tec Sub 2000 with its SU-16 big brother, I prefer the ‘legal’ grip anway. And companies that legalize their carbines by welding the magazine in place are just plain loony. Which are more important to you; fast change magazines or a vertical grip!?! Keep the mags, lose the grip and give CA residents that sub $300 carbine and you’ll sell millions (literally, MILLIONS) Anybody listening?

April 9, 2006, 09:45 PM	#2
K-Man Member Join Date: June 18, 2005 Posts: 60	Have you considered the Marlin 1894 models? They're pistol-caliber and are a great tack driver. Folks involved with the Single Action Shooting Society (SASS) often buy them. The 1894C model is the least expensive, and may be something that would work for you. __________________ www.kdholsters.com U.S. Navy (Retired) May we always have the freedom to pursue our dreams.

April 10, 2006, 09:32 PM	#4
Fal 4 Me Senior Member Join Date: January 28, 2006 Location: WI Posts: 236	I know it's not what your asking about, but why havn't you considered a .22lr? You can get them for relatively cheap, ammo is the cheapest of any caliber and you can shoot them at indoor and outdoor ranges. Plus there is no bette rifle to learn the basics on. Just some food for thought.