410 question.

[doofus47]

I was given a 410. It's a savage 58 bolt action. It's sized for 3" shells, but that might be normal for 410. I'm thinking it might be fun to chase rabbits while walking with the dog.
I know nothing about 410 shells. How do they measure the shot? the same way as a 12? What would be good for rabbits? About what is the maximum/minimum distance to take a shot with a 410 on a rabbit?

thanks
d47

[Scorch]

Shot sizes are standardized, so a #2 is #2, #4 is #4, etc, no matter the gauge of the gun.

Patterns on a .410 are measured the same way as a 12 gauge, % shot in a 40" circle at X yards, but since the .410 has so much less shot than the larger bores, patterns get mighty thin out at 40-50 yds. This generally means it is a closer-range tool than a 12 or 20 gauge.

Rabbits are easy to kill, one pellet will often put them down. Grouse are tougher, pheasants even more so, so it is imperative to get on target quickly and get the shot off quickly, which in turn requires a high level of skill to hit the target since your pattern is so much smaller at close range. This is one of the reasons why people say that a .410 is an expert's gun.

Bolt action shotguns vary by maker from pretty good quality to absolutely awful, so you need to test the gun and find out where it shoots and how tight the pattern. Shells for a .410 are several times the cost of 20 gauge shells, so .410s have lost favor over the past 50 years.

[doofus47]

Thanks for the info, Scorch.

[Cheapshooter]

The big difference in the 410, and other shotguns is how it is measured. 410 is a bore measurement. The actual diameter of the bore. Other shotguns are sized by gauge. That is How many lead balls of bore diameter it takes to weigh a pound. That's why the larger the bore diameter, the lower the numeric value of the gauge. A 12 gauge would take 12 balls to equal a pound. A 20 gauge would take 20 because they are smaller.
A 410 bore by the way would be a 67.7 gauge. A 12 gauge would be a 727 bore.
The 410 shells come in either 2 1/2" or 3" , and either will work fine in your gun. The three inch having a bit more payload.

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

Have snowshoe rabbits in my neck of the woods. Best rabbit gun I have is a Iver Johnson single-shot 410. No dog. Tip: Don't take much to stop a fleeing bunny in its tracks. Just a loud whistle will often put those rabbit brakes on for just a moment's stalling.
I reload #6 shot for my 410. Why I prefer #6 shot? ~such shot carries a little further than #8's. About 20-25 yards is all the distance I care to shoot. #6 pattern at that distance is still reasonably good killing zone. Best places to find rabbit I found are river banks, field edges and clear cutting of popular tree's. Good luck.

[Don Fischer]

I believe the idea that a 410 is an expert's gun is off. I think it's a great learner's gun! Learn with a 410 and become a good shot with it and what challenge are the bigger gauge's?

[FITASC]

Patterns on a .410 are measured the same way as a 12 gauge, % shot in a 40" circle at X yards, but since the .410 has so much less shot than the larger bores, patterns get mighty thin out at 40-50 yds. This generally means it is a closer-range tool than a 12 or 20 gauge.

410s are patterned at no more than 25 yards,
Depending on what choke the gun has, shots on rabbits could be as short as 5 yards to 30. I would prefer the smallest shot that would give a clean kill to get the most pellets in the load, so something like #6, maybe even 7.5.
Rabbits aren't hard to kill; I got one in my backyard with a .177 air rifle (RWS 34)

[44 AMP]

For rabbits, #6 or larger is traditional.

The .410 is an expert's gun, for wingshooting. It's a great beginner's shotgun for ground game and pests, but not good for beginners shooting birds on the wing.

Opinion based on personal experience when I was 14.

Be aware many, if not most of the low budget .410s are full choke. And, if the gun was made before the introduction of modern plastic shot cups, the full choke will act as a "extra super full" one.

SO, small bore, small shot charge, and very often full choke means the .410 is the most difficult shotgun to hit flying targets with. The old saying was "if you're an expert and want a real challenge TRY and hit with the .410"

On the other hand, it is the perfect shotgun for a beginner/youth to use shooting squirrels, rabbits, skunks and vermin at short range.

40 yards, the traditional "long range" for the bigger shotguns is a real stretch for the .410. keep shots to 25-30yds (or less) and you'll do better.

[doofus47]

thanks lots.

[bamaranger]

I can tell you w/ absolute certainty that the .410 will cleanly take bunnies to 30 yds or so, provided you choose the right shell. As seen already on this thread, # 6 shot is frequently recommended, and I see a lot of #4 shot in the stores. But due to the small payload of the .410, # 4 shot is way to big (not enough pellets) and #6 is borderline for an adequate pellet count. There is an old shotgun mantra that "pattern fails before penetration" and the .410 is no exception , and VERY susceptible to poor patterns due to small shot charges and the selected pellet size being TOO LARGE. What I have seen work, and used effectively on cottontails myself for a number of years, is the 3" shell and #7-1/2 shot.

The 3" shell is superior to the 2-1/2" shell and I am of the belief the short shell is best avoided for game. Choose a shot size no larger than #6, and as noted #7-1/2 may be ideal. I have only ever used #7-1/2 shot on game in the .410, and I cannot advise if #8 is available in the 3" shell. I would go no smaller than #8 on furred game and only if I was relatively certain my shooting would be close range, say 25 yds.

Dad and I used .410's for a span of some 20 yrs or so on rabbits and took a boatload, hunting with beagles and access to lots of property.

[PoorRichRichard]

I love hunting with my little .410 guns. Use them for rabbit, planted pheasant, and finishing off my dove limit. I agree that it’s a great gauge for both beginners (rabbits and small game/low recoil) and experts (wingshooting). I’m surprised nobody has mentioned its advantage in having a longer shot string than 12 and 20 gauge due to its smaller bore (similar to 28 gauge). If you can get your elevation correct and learn to lead properly with your shots, 28 and .410 actually get you out past 30 yards on small birds such as dove and quail.

Conversely, be careful on closer shots (I’m talking inside 10 yards) on rabbits because that condensed shot pattern can easily blow a nice sized hole in your quarry and ruin a lot of meat, or render the whole darn rabbit inedible (speaking from experience unfortunately).

[PoorRichRichard]

I also really dig .410 because it’s cheap to reload.

[44 AMP]

I’m surprised nobody has mentioned its advantage in having a longer shot string than 12 and 20 gauge due to its smaller bore

In my case, I don't know what the advantage of a longer shot string is. Could you elaborate a bit?

I know the advantage of a shorter shot string on flying birds, and wingshooting is different from ground shooting, most of the time, though there is similarity with running game.

So, what is the advantage to a longer shot string vs a wider, shorter one?, and on what targets?

[Jack O'Conner]

410 is the smallest shotgun gauge available and that means lightest recoil as well. But the shot patterns are thinner which requires greater skill shooting at running or flying targets.

Jack

[FITASC]

Quote:
I’m surprised nobody has mentioned its advantage in having a longer shot string than 12 and 20 gauge due to its smaller bore
In my case, I don't know what the advantage of a longer shot string is. Could you elaborate a bit?

There is zero advantage to a longer shot string; in fact, it is a detriment. The longer the string, the more likely to have a miss and a very poor thin latter with lots of holes in it.
One of the reasons the 28 and 16 get praise is because of their "square load" properties giving them shorter shot strings which more pellets in the immediate vicinity of the target thus reducing any holes in the pattern.

[PoorRichRichard]

There is zero advantage to a longer shot string; in fact, it is a detriment. The longer the string, the more likely to have a miss and a very poor thin latter with lots of holes in it.
One of the reasons the 28 and 16 get praise is because of their "square load" properties giving them shorter shot strings which more pellets in the immediate vicinity of the target thus reducing any holes in the pattern.

I couldn’t disagree more. Think about it. While hunting dove or small ducks, it only takes a few pellets (if not just one well placed piece of shot) I to bring them down. If you’ve got a bird flying perpendicular (average cross-shot on the edge of a field) to your muzzle (particularly at high-speed—I’m talking 50-60mph), the bird can actually fly into your longer shot string depending on your lead.

This is why many refer to 28 and .410 as “expert” guns. If you know how to use the longer string on these smaller flying targets, you can be very effective past 30 yards- provided you can get your elevation correct with such a small shot pattern.

[SHR970]

doofus47: how many *'s on the barrel if any? The biggest problem with 410's to this day is that they are choked either FULL or MOD. based on the card wads used in the past. If you are lucky you have a *** barrel which means IC.

I love the 410 bore but keep in mind that I only consider it a 25 yard gun. I had my fixed choke O/U changed from Mod / Full to Sk1 / Sk2. I have slayed many mountain quail with it by staying within the bores limitations.

[jmr40]

I couldn’t disagree more. Think about it. While hunting dove or small ducks, it only takes a few pellets (if not just one well placed piece of shot) I to bring them down. If you’ve got a bird flying perpendicular (average cross-shot on the edge of a field) to your muzzle (particularly at high-speed—I’m talking 50-60mph), the bird can actually fly into your longer shot string depending on your lead.

You're over thinking this and coming to the wrong conclusion. A longer shot string isn't a disadvantage when shooting stationary targets. This is why 20 ga shotguns can be effective on turkey. Even if there is a fraction of a second delay between the 1st pellets to arrive and the last pellets it won't matter.

But if we compare #6 shot there will be ~255 pellets per ounce. That means about 300-350 pellets in a typical 12 ga shell. As many as 450-500 in some. But a typical .410 will only have 130-150 pellets in the shell.

If your shot string is 3' long then you're eliminating 1/3 of those pellets from having any possibility of hitting the target. So you effectively only have 40-50 pellets with any chance of hitting your target. If the shot string is 5' long you can eliminate 80% of those pellets getting the number down to 25-30 pellets with any possibility of hitting the target. Even with a perfectly aimed shot there is a good chance every pellet will miss.

The only way a longer shot string could possibly help you is if you're consistently missing in front of a target. Then it would be possible for the target to fly into the trailing edge of the pattern and result in a hit instead of a miss. And even then the odds of this happening with a 410 with the limited number of pellets is even lower. But in the real world that almost never happens. People miss by shooting behind far more often than in front. You'll get a lot more hits if all of the pellets arrive at very close to the same time.

[FITASC]

Let's also remember that patterns are not 2D but a 3D cone shape with the trailing end being the thinnest part with the least pellets. The smaller that trailing part of the pattern, the more in the "core". If your lead is correct, then you will maximize the number of pellets on target. "Spray and Pray" can work in limited us, but it is never as successful as a concentrated payload on a target; if it was folks would by using skeet chokes on turkeys and not the XXX-Full they tend to prefer.......

[PoorRichRichard]

jmr40 and FITASC, thank you, great info. The more I read about and shoot shotguns, the more addicting they become!!!

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

I don't know when manufactures decided to bored 410 barrels to 3" as my little Iver Johnson 410 a turn of the 19 th century shotgun originally shot 2-1/2 hulls only. Knowing that piece of info I took my shotgun to a store front Gunsmith and had my barrels chamber re-bored to accept 3". Shot load went from 1/2 oz to 3/4 oz. and that is a 50% increase in shot weight and doing that made my 410 a genuine 30 yard bunny thump-er.

[doofus47]

Wow you guys are great. I'm learning a whole lot about shot guns that I didn't know at all.

SHR970: doofus47: how many *'s on the barrel if any? The biggest problem with 410's to this day is that they are choked either FULL or MOD. based on the card wads used in the past. If you are lucky you have a *** barrel which means IC.

I just went and looked for any ** marks. I don't see any. I'll tear it down and see if there's a mark under the wood when I get a chance next weekend.

[SHR970]

Should be visible w/o taking wood off. Left side of barrel just forward of receiver. Or as I just learned it could also be a number in a box. link

[old roper]

I have Rem 1100 matched pair 28ga & .410 skeet set with the factory double gun case. I purchased them new and my set is low # and I've shot skeet with both.

[doofus47]

Winner! 3 in a box!

Shooting skeet with a 410 is impressive, old roper. More power to ya!