Remington Rand Inc. originality

[CEldon]

Hello, I inherited some forearms that are finally going to get some attention. But first things first.
I have a Remington Rand M 1911 A1. It appears that my father had modified it to some extent. Here are the markings, and other points, for your information. Please let me know what you think.
It is marked “REMINGTON RAND INC. SYRACUSE NY. U.S.A.” on the left slide. “UNITED STATES PROPERTY M 1911 A1 U.S. ARMY NO. 987***” on the other side. “45 AUTO #7791193” is stamped on the barrel.
The letter “P” is stamped near the magazine release button. The Remington “Crossed Cannons” stamp is on R-rear of frame. There is a very faint “M” marking on top of the frame next to the disconnector. There is a “Star” emblem stamped inside forward frame and FJA is stamped behind the trigger.
Oddly, there is a S&W stamp on one side, and “M” stamp on other side of the barrel.
The slide stop is a serrated 1-piece that extends almost all of the way back to the manual safety. The grips are the rubber Bianchi wrap-around type that block the manual safety (It cannot be engaged) and there is no lanyard loop.
What do you think? How much is original? Do I need the manual safety? Is the S&W stamp weird?
Thanks

[Ricklin]

While you may get some response, pix would be very helpful. Inline requires hosting, but you can attach pretty easily.

[dogtown tom]

https://coolgunsite.com/index.html has everything you need to know about those markings.

[Jim Watson]

Smith and Wesson made replacement barrels to the 779113 blueprint.
I remember back in the 1970s when Gil Hebard was selling them for $6.

The extended slide stop is an aftermarket gimmick.

I would not want grips that blocked the safety.

[Webleymkv]

Remington-Rand was, IIRC, one of the more common makes of 1911A1 produced during WWII and thus are not as valuable as the rarer makes like Singer. 1911A1's were produced in such large numbers during WWII that the U.S. military never produced any more large runs of them afterward and thus many guns produced during WWII and before continued on in service through Korea, Vietnam, and beyond only being taken out of inventory when eventually phased out by the Beretta M9 in the 1980's and 1990's. As such, mismatched 1911's and 1911A1's are quite common as, due to their long service life, many were reworked and had parts replaced numerous times.

Ferreting out all of the replacement parts on your gun would likely be difficult and prohibitively expensive as you don't know for sure what parts have been replaced over the last 70-80 years and original parts may be rare or unavailable. Were the gun mine, I might consider replacing parts like the slide stop and grips to put it back into some semblance of "GI configuration" but beyond that, I'd simply keep it as a family heirloom that can also be enjoyed at the range.

As for the grips, while anything is certainly possible, I have a hard time imagining what sort of grip would prevent the manual safety from being engaged or why a well-known company like Bianchi would make such a thing. When you say the "manual safety," do you mean the thumb safety on the side of the frame or the grip safety on the backstrap? I can more easily see a "wraparound" grip than blocks the grip safety as, in years past, pinning the grip safety was a not-uncommon modification. I would consider a grip which blocks the thumb safety to be unsafe and would not attempt to load, much less fire, the gun until such grips were replaced and deposited in the trash where they belong. A grip which blocks the grip safety isn't as big an issue in my mind as you still have the thumb safety and many guns patterned after the 1911 such as the Star Model B and Ballester-Molina lack a grip safety all together. Even if the grips only block the grip safety, I'd probably still replace them myself as GI-style 1911 grips are commonly available and inexpensive and, because the Bianchi grips you have are aftermarket already, replacing the grips should not hurt the guns value.

[44 AMP]

The slide stop is a serrated 1-piece that extends almost all of the way back to the manual safety. The grips are the rubber Bianchi wrap-around type that block the manual safety (It cannot be engaged) and there is no lanyard loop.
What do you think? How much is original? Do I need the manual safety?

The GI (and commercial Colt) slide stop ends just in front of the plunger tube. If the "shelf" of the slide stop extends nearly back to the safety, it is not GI, it is an aftermarket part, with the "speed" feature.

Properly made and fitted rubber grips, even the wrap around type DO NOT block the thumb safety. If yours does, its either incorrectly made, mounted, or for a different model gun, and of course is NOT GI original.

The lanyard loop on the gun is on the bottom of the mainspring housing. The correct GI part has one, aftermarket parts often do not.

do you need a manual safety? Opinions vary, but while Browning didn't think it was needed (and his original prototypes don't have one) the US Army (particularly the Cavalry) thought it was needed, and so Browning added it to the gun that became the 1911.

Personally, I am a firm believer in having and using the thumb safety (aka Safety Lock).

Don't know about the other markings but FJA stood for Frank J Atwood the head of the ordnance district where Remington (and Ithaca) were located.

[CEldon]

I'll attach images as soon as i figure out how to do that. Unfortunately, it's not a drag&drop process.

[CEldon]

Maybe these images will work. If not, I'll try another day.

[Dfariswheel]

Your 1911-A1 has been extensively modified.
The front sight was replaced.

The rear sight was replaced with what appears to be a S&W sight. This was a popular modification back in the 1960's.

The hammer was replaced with a rounded Commander type.

The slide stop was replaced with and extended type.

The mainspring housing was replaced with a flat housing.

A trigger shoe has been put on the trigger.

The thumb safety has been replaced or modified with an extension.

The grips were replaced. They do not appear to block the safety from operating. I'd look for some other reason if the safety won't move.
Cock the hammer and try the safety. It only operates with the hammer cocked.

The grip safety was either replaced or modified to allow using the Commander hammer.

I'm not sure what type of front sight was used, hopefully it's not a Millet type.
Millet front sights required drilling two holes in the slide so the tubes on the sight could be crimped inside the slide.

This gun looks like what a popular modification for 1960's combat shooting was done.

[44 AMP]

Thanks for the pictures, the show alot.

Your gun has been extensively refitted with post WWII civilian parts.

The Slide stop is not original.
The Safety is not original.
The Hammer is not original.
The Mainspring housing is not original.
The Sights are not original.
The grips are not original.

The trigger appears to have a trigger shoe on it, so I can't see if it is original, or not,

Given the amount of work visible, its likely the gun has had a trigger job done, and may have had some (or all) of the internal parts replaced, as well.

Also very likely the barrel is not the original one, either.

Lots of GI guns got "upgraded" in the 60s, 70s, and 80s, back when they were common and cheap, before they had value as WWII collectors pieces.

Remington Rand produced somewhere over 875,000 guns, according to sources I have seen. Not common these days, but not terribly rare, except for guns still in complete original GI configuration. Those are relatively rare, these days.

Because of all the modifications, your pistol has little or no value to WWII collectors. If the safety were free to work (and simply replacing the grips might do that) it would have value as a functional "shooter grade" 1911A1.

[5whiskey]

Dfaris and 44amp (independently, and at roughly the same time) caught the major "non-original" parts pictures. My attention to detail when just looking at a picture is not what it used to be. I missed the trigger shoe and mainspring housing (though that we kinda already knew because of the lack of lanyard loop).

Webleymkv gives probably the best advice:

Were the gun mine, I might consider replacing parts like the slide stop and grips to put it back into some semblance of "GI configuration" but beyond that, I'd simply keep it as a family heirloom that can also be enjoyed at the range.

And honestly, even the CMP 1911s from a few years ago likely had similar treatment. No US owned 1911 being sold today is likely all original. They've all had parts swapped at some point, many of them have not an original part other than the frame. Not much harm in swapping the parts to make this more of a GI Configuration, unless you want to keep it as it was left to you by family. Nothing wrong with either option there.

[44 AMP]

They've all had parts swapped at some point,

I wouldn't say "all" but the huge majority have had some parts replaced, and some have had nearly everything replaced AFTER they left Govt ownership.

During my service in the mid 70s, I saw three different actual 1911s (not A1s) in the arms rooms of my "customer" units. One was pristine, looking new in the box, so, if that one had actually been issued it was babied as there was no visible wear at all. Another one showed light wear and had WWII plastic grips, and the 3rd one had "been to the wars" and had a couple of A1 parts on it.

There are guns like that. There are guns that never had the parts dumped in the platoon solvent barrel and fished out and reassembled into several different pistols.

"Arsenal rework" doesn't always mean parts stay together nor does it mean they are always "spread out into different guns. Both are possible and have happened.

When the military adopted the M1911A1 the standing order was that 1911s were to be maintained with A1 parts as needed. IF the original parts never broke or became unserviceable, they weren't replaced.

While not extremely likely you might find an early or a WWII gun with the "original" springs. The GI recoil spring serviceability standard is a minimum length, providing there is no damage, kinks, flatspots, rust, etc, if the spring is long enough. it passes.

With the Remington Rand the OP has, replacing most of the "incorrect" parts with the period correct ones is possible and not especially difficult once you find the proper parts. I wouldn't mess with the sights, though. What's on the gun is better than the GI sights, and will add to its value as a shooter, since its collector value as original GI is about nil.

[Mike Irwin]

"Remington-Rand was, IIRC, one of the more common makes of 1911A1 produced during WWII and thus are not as valuable as the rarer makes like Singer. "

One thing I learned while answering the recent question on Singer 1911s is that, after the initial run of 500, Singer shipped their equipment off to Remington-Rand.

So, some (many? all?) Remington-Rand 1911s can be thought of as Singer babies. Sort of.

[RickB]

Remington Rand was the largest manufacturer of M1911A1 pistols during WWII.
If the slide were still wearing the original sights, it possibly would be worthwhile, financially, to replace the non-G.I. small parts, but also replacing the slide would make the cost prohibitive.
Could you elaborate on, "Do I need the manual safety?"

[44 AMP]

The gun is not in original GI configuration. "Restoring" it to look correct does not change the fact that it was altered, and the alteration is what damages or even eliminates its collector value.

You could, for example send the gun to someone like Turnbull and for enough $ have the gun returned to completely correct original appearance. Other than the fact that Turnbull will put a mark on the gun showing it is a restoration, so it cannot be passed off as original, it will look just like it did in 1945.

It will not, however command the collector value an original unaltered, unrestored gun does. And trying to sell it as all original would be fraud.

[CEldon]

Well, Thanks you all, for the reply’s. It’s a good thing I wasn’t hoping this to be an original, or close-to-original Remington. To tell the truth, with all of the non-original parts that even I could identify, I didn’t expect it to be anything other than a nice .45. It will be a .45 that I can customize and not worry about collector status.

The slide stop and safety don’t really bother me, but I think I’ll put a nice pair of wood grips on it. I understand that the original grips were plastic, but I like the wood. A larger beavertail would be nice too. My hand skin tends to get pinched every now and then. Other than that, it will be a nice piece passed down to me, to be passed on to my Grandson. Now on to one of the other weapons.

Thanks again for all of your expertise.

[ZoieBarnett]

it's difficult to determine the extent of originality without a thorough inspection by a knowledgeable firearms expert. The presence of aftermarket modifications and the unusual barrel stamp suggest that this pistol may have undergone alterations over the years. If you're interested in learning more about the history and authenticity of your Remington Rand M1911A1, consider seeking assistance from a qualified firearms appraiser or historian.

[radom]

All in all its a good solid 1911 45 there. Can be set up to factory specs but the cost is not worth the bother. Just shoot it and have fun.