KABOOM Question

[Ike666]

On this site we frequently read about the dangers of excess pressures and the possibility of a KABOOM accident. It does tend to make one attentive when reloading.

The other evening I got to spend a little time with Hatcher's Notebook, and in particular was reading about this problem. Hatcher stated in several places that despite the nature of destructive accidents he had never known of one to result in a serious injury (as long as the shooter was wearing eye-protection).

This struck me as, well, unusual.

I'm curious about people's first-hand experiences with destructive accidents that are directly attributable to ammunition (as opposed to a barrel obstruction for example).

[Mike Irwin]

Mentioned this in the thread about shotgun powders...

"Kid in my high school decided to make some super special dove loads for his double barrel.

First shot blew the barrel out and a chunk of it removed a very large piece of muscle and bone from his forearm."

[Brian Pfleuger]

Interesting..... it may depend on how one defines "serious" injury.

I've never seen a kB first hand but there have been plenty reported here on TFL. I don't recall any directly involving TFL members that resulted in "major", long-term type injury. Some looked fairly "serious" to me though.

[Unclenick]

One of the moderators on shootersforum.com lost his left hand last year when a shotgun blew up. Old loads he'd lost the records on, IIRC. Sheriff still had the parts, last I heard, so we're still not clear what caused it.

Interesting that shotguns have been the guns in all these.

[hogcowboy]

I have heard kabooms on the trap range that didn't cause a problem for the shooter. I always thought that was due to the brand of shotgun though. Some guns being able to take it while others blowing up.

[Sevens]

A few months ago on this forum someone brought up the idea that while we HEAR about KB's all the time on the 'net and through "passed down legend" and we work hard at our own bench with the fear/possibility of a KB in mind -- they really just aren't all that common.

I've been handloading since 1988 and I've probably concocted and pulled the trigger on somewhere just south of 50,000 of my own handloads (my records weren't nearly as detailed more than 5 years back) and the WORST thing I've ever done was to stick a bullet in a revolver bore with too light of a charge... and even that wasn't a missed step, just a load that was way too light to begin with and one that just happened to stick in the bore. The whole box of 50 rounds had the same charge and any one of them could have stuck.

And I did not follow it with another shot, either.

I think the possibility of a KB is something that we should all keep in the forefront but the reality of them are, IMO, not near as common as some may think and not ANYWHERE in the hemisphere of as common as the typical non-handloading Fudd that dismisses handloading and "your brother-in-law's reloads" thinks has ever happened.

[zippy13]

I have heard kabooms on the trap range that didn't cause a problem for the shooter.

Might just be some old boy shooting boomer* loads with a Cutts compensator or ported barrel.

*boomer: Very hot target loads used in long range (beyond 27-yards) trap shooting.

[roberto mervicini]

I was 12 yrs old when I purchase my first shotgun, one used old .12 ga, side by side external hammer, greener cross bolt lock and damascus barrel.
At the time I did know better, and learn to reload by asking older friends.
The only powder available in our village was Cordite, so cordite it was, the measure was a brass scoop bottom screwing in with some graduation the same scoop was used for the pellets, I tooke one factory shell that I cut open to see how much powder and pellets fit on my measure, some time I used a bore and when not available used news paper.
For couple of years everything work fine, till one evening shooting bats, had no money for clay... the right barrel blow up, I was extremely lucky, not a scratch... only few small black spots of powder on my right check.
The gun did not open it bend a little but the cross bolt held it close, a piece of barrel 3/4" by 6" long from the breech till about couple of inches from the tumb of my right hand ( I am lefty ) was gone.
After that I bought a more modern gun no damascus barrel , and factory shell... I did not resume reloading till later on life and rifle and handgun only, also I learn the lesson and when reloading follow all instructions of manuals and proceed with caution...
_______
roberto

[wogpotter]

One AK dustcover embedded in the forehead of the shooter. (Balloon case head ruptured at feed ramp gap & blew cover away from front of reciever.)

One thumb shredded so badly it needed amputation. (8mm Mauser round(s) fired in 7mm Mauser rifle).

One left eye lost. (Overloaded case blew out of blowback pistol. Pistol saved right eye)

Not that these happened to me, I was just there.

[madmo44mag]

I've blown up 2 S&W 29's
Split cyl and broke top strap.
No injury's other than a sore hand.

After the second time I no longer shoot loads developed for Ruger's in S&W revolvers.

Figured I add - I own several Ruger's both Red Hawks and Black Hawks and both S&W failures were with rounds that where not even top end for the Ruger's but in the middle.
It just proved to me that S&W makes a great gun just not as strong or rugged as the Ruger.

I have had many split cases over the years but few of those were caused by excessive pressure. Usually it was a simple brass fatigue issue.

[Farmland]

I have been reloading since 1994. When I was shooting competitively for most of those years I never had a problem. Not so much as even a squib. I don't know how may thousands of reloads I did each year.

Well in 2009 that once mistake happened. Oh yes it was 100% reloader error. I had bought a new electronic scale. I made the mistake of setting the scale measurement readings.

I put just a little to much powder in to my 40S&W loads. I had reloaded 50 of them. The first one resulted in a Kaboom. If you never had one you know your first time. First there is a loud report that is not normal, next you may feel something and have some excess smoke.

I was lucky the overcharged round sent my extractor flying and knocked the trigger assembly out of place. I was shooting a 40 Beretta model 96. I don't know if the open design of the slide helped or not but there was no major damage to the gun or me.

The case was stuck in the barrel minus the back part of the case with the primer. I had slight powder dust on my right hand. The end of the case flew back over the top of my head.

After a full check of the gun the trigger assembly was just out of place and was an easy fix. The extractor was broken and needed replace.

I found the mistake when I pulled the bullets and remeasured the powder charge.

I consider myself a safe reloader and a very lucky one too. I now weigh the powder charge on two scales just to make sure it is right.

This is a great lesson in why you do not sell or give reloads to friends.

[Scorch]

While you hear about kabooms all the time, they happen rarely. There were several in the past 5 or so years that resulted in death, but they are so rare as to be aberrations, usually the person (notice I did not say victim) is "merely" maimed or slightly injured. This speaks to the strength and resilience of modern firearms.

One thumb shredded so badly it needed amputation. (8mm Mauser round(s) fired in 7mm Mauser rifle).

Not that I doubt that was the explanation offered, but that is impossible. 8X57mm will not chamber in a rifle chambered for 7X57mm, the shoulder is .067" farther forward (to preclude exactly this issue), and a 7X57mm rifle will not go into battery with a 8X57mm cartridge in it.

Similarly, there was a kaboom a few years ago where the shooter said he accidentally loaded a 30-06 into his rifle chambered for 270 Win. You can't do it without really working at it! The neck on a loaded 30-06 is .030" larger than the max neck dimension in a 270 chamber.

[Unclenick]

I think Hatcher said four of the low number Springfield blow-ups he investigated were the result of 8×57 rounds picked up and fired in them, but it's unusual. You'd think the 8 mm neck wouldn't fit, but, going by SAAMI specs, if you have a maximum '06 chamber and a minimum 8×57 neck, they will. Worse might be a slight jam fit of the 0.135" of overlap into the '06. That would sure raise pressure.

You also occasionally hear of a .308 accidentally chambered in a .270 and fired and the gun somehow actually survives. "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio. . ."

[Clark]

madmo44mag
6
I've blown up 2 S&W 29's
Split cyl and broke top strap.
No injury's other than a sore hand.

After the second time I no longer shoot loads developed for Ruger's in S&W revolvers.

As primary failures:
I have split an RG cylinder, 3 Colt cylinders, and 2 CZ52 chambers.
I have split the muzzle on a 44 mag rifle, a 410 shotgun, and a 12 ga shotgun.
I have damaged the bolt on 3 rifles.
I just bulged a Beretta 380 chamber.

As secondary failures to gun parts [from gas cutting when brass failed], I have lost count.

I have never been hurt.

The former gun writer that termed the phrase "kaboom" about Glocks has a quote from me on his web site.... I measured the case support of a pistol and compared it to the web thickness of the case head.

What does it all mean?
a) If is very important to distinguish gun failures from brass failures.
b) In strong firearms, a handloader can work up to pressure signs in the brass.
c) In guns that are not stronger than the brass, he should stick with book loads.

What does THAT mean?
Everything is simple, once you know the answer, and load books are not going to give the answers as to which guns are stronger than the brass, just recipes and weasel words.

[roberto mervicini]

I also witness a .38 that blow up part of the cilinder and the top strap, long time a go at our outidoor range on a brutal cold winter day, the fellow was next to me when it happen, the bang was very loud and different, the guy realize of the happening only when he look at is revolver... no top strap and the chamber of the cylinder bosted open, he had only a small cut on the side of the upper lip.!
He was shooting reloads that a frend of his made.
_______
roberto

[Robert Palermo]

Bear in mind that Hatcher was dealing with military grade rifles and was attesting to the nature of those in particular when the rifles blew up.
I would not extend such thinking to ALL firearms. Too many variables in that.

[wogpotter]

Not that I doubt that was the explanation offered, but that is impossible. 8X57mm will not chamber in a rifle chambered for 7X57mm, the shoulder is .067" farther forward (to preclude exactly this issue), and a 7X57mm rifle will not go into battery with a 8X57mm cartridge in it.

I suggest you contact the Nassau County rifle & pistol range in Hempstead New York & tell them that.
================
Nassau County Rifle and Pistol Range at Mitchel Athletic Complex
Uniondale, Charles Lindbergh Boulevard
516-572-0420
Hours (fall - spring): Monday - Friday 9 a.m. – 10 p.m.; Saturday - Sunday, 9 a.m. – 8 p.m. Last booking is one hour prior to closing.
Summer Hours (July - August): Monday - Friday, 9 a.m. - 3 p.m. (closed Saturday - Sunday).
Last booking is one hour prior to closing.
On-site staff: Yes

===================

The destroyed rifle was a Mauser with a bore measuring 7mm, I know because I measured it when helping to figure out what had happened, & the box of rounds were marked as 8mm Mauser. I didn't hear about it as a second person tale or tell the story second hand, I was there when it happened & was holding a ball of paper towels on what was left of the shooter's hand while the RO used the magnifier of my Swiss army knife to check the remnants for markings. I did not say "7X57", or "8X57", the exact chambering is unknown as the bolt was permanently fixed into the receiver which was severely damaged. Perhaps in you rush to be an expert you failed to actually read what I wrote?

The rounds were marked as "8MM Mauser" & the bore of the rifle which had "Mauser" stamped into the metal had a muzzle measuring 7mm.

Respectfully I don't know if there is some theory that says it can't be done but I assure you in this case it was.

[Ozzieman]

There not common but they do happen.
I was hit by the T handle of an AR15 that blew up. Man standing on the next position the 2nd or 3rd round left him with the pistol grip in one hand and the forgrip in the other and nothing in between. His parts and his ammo were taken by the range officer and they found that he had loaded pistol powder in a 223.
Broke my nose and glasses.
Less than a year later he lost his range privilege when he blew up a Ruger Super Blackhawk.
I never did hear what he did but he is not allowed on that range again.
Blow up’s do not happen often and we are all lucky that they are rare. But I also find that those rare occasions that they do happen it tends to be the same people.
When I read “And I blew up 2 29’s with Ruger loads”. Who is at fault here?
Certainly not the gun.

[Clark]

Ozzieman
Broke my nose and glasses.
Less than a year later he lost his range privilege when he blew up a Ruger Super Blackhawk.

At the range where I am a member, there is a sign that says only safe loads can be fired.

I never overload anything there, but I often do work ups to the point of short brass life in strong rifles.

No one there knows that my primer pockets were getting .001" bigger and my primers were too easy to insert, but me.

[rogn]

Mr. Wogp, please settle and watch specifics. 7(mm) Mauser and 8(mm) Mauser are identified as 7 X 57 and 8 X 57 Mauser. I dont think anyone was trying to be superior at that point. A simpler, noninflamatory reply would have been indicated. Still it sounds as though this would have been easily avoided . Sympathy to the victim.

[wogpotter]

So what would you accurately call a rifle made by Mauser that has a 7mm dia barrel bore?
An 8mm Lebel, a 9mm Luger?
Again to over clarify this was a Mauser manufactured rifle with a 7mm bore diameter & I described it as such.
What alternative would you suggest?

[Unclenick]

Seems to me this is just a terminology debate. When one says 7 mm and Mauser in the same sentence 7×57 is strongly implied or even assumed, but the gun could actually have been chambered in 7×64 Brenneke for all we know at this point.

[Jimmy10mm]

About ten years ago I was loading 45LC for a Colt SAA New Frontier revolver. I was doing mild loads using Unique for pleasurable shooting at my local range. I was going along shooting my reloads when the recoil on one round was severe. Way more than the previous rounds.

I was using an Ohaus manual scale along with a Belding & Mull powder measure. Weighing every tenth charge. I don't know if I double charged the case but it is likely since with the old B&M it is a volume measure so I assume it must have been a double charge. Thank God I was loading moderately to begin with. Had they been full house loads I would have blown up the gun for sure.

As it was I had to beat the case out of the cylinder with a dowel. The bolt notch in the cylinder was slightly deformed, as described by Elmer Keith in Sixguns, due to the excess pressure. From then on extraction from that one cylinder cavity is more difficult though doable.

[William T. Watts]

I guess I've been fortunate, I never seen an firearm related injury nor seen a rifle blow up, I have however seen a rifle's action locked where the bolt would not rotate. The fellow was shooting a friends reloads, I shudder every time I hear a phrase like that. I personally have never had a squib nor a overload event in 45 years of handloading, I attribute that to using powders that have a burning rate that make a double charge impossible. William

[Brian Pfleuger]

...was shooting a friends reloads...

Astonishing, how many times those words are included in these accounts.


I have a friend who shoots my reloads but I would not shoot anyone elses. I guess that makes me a hypocrite.