Sharps 45/70 question

ms6852 · October 27, 2017, 11:34 PM

I just recently scratched an itch I had and purchased a 45/70 1874 Sharps by Pedersoli. I have really gotten addicted to this and now want to load for it but have to wait as I have never loaded black powder so I have a few books on order to read up before doing so. The questions are as follows.

1. My reloading manuals for trapdoor actions all state to use a .458 diameter and I would like to start using cast bullets at 405 grains but cabbalas only has them at .459 diameter. Can I use this? I have the RCBS dies that I use on jacketed bullets, will I need to buy and additional die or will mine be enough to where it will not shave the bullet?

2. The cast bullets I was looking at were Laser cast bullets, do they already come lubed?

As the moment I only reload with smokeless powder and have no knowledge of casting or using cast bullets or using black powder but I do have 3 books on order to help me get started. Thank you for the information . I have done a search on this forum in the reloading section but got tired after 32 pages. But will continue to search for my questions.

Dufus · October 28, 2017, 12:54 AM

I can't answer all your questions, but I can about the cast bullets.

My mold casts a 0.460" bullet with my alloy. I size them to 0.459" and lube 'em up.

As far as the RCBS die question, adjust the expander to give an adequate flare to prevent bullet shaving.

Most all commercial cast bullets are lubed before they are packaged and shipped.

ms6852 · October 28, 2017, 01:27 AM

Thanks guys appreciate the replies. I just found out that RCBS makes a set of dies for Cowboy loads that works well with cast bullets and copper jacketed. Since I am still in the research phase I will just return the dies I purchased and ask for the cowboy set. Thanks again for your answers.

Old Stony · October 28, 2017, 01:40 AM

I think you will have better results using bullets designed and set up for black powder. Laser Cast are really good bullets, but probably too hard for good black powder shooting...and are lubed for smokeless powder. If you don't want to cast your own, there are a lot of suppliers out there that sell bullets more suited for loading with black powder.
If you decide to load some with smokeless for your Sharps, the Laser Cast should do well for you.

NoSecondBest · October 28, 2017, 08:05 AM

I've owned several Pedersoli Sharps rifles. Their bores run very consistent for dia. (.4575) and you should use a cast bullet at least 1-2thou larger than that. The Laser Cast shot well out of my guns. You'd probably be better off starting out with smokeless with this gun until you learn a lot about black powder. It's a whole new ball game and runs into a long learning curve. If that's all you're wanting to do with it, then have at it. It's a lot of fun also, but you're going to find it's fairly complex to get the accuracy you'll be satisfied with. There's a lot more cleaning, loading complexities (using drop tubes), shooting (using blow tubes), and you haven't even gotten into the sights you'll need to shoot long/longer distances. They will cost as much as the gun. I've been there and it's a dedicated shooting discipline. I wish you the best of luck....it can end up being very rewarding.

mehavey · October 28, 2017, 08:07 AM

First, you need SOFT*/BP-lubed bullets (being real soft, you can get away w/ .458)
https://www.buffaloarms.com/458-405-...of-50-458405hb

Second, you need (at a minimum) that RCBS "Cowboy" dies set whose expander is slightly larger diameter.
These don't hurt either:
https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/14...saAjUWEALw_wcB
https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/14...saAjUWEALw_wcB
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categ.../1/DIE-458-EXP

Third, You will need to compress the powder (start w/ ⅛") so get a compression die.
https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/42...4mwUq9aaFokKya

Fourth, you need one (or more) over-powder card wads.
https://www.buffaloarms.com/reloadin...1000-wal463030

* soft means SOFT !

...... Ain't black powder FUN !!?
(and we ain't even started talkin'`bout casting your own .... yet)

ms6852 · October 28, 2017, 03:10 PM

This is great guys. So far I have order the following books: Loading cartridges for the original .454-70 Springfield rifle and Carbine by J.S. and Pat wolf, 40 years loading the 45-70 by Paul Matthews, the loading and casting Lyman books on blackpowder and also Mike Venturino's book the title escapes me.

ms6852 · October 28, 2017, 03:30 PM

Mehavey the list of links are very, very helpful. I ordered them today. My rifle is equipped with the Pedrsoli long-range sights (Creedmore). I have shot it at 200 yards and so far it shoots everything accurately. At the beginning I had the crosshair frontsights mounted and was all over the place shooting the 405 gr Remington Cor-lokts than I switched to the globe front sight and I was able to get the rest of the 16 shots in the 10 and X-ring. I than switched to Winchester 300 grain and got 4 in the X ring and 1 in the 10 ring. All this at 100 yds.
At 200 yards based on the load data in the box I adjusted my elevation to reflect the 12.2 inch drop but shot over my target and I thought I had miscalculated with my sights. I did in a manner of speaking but with the 34" barrel I realized that my bullet was not dropping as much as the load data had suggested. I reset my elevation to the 100 yd zero and had an impact 6" below the X-ring. From than on I fired 6 more shots and had two touching and four of then very close. The 6 shot group could be cover with a poker playing card.

I blame it on my eyesight as my floaters in my eyes sometime get in the way but regardless, at 200 yds that deer or elk ends up in my freezer.

If anyone else has any more advice as to what I need to get please let me know. It will take me a while to read all the books I have ordered and sometimes I will read it over and over to make sure I understand it.

Thanks guys this rifle has elevated my shooting addiction to another level.

ocharry · October 28, 2017, 08:15 PM

ms....mehavey has given you some good info.....here is my .02

I never resize my cases....once they are shot there is no need...as long as they go back in that gun...I do what is called finger seating...all you really need for this is a decapper and a compression die....if you need to hold the bullet in the case to hunt...just a kiss of a crimp will do that...and you I'll need a bullet seater die for that

As mehavey said you will need a drop tube and a compression die....I always use a .030-.060 card wad over the powder and then compress.....you can use the plastic over powder wad too...I like the .060

My drop tube is 30" long.....it helps the powder column settle in the case....kinda like bumping the barrel on a muzzle loader....

Once your powder is compressed....and how much compression depends on bullet weight...then the sized and lubed bullet should just slip into the case and the soft bullet lube will help hold the bullet in the case

I would also recommend you make or buy a blow tube...after the shot slide the blow tube into the chamber and blow your breath down the barrel....2-3 maybe 4 breaths....it will keep the fouling soft in the barrel...with a 34" barrel you will need to play with that to see what you need to keep the fouling soft....on hot days it will be more....and also good bullet lube will be your friend...I make my own...there are lots of recipes out there

I would think that gun has a 1-18 twist and it will more than likely shoot the heavier bullets better ....450-550gr ...than the lighter bullets

Lots to learn with black powder but I bet that big rifle is gona impress you....dont be skeeerd to stretch her legs....500yrds should be a piece of cake....200 yrds is off hand shooting...lol...if you can hold it

My .02

Ocharry

ms6852 · October 28, 2017, 11:15 PM

Thanks for your 2 cents ocharry. You are correct the twist is a 1:18. It is front heavy for off hand shooting and am now considering in buying one with a 30" barrel for a better balance.
I practice off hand shooting my 52C Winchester with a heavy 28" and my Remington 513T at 200 yards during the summer to get ready for deer season. My brothers are always amazed at how well I can shoot that way whereas they have to use sticks or shoot prone.

My brothers have land in West Texas where hopefully I can push this beauty a little farther. I will start at 400 yds and take it out to 1500 yds...I should be ready by March or April and will hopefully load some 405 grainers and 500 as well. Once again thanks for the advice.

I will be bugging the hell out of you guys with more questions when the time comes.

bbqncigars · October 29, 2017, 09:50 PM

I've shot black in my 1874 Creedmoor replica, then promptly switched to smokeless (I hated the cleanup). My gun favors a 535gr Postell boolit over the appropriate charge of Varget or 4759.

mehavey · October 30, 2017, 06:39 AM

And if you do go to smokeless....
See https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...9&postcount=17

ms6852 · October 30, 2017, 07:51 AM

That looks real good.

October 27, 2017, 11:34 PM	#1
ms6852 Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2010 Location: Texas Posts: 1,394	Sharps 45/70 question I just recently scratched an itch I had and purchased a 45/70 1874 Sharps by Pedersoli. I have really gotten addicted to this and now want to load for it but have to wait as I have never loaded black powder so I have a few books on order to read up before doing so. The questions are as follows. 1. My reloading manuals for trapdoor actions all state to use a .458 diameter and I would like to start using cast bullets at 405 grains but cabbalas only has them at .459 diameter. Can I use this? I have the RCBS dies that I use on jacketed bullets, will I need to buy and additional die or will mine be enough to where it will not shave the bullet? 2. The cast bullets I was looking at were Laser cast bullets, do they already come lubed? As the moment I only reload with smokeless powder and have no knowledge of casting or using cast bullets or using black powder but I do have 3 books on order to help me get started. Thank you for the information . I have done a search on this forum in the reloading section but got tired after 32 pages. But will continue to search for my questions. __________________ ONLY TWO DEFINING FORCES HAVE GIVEN UP THEIR LIVES FOR YOU. ONE IS JESUS CHRIST FOR YOUR SOUL AND THE OTHER IS THE AMERICAN SOLDIER FOR YOUR FREEDOM.

October 28, 2017, 01:27 AM	#3
ms6852 Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2010 Location: Texas Posts: 1,394	Thanks guys appreciate the replies. I just found out that RCBS makes a set of dies for Cowboy loads that works well with cast bullets and copper jacketed. Since I am still in the research phase I will just return the dies I purchased and ask for the cowboy set. Thanks again for your answers. __________________ ONLY TWO DEFINING FORCES HAVE GIVEN UP THEIR LIVES FOR YOU. ONE IS JESUS CHRIST FOR YOUR SOUL AND THE OTHER IS THE AMERICAN SOLDIER FOR YOUR FREEDOM.

October 28, 2017, 08:07 AM	#6
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,903	First, you need SOFT/BP-lubed bullets (being real soft, you can get away w/ .458) https://www.buffaloarms.com/458-405-...of-50-458405hb Second, you need (at a minimum) that RCBS "Cowboy" dies set whose expander is slightly larger diameter. These don't hurt either: https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/14...saAjUWEALw_wcB https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/14...saAjUWEALw_wcB https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categ.../1/DIE-458-EXP Third, You will need to compress the powder (start w/ ⅛") so get a compression die. https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/42...4mwUq9aaFokKya Fourth, you need one (or more) over-powder card wads. https://www.buffaloarms.com/reloadin...1000-wal463030 soft means SOFT ! ...... Ain't black powder FUN !!? (and we ain't even started talkin'`bout casting your own .... yet) Last edited by mehavey; October 28, 2017 at 11:34 AM.

October 28, 2017, 03:10 PM	#7
ms6852 Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2010 Location: Texas Posts: 1,394	This is great guys. So far I have order the following books: Loading cartridges for the original .454-70 Springfield rifle and Carbine by J.S. and Pat wolf, 40 years loading the 45-70 by Paul Matthews, the loading and casting Lyman books on blackpowder and also Mike Venturino's book the title escapes me. __________________ ONLY TWO DEFINING FORCES HAVE GIVEN UP THEIR LIVES FOR YOU. ONE IS JESUS CHRIST FOR YOUR SOUL AND THE OTHER IS THE AMERICAN SOLDIER FOR YOUR FREEDOM.

October 28, 2017, 03:30 PM	#8
ms6852 Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2010 Location: Texas Posts: 1,394	Mehavey the list of links are very, very helpful. I ordered them today. My rifle is equipped with the Pedrsoli long-range sights (Creedmore). I have shot it at 200 yards and so far it shoots everything accurately. At the beginning I had the crosshair frontsights mounted and was all over the place shooting the 405 gr Remington Cor-lokts than I switched to the globe front sight and I was able to get the rest of the 16 shots in the 10 and X-ring. I than switched to Winchester 300 grain and got 4 in the X ring and 1 in the 10 ring. All this at 100 yds. At 200 yards based on the load data in the box I adjusted my elevation to reflect the 12.2 inch drop but shot over my target and I thought I had miscalculated with my sights. I did in a manner of speaking but with the 34" barrel I realized that my bullet was not dropping as much as the load data had suggested. I reset my elevation to the 100 yd zero and had an impact 6" below the X-ring. From than on I fired 6 more shots and had two touching and four of then very close. The 6 shot group could be cover with a poker playing card. I blame it on my eyesight as my floaters in my eyes sometime get in the way but regardless, at 200 yds that deer or elk ends up in my freezer. If anyone else has any more advice as to what I need to get please let me know. It will take me a while to read all the books I have ordered and sometimes I will read it over and over to make sure I understand it. Thanks guys this rifle has elevated my shooting addiction to another level. __________________ ONLY TWO DEFINING FORCES HAVE GIVEN UP THEIR LIVES FOR YOU. ONE IS JESUS CHRIST FOR YOUR SOUL AND THE OTHER IS THE AMERICAN SOLDIER FOR YOUR FREEDOM.

October 28, 2017, 12:54 AM	#2
Dufus Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2014 Posts: 1,965	I can't answer all your questions, but I can about the cast bullets. My mold casts a 0.460" bullet with my alloy. I size them to 0.459" and lube 'em up. As far as the RCBS die question, adjust the expander to give an adequate flare to prevent bullet shaving. Most all commercial cast bullets are lubed before they are packaged and shipped.

October 28, 2017, 01:40 AM	#4
Old Stony Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2013 Location: East Texas Posts: 1,705	I think you will have better results using bullets designed and set up for black powder. Laser Cast are really good bullets, but probably too hard for good black powder shooting...and are lubed for smokeless powder. If you don't want to cast your own, there are a lot of suppliers out there that sell bullets more suited for loading with black powder. If you decide to load some with smokeless for your Sharps, the Laser Cast should do well for you.

October 28, 2017, 08:05 AM	#5
NoSecondBest Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Western New York Posts: 2,736	I've owned several Pedersoli Sharps rifles. Their bores run very consistent for dia. (.4575) and you should use a cast bullet at least 1-2thou larger than that. The Laser Cast shot well out of my guns. You'd probably be better off starting out with smokeless with this gun until you learn a lot about black powder. It's a whole new ball game and runs into a long learning curve. If that's all you're wanting to do with it, then have at it. It's a lot of fun also, but you're going to find it's fairly complex to get the accuracy you'll be satisfied with. There's a lot more cleaning, loading complexities (using drop tubes), shooting (using blow tubes), and you haven't even gotten into the sights you'll need to shoot long/longer distances. They will cost as much as the gun. I've been there and it's a dedicated shooting discipline. I wish you the best of luck....it can end up being very rewarding.

October 28, 2017, 08:15 PM	#9
ocharry Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2006 Posts: 687	ms....mehavey has given you some good info.....here is my .02 I never resize my cases....once they are shot there is no need...as long as they go back in that gun...I do what is called finger seating...all you really need for this is a decapper and a compression die....if you need to hold the bullet in the case to hunt...just a kiss of a crimp will do that...and you I'll need a bullet seater die for that As mehavey said you will need a drop tube and a compression die....I always use a .030-.060 card wad over the powder and then compress.....you can use the plastic over powder wad too...I like the .060 My drop tube is 30" long.....it helps the powder column settle in the case....kinda like bumping the barrel on a muzzle loader.... Once your powder is compressed....and how much compression depends on bullet weight...then the sized and lubed bullet should just slip into the case and the soft bullet lube will help hold the bullet in the case I would also recommend you make or buy a blow tube...after the shot slide the blow tube into the chamber and blow your breath down the barrel....2-3 maybe 4 breaths....it will keep the fouling soft in the barrel...with a 34" barrel you will need to play with that to see what you need to keep the fouling soft....on hot days it will be more....and also good bullet lube will be your friend...I make my own...there are lots of recipes out there I would think that gun has a 1-18 twist and it will more than likely shoot the heavier bullets better ....450-550gr ...than the lighter bullets Lots to learn with black powder but I bet that big rifle is gona impress you....dont be skeeerd to stretch her legs....500yrds should be a piece of cake....200 yrds is off hand shooting...lol...if you can hold it My .02 Ocharry __________________ The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge nor jury. Therefore what he must be taught to fear is his victim." - Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC Last edited by ocharry; October 28, 2017 at 08:20 PM.

October 28, 2017, 11:15 PM	#10
ms6852 Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2010 Location: Texas Posts: 1,394	Thanks for your 2 cents ocharry. You are correct the twist is a 1:18. It is front heavy for off hand shooting and am now considering in buying one with a 30" barrel for a better balance. I practice off hand shooting my 52C Winchester with a heavy 28" and my Remington 513T at 200 yards during the summer to get ready for deer season. My brothers are always amazed at how well I can shoot that way whereas they have to use sticks or shoot prone. My brothers have land in West Texas where hopefully I can push this beauty a little farther. I will start at 400 yds and take it out to 1500 yds...I should be ready by March or April and will hopefully load some 405 grainers and 500 as well. Once again thanks for the advice. I will be bugging the hell out of you guys with more questions when the time comes. __________________ ONLY TWO DEFINING FORCES HAVE GIVEN UP THEIR LIVES FOR YOU. ONE IS JESUS CHRIST FOR YOUR SOUL AND THE OTHER IS THE AMERICAN SOLDIER FOR YOUR FREEDOM.

October 29, 2017, 09:50 PM	#11
bbqncigars Senior Member Join Date: February 1, 2009 Location: Iowa Posts: 525	I've shot black in my 1874 Creedmoor replica, then promptly switched to smokeless (I hated the cleanup). My gun favors a 535gr Postell boolit over the appropriate charge of Varget or 4759. __________________ "Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most." A. Brilliant

October 30, 2017, 06:39 AM	#12
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,903	And if you do go to smokeless.... See https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...9&postcount=17

October 30, 2017, 07:51 AM	#13
ms6852 Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2010 Location: Texas Posts: 1,394	That looks real good. __________________ ONLY TWO DEFINING FORCES HAVE GIVEN UP THEIR LIVES FOR YOU. ONE IS JESUS CHRIST FOR YOUR SOUL AND THE OTHER IS THE AMERICAN SOLDIER FOR YOUR FREEDOM.