I need a better understanding of lead bullets .

[Metal god]

Good day sirs and or madams This topic is general to lead bullets but I'm loading for a 357 GP-100 6"

As I look through my multiple manuals the load data for lead bullets is truly all over the place . Some of the discrepancies are more understood then others . Like Hodgdon 158gr LSWC using HS-6 in 6gr to 7gr maxing out at 15,500CUP @ 1100fps while there 158gr XTP data starts at 28,000 CUP and tops out at 41,900 CUP . All that would seem to indicate that the lead data is designed to stay at or below 1100fps to reduce leading .


If you look at the Lyman data on a 158gr LRNFP it starts at like 9.0gr and tops out at 10.2 or so @ well over 1300fps . So I think to my self why does Lyman even have that hot a data for lead bullets if generally you don't want to push lead much faster then 1100fps ?


Then I start reading about swaged lead vs hard cast and Brinell hardness and how depending on the type , Brinell hardness , profile , swaged or hard cast . All will effect how hard you can push them and how much leading can be expected for a given bullet at certain speeds .

I'm more less an over kill kinda a guy . If it calls for a 4x4 I use a 4x6 type of thing . That makes me think I want the hardest lead cast bullets I can find , but do I really need that . My point there is I don't generally like having a bullet that must be neutered or it will cause you problems .

So Learn me about lead bullets please , I'm pretty much completely new to lead and really know very little so any help is good .

I bought some X-treme 38/357 158gr LRNFP that I heard were nice bullets . How ever after looking at there website I see that specific bullet is in there cowboy action selection and all those lead bullets have a Brinell hardness of 15 while all there other lead bullets outside of there cowboy action section have a Brinell hardness of 18 .

How much harder is 18 compared to 15 ?

What's considered hard , Brinell rating wise ? and what is considered soft and something you likely would not want to shoot ?

Is it true the harder the Brinell rating the faster you can shoot them with getting the leading problems ?

Any other info is welcome
Thanks Metal

[USSR]

Hi Metal,

Been casting and reloading for about 40 years, so will try to give you what little I know. First, improperly sized lead bullets (as in too small) are the primary cause of leading, not their hardness. Second, there is nothing magical about 1100fps. Many reloading manuals assume you will be using swaged lead bullets and keep their loads low in deference to that. Third, match your alloy to your intended load or gun. Unfortunately, the commercial casters have convinced a lot of guys that they need a really hard bullet. Many of them only offer bullets with a BHN of either 12 or 18. When Elmer Keith did his pioneering work with the then new .44 Magnum, he used cast bullets with a BHN of 11. So ask yourself, why on earth would you need an 18 BHN bullet for a typical magnum load? I cast a lot of hollowpoint bullets for 750 - 1000fps loads in .38 Special, .45 ACP, and .45 Colt, and use an alloy with a BHN of about 8.



Lastly, keep your tin content high and your antimony content low. This makes for a malleable alloy where the bullet obterates under pressure providing for a good seal while traversing the barrel and will usually not cause leading. The reason the commercial casters do the exact opposite and cast their bullets too hard is: antimony is cheap and tin is expensive, and their bullets hold up well in shipping. Hope that is of some help.

Don

[Scoits]

I buy all my lead bullets at the rate of 7 to 8 thousand a year. For the last 15/20 years have mainly used bullets from one company that have a 21+ BHI . Have pushed them to 1200 fpm [my chrony] over several different powders thru the years. Have gone to poly coated lead bullets about 5 years ago and never went back. Less dirt and smoke and able to increase fpm when I want. Shoot 357 mag and 44 mag.

[HiBC]

I'm no expert but I've had good luck with cast bullets....

I've bought,tried,and was disappointed by dead soft lead factory loads in 45 Colt and 44 Magnum.

I've had great luck with wheelweight.It works just fine in full power H-110 44 Magnum loads in my experience. We certainly exceeded 1100 fps,around 1300 would be right.

The general idea,as I understand it,cast gas checked bullets work just fine in rifles till you approach 2000 fps.I have very little experience there.I've donea fair amount of research on loading 30-40 Krag. Good accuracy wasclaimed to 1900 fps.

As I said,wheelweight hardness has been fine in any handgun load I've tried.
The lube can matter,I used the lube my buddy provided.I think it was Lyman.

I've had good luck with commercially cast boxes of 500 bullets from various suppliers.

IMO,the most critical factor is bullet fit. The bullet must seal. Gas jetting around a .001 undersize bullet will get you leading.Shoot for .001 over groove dia

[BBarn]

There are some good articles on cast bullets at the Los Angeles Silhouette Club website. And Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook is also a good resource.

[JeepHammer]

Interested!
I can make a 'Pretty' cast bullet, that's about it.

USSR, to define terms, when you write of 'Swaged' bullets do you mean die forming soft lead wire into bullet shape,
Or are you meaning diameter sizing of a cast bullet?

[jmorris]

Load data in general is “all over the place” because of all the variables that exist. There are lots of manuals that list different load data for the same powders (ie HP-38/W-231 or W-296/H110) for example.

I don’t own a Brinell hardness tester but I have found a relationship between hardness and weight that has worked for me for a long time. From the same mold, a 230 grain for example I can drop bullets from 240 grains all the way to 210 grains. The 210 grain ones are the hardest because they contain less lead and more of other alloys that are harder. Inversely the 240’s are the softest, because they are pure lead.

As far as how fast you can push them before they start leading badly, that too depends on a number of factors. Final diameter, lube or coating used, alloy, type of rifling, etc. If you can protect the pure lead core, even they won’t lead, one benefit of jackets and coatings.

That said I shoot pure lead balls out of my muzzle loaders all the time and lots of them north of 1800 fps, again there is a layer of protection in that bit of cloth between the ball and steel.

[USSR]

USSR, to define terms, when you write of 'Swaged' bullets do you mean die forming soft lead wire into bullet shape,
Or are you meaning diameter sizing of a cast bullet?

Yes, formed from lead wire. However, for the most part, they are not dead soft. Commercial manufacturers have heavy duty equipment and can form bullets from lead wire with a moderate amount of antimony in it. A cast bullet is a cast bullet regardless of whether you size it or not.

Don

[JeepHammer]

MG, if you think this is off top say so and others please ignore until I can remove it.

Does anyone have a common way to Remove tin, antimony etc?
There are 'Fluxes' that raise contaminants when casting aluminum, brass, iron etc. But I have no idea about lead...

[Carmady]

Here's some good info on leading.

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_7_Leading.htm

[USSR]

JeepHammer,

The best way to "lower" tin or antimony is to create an alloy by mixing a lot of pure or nearly pure lead in with your high tin or antimony alloy. The only reason I can think of to want to completely remove tin or antimony would be in regards to muzzle loading.

Don

[reddog81]

5 BHN is pure lead and used in muzzleloaders
8 is pretty soft and used for wadcutter bullets and very light loads.
10 to 12 would be good for normal 38 Special to 45 ACP velocities
14-16 is a good choice for Magnum loads
and 18+ is good for Magnum velocities and rifle loads

None of these numbers or ranges is an obsolete figure. The use of powder coat can mitigate some problems with using too hard or soft a bullet. Correct fit to the throat/barrel and the type of lube used on traditional lead bullets can also make a big impact on leading and accuracy.

[mikld]

For answers to just about any question regarding casting, loading and shooting lead bullets go here. The subforums cover all aspects of lead bullet shooting; http://castboolits.gunloads.com

I believe the use of hard bullets is a result from newer cast bullet loaders thinking "harder s better" and the commercial bullet casters giving them what they want (seasoned cast lead shooters most often cast their own). Also "hard cast" survives shipping and handling better. The term "hard cast" has become the term used for all cast bullets by newer users and can mean anything from 12 BHN to 22 BHN...

FWIW; I have used plain based bullets of around 11-12 BHN in my 44 Magnums to well over 1200 fps (much higher in my 20" carbine) and had very little to no leading, but the bullets fit the gun...

[Rifletom]

..."but the bullet fits the gun". This is key. I recently ordered and loaded up some Missouri bullets for my 1911-A1. 230 LRN, .452[and that is what they miked out to also], with an 18 BHN hardness. These worked rather well using 5.6gr BE-86 and OAL of 1.265". Like the OP, I don't really have a complete grasp of hardness with lead bullets, but, those Missouri bullets worked fine. Now, I'll go read that article at castboolits.

[Don Fischer]

All I shoot in handgun's for a lot of years has been cast from wheel weight's. Don't really know much about mixing. Did have a spell where I'd found some lino type and made bullet's from it for my handguns. Probably was pretty hard. Five or so yers go I got into casting for a couple rifle's, 30-06 and 308. Found date for both in Lee's book using reg rifle powder's, amazing how fast you can get a cast bullet going without leading the barrel. Also amazing how poor the shoot much above 1800fps!

I have used a lub sizer with handguns for years, never a leading problem. When I started rifle's I went to gas checked bullet's and tumble lube, no leading problem's. Then I got a hardness tester, lee and not sure if I'm working it right. I think it was 11 on the hardness scale for cast bullet's. Maybe about a year ago I started using powder coat on the rifle bullet's. No idea why I did as I didn't have leading problem's. I will say, if you do and put gas check's on the bullet's, put them on before powder coating, pain to get them on after. With the PC I still haven been able to get any leading! I will caution about gas checks, get it right the first time as if you need to pull the bullet's your gonna leave some gas checks in the case all by themselves! I have never cast a chamber, just get the mold for that cal and sizing die to cover it. I have never cast a chamber so probably couldn't do it if I wanted to. Something about PC is that the bullet grows a bit in dia doing it, hasn't caused a problem though. I have sized after pc and haven't seen a need to. But it will make your bullet a bit bigger around.

I suspect fewer people will start casting these days problem being hard to find free lead any more. I was luck and collected wheel weight's years ago so I have a life time supply for me. Probably in the neighborhood of 800#.

I haven't experimented with powder loads and the difference between them much. Problem being for me, the fast powder's used can probably get to fast in a hurry! I worry about experimenting with them. On the other hand in the Lee book it doesn't look like a problem at all using slower powder's, in rifles.

[T. O'Heir]

"...truly all over the place..." Manuals are like that. The reflect averages of results of loads tested with the exact components listed and under the conditions of the day of the test only. Usual differences will be mostly velocities.
Hodgdon's site, for example, says they tested using a 10" barrel(for who knows why) and magnum primers. So the velocities cannot be met with your 6" barrel. The unnecessary magnum primers(they have nothing whatever to do with the cartridge. They're about the powders used.) can cause the pressures to be higher. Not enough to worry about though. Doesn't mean the data is bad or unsafe though.
Leading is caused by trying to drive a cast bullet, regardless of its hardness, too fast. Your best bet is to buy a copy of Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook.
Powder coat is nothing more than baked on paint.
The term "hard cast" is mostly marketing. A cast bullet doesn't need to be hardened to be devastatingly effective.
Cast is cast. Melted lead poured into a mold. A swaged bullet is a pure lead bullet formed in a die. Swaged bullets tend to be more accurate than cast. Wheel weight's are alloys usually with a lot of contaminates in 'em. They're getting more difficult to come by these days as lead is being phased out. Linotype is a load alloy that used to be used in the printing industry. Long gone now.

[Real Gun]

In 357 Magnum I had better luck with leading using Missouri's "cowboy" bullets, Brinell 12, than I had with the "Action" bullets at 15-18.

I have learned to avoid early peaking in pressure that occurs with faster powders running pretty hot. Even Unique has been troublesome, so the medium-slow powders work better for me, especially AA#9 and A2400. In larger calibers I do better to go all in with IMR 4227, even compressed. The slow magnum powders like A4100/Enforcer, H110/W296, and 300-MP work better for jacketed because they need to be loaded at or near max. IMR4227 is pretty forgiving on range of powder weight but doesn't run clean until a full load.

A given here is that I have cylinder throats that accept the bullet diameter without much force. A number of guns needed to be reamed to reduce pressure. It seems that the pressure is what gets you, given good bullet fit, and too hot a fire with pressure peaking too early can blow around the bullet base, even cook off coating.

With lube I can't say except the longer barrels will probably show that the bullet ran out of lube toward the muzzle, if all isn't just right. That part is not as hard to clean in my experience.

[Grey_Lion]

2 ways you can reduce leading - either a gas-check which you want to make sure your cast mold will allow for, or go into powder-coating your lead - something I plan to get into this winter.

There are dies out there to make your own gas checks out of copper strip or aluminum gutter metal - some even do it using aluminum cans but most say that material is too thin to make any sort of effective gas check out of.

To eliminate leading you'll need jackets - I make my own from 9mm brass and produce my own hollow-points - I just bought a Walnut Hill swage press and some CH4D dies to start making my own soft nose jacketed rounds - going to get into that once this TX summer passes and my garage stops being a 130 degree oven...... warning from experience - don't swage on a non-swage press - you'll break the press - I broke my rock chucker recently.

here's a link to my swaged rounds - attachmentid=107401&d=1524617263"]https://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=107401&d=1524617263[/URL]

[Dufus]

You can gas check almost any bullet whether or not the bullet is built for one.

I use plain base gas checks on the bullets that are not for the crimp on gas checks. They work just as dandy as any of them do.

AND, those aluminum ones as just as good as the copper ones.

Check out Sage's Outdoors and see what they have. If they don't have what you want, send them a message and they will make them for you.

https://www.sagesoutdoors.com/

[Bimus]

Speer and Hornady make and sale cast bullets these bullets have no lube and are a good place to start reloading cast you can use there loads and check the hardness of there lead with your finger nail and find out what you really need .

[dahermit]

Powder coat is nothing more than baked on paint.

That is not to say you can take any old paint and bake it on. Powder coatings are either polymers or epoxies that are reduced to powders that adhere to the metal via static electricity. Calling powder coating "baked on paint" is an over-simplification and not entirely accurate.
Get the latest information about powder coating cast lead bullets here:http://castboolits.gunloads.com/

[Metal god]

Thanks guys lots of good info here . I've been following the thread all day but only had time to respond now .

A given here is that I have cylinder throats that accept the bullet diameter without much force. A number of guns needed to be reamed to reduce pressure. It seems that the pressure is what gets you, given good bullet fit, and too hot a fire with pressure peaking too early can blow around the bullet base, even cook off coating.

Slugging the bore , I don't have the ability to "slug" my bore but I do have some Cerrosafe I've used when casting my AR chambers . I can use that to cast my forcing cone and the first inch or two of my bore . The problem with that stuff is it continues to expand over time so I'll need to get the measurements quickly . Is there anything laying around the house I can use like candle wax or something ??

In 357 Magnum I had better luck with leading using Missouri's "cowboy" bullets, Brinell 12, than I had with the "Action" bullets at 15-18.

Does a softer bullet work better in a less optimal bullet to bore diameter because the softer lead will swage better to the bore where as a harder bullet will allow gaps to remain ?

You can gas check almost any bullet whether or not the bullet is built for one.

Gas checks , I've seen them talked about and have a general understanding of them but how do you load them on a bullet ? Can they go on any commercial lead bullet or does the check need to be installed when casting your own ?

5 BHN is pure lead and used in muzzleloaders
8 is pretty soft and used for wadcutter bullets and very light loads.
10 to 12 would be good for normal 38 Special to 45 ACP velocities
14-16 is a good choice for Magnum loads
and 18+ is good for Magnum velocities and rifle loads

I'm glad 15 Brinell is considered hard . I actually went to the range today and shoot some reloads in the new gun . One of those was using the 158gr LRNFP from X-treme bullets . I only shot 6 different loads using HP-38 and 4.0gr shot one little ragged hole at 15yds so that's the nice light plinking load I'll use . The funny thing is I had always been planning on using HS-6 but of the three different sets of components I used today HS-6 was not included in any of them . I used HP-38 for the 158gr lead , CFE pistol for the 125gr XTP and A2400 for the 180gr XTP which were full power loads that really thumped . I will say the CFE pistol loads seem to heat up my cylinder more then the other powders so that may not be a good powder for lead if it burns hot like Titegroup does . I think next time I will try 158gr LRNFP with some HS-6 and push them harder then 7gr ( working up of course ) and see how those do .

[Real Gun]

Quote:

Slugging the bore , I don't have the ability to "slug" my bore but I do have some Cerrosafe I've used when casting my AR chambers . I can use that to cast my forcing cone and the first inch or two of my bore . The problem with that stuff is it continues to expand over time so I'll need to get the measurements quickly . Is there anything laying around the house I can use like candle wax or something ??

I learned how to make slugs from YouTube. The basics are fishing weights and a cut brass case used for a mold. I had to buy a little torch.

Quote:

Does a softer bullet work better in a less optimal bullet to bore diameter because the softer lead will swage better to the bore where as a harder bullet will allow gaps to remain ?

I couldn't say, but the bore is not smooth, so even a good fit requires the bullet to conform to both lands and grooves.

Quote:

Gas checks , I've seen them talked about and have a general understanding of them but how do you load them on a bullet ? Can they go on any commercial lead bullet or does the check need to be installed when casting your own ?

My gas checks will not stay on a bevel-based bullet, since there is nothing for it to grip. To install a gas check you need a sizing die, which you will want anyway when commercial bullet sizes trend a bit high in diameter.

Quote:

<snip>The funny thing is I had always been planning on using HS-6 but of the three different sets of components I used today HS-6 was not included in any of them . I used HP-38 for the 158gr lead , CFE pistol for the 125gr XTP and A2400 for the 180gr XTP which were full power loads that really thumped . I will say the CFE pistol loads seem to heat up my cylinder more then the other powders so that may not be a good powder for lead if it burns hot like Titegroup does . I think next time I will try 158gr LRNFP with some HS-6 and push them harder then 7gr ( working up of course ) and see how those do .

I use HS-6 with lead Xtreme SWC, but will note that it leaves unburned powder and cleans up better with magnum primers.

[jmorris]

Powder coat is nothing more than baked on paint.

Anyone that has ever tried to remove paint and powder coating from a surface knows there is a substantial difference in durability between the two.

In any case there are other coatings out there that you can melt all the lead inside them and they will contain it until you poke a hole in the coating.

This is one of my Hi-tek coated bullets.

[mikld]

Lots of lengthy replies, but the basics for reloading lead is make sure the bullets fit your gun properly ( for revolvers; same diameter as cylinder throats. For semi-autos; .002+ larger than groove diameter as a start, as long as the cartridge chambers.). Bullets need to be soft enough to obturate to seal the barrel...