5.56 accuracy load help - Page 2

**Unclenick** · February 24, 2019, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t. O'Heir

26.5 grains of CFE 223 is 1.5 grains above the current Max load given by Hodgdon.

He's got a Wylde chamber which is wider at the base and shoulder and has about 0.037" longer freebore than the SAAMI test barrel chamber used in Hodgdon's testing, so his maximum may very well be OK for him.

Std7mag,

I find two descriptions at Sierra. One in this article and the other in this other article. Both seem to describe the Audette Ladder, but with some refinement by adding seating depth development. I note that one describes always starting development with a jammed bullet and moving it back later. It assumes you have already figured out your maximum load for the jammed configuration. Jamming can raise pressure about 20% so figure that you'll have something on the order of 10% less powder than a maximum developed with the bullet jumping 0.030" or more (for a Spitzer nose bullet; more for a round nose).

This is a good read on the Audette ladder, too.

NWPilgrim · February 24, 2019, 03:29 PM

Just to give you some ideas...

My three best loads for .223 75-77 gr bullets shoot better for me than Federal GMM 77 gr SMK, and in order of accuracy:
1) Varget at 23.0-23.2 gr (depending on bullet and rifle)

2) IMR 8208XBR at 23.2 gr

3) CFE223 at 23.8 gr

The Varget and CFE are all below book max for 5.56 and the XBR is very close to max depending on source. All are load to 2.250”.

HiBC · February 24, 2019, 05:08 PM

TOH:

Quote:

..0.6” shouldn’t be out of reach..." Unlikely unless you have a match grade barrel and those HPBT's are match grade bullets.

The OP said he has a 1 in 8 WOA upper.

I suggest yuo look up White Oak Armament. I'm thinking maybe a match or two has been won with WOA.

That 75 gr Hornady bthp.bullet is what Federal loads in Gold Medal Match.

Black Hills loads them for Match ammo. Oh yeah.Hornady calls them a match bullet.

In my experience,Hprnady sels 600 ct pkgs of those bullets for a relatively reasonable price,and availability is usually good.

I realize advertised Ballistic Coeffcients can be a few ponts optimistic acorss the board,but that 75 gr Hornady is advertised with a better BC than SMKs and Nos CC's.

Having said that,I have no data or proof.My seat of the pants sense tells me something about the SMK ,and probably the Nosler CC,,...I'm thinking its the ogive...They just seem to be friendlier to shooting very well.I suggest they might be at some "sweet spot" that is better at finding its way through the throat and leade...or maybe its boat tail config..I don't know.Longer cylindrical body?

As said,its unfounded hunch.I think its easy to make a SMK shoot.with less fiddling around Forgiving might be the word.

OP,I've noticed brushing out the necks with a nylon bore brush can be seen on target.RCBS sells a handle with a threaded hole.

Someone I know works with military fine tuning. Depends on the recipe,but in some cases,with 5.56 a Magnum primer and a light collet crimp give best results. I mostly use CCI and Win primers,I don't know Rem code,is a Rem 7 1/2 a fairly hot BR small rifle primer? Seems he said those tested well.

**Unclenick** · February 24, 2019, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiBC

That 75 gr Hornady bthp.bullet is what Federal loads in Gold Medal Match.

There are only three 223 Rem Federal Gold Medal match loads currently, two use Sierra bullets (69 and 77-grain) and one uses a Berger bullet (73 grain). I don't believe Hornady has ever been in the picture for the GM line. I see five loaded with Berger bullets and all the rest use Sierra.

1100 tac · February 24, 2019, 06:06 PM

24.8 Rx 15, 69 SMK, GM205MAR.

hounddawg · February 24, 2019, 06:28 PM

WOA uses Wilson barrels I believe

std7mag · February 24, 2019, 06:31 PM

Unclenick,
I use the first article you referenced, minus the jam.
I know in most of my rifles that they seem to like about 0.020" off the lands for most cup & core bullets.
Berger VLD being the exception.
Even the ELDX, ABLR seem to like the slight setback.

9MMand223only · February 24, 2019, 06:50 PM

Here is some help using almost same exact Barrel as you. WOA, 20" 1:8
These are all Hornady 75 Grain match like you are using. Notice the CFE 223 isn't competitive in the accuracy contest?

HTML Code:

Powder Brand	Rating 1-10	Primer Brand	Powder Load	Bullet Brand	Bullet Grain	OAL	Avg FPS	Group Size	MOA	Power Factor	Energy	How many bullets each string	Gun
Norma 203B		Rem 7 1/2	24.3	Hornady BTHP	75	2.255	2761	0.23	0.44	207.09	1,269.43	5	WOA 20" 1:8
RE15		Rem 7 1/2	24	Hornady BTHP	75	2.255	2620	0.27	0.52	196.46	1,142.49	5	WOA 20" 1:8
TAC		Rem 7 1/2	24.5	Hornady BTHP	75	2.255	2833	0.29	0.55	212.49	1,336.50	5	WOA 20" 1:8
RE15		Rem 7 1/2	24	Hornady BTHP	75	2.255	2654	0.29	0.55	199.01	1,172.34	5	WOA 20" 1:8
Varget		Rem 7 1/2	24.5	Hornady BTHP	75	2.255	2768	0.3	0.57	207.59	1,275.51	5	WOA 20" 1:8
TAC		Rem 7 1/2	24.6	Hornady BTHP	75	2.255	2862	0.33	0.63	214.62	1,363.43	5	WOA 20" 1:8
N140		Rem 7 1/2	24.5	Hornady BTHP	75	2.255	2745	0.33	0.63	205.91	1,254.95	5	WOA 20" 1:8
TAC		Rem 7 1/2	24	Hornady BTHP	75	2.255	2782	0.334	0.64	208.65	1,288.63	5	WOA 20" 1:8
Norma 203B		Rem 7 1/2	24.7	Hornady BTHP	75	2.255	2807	0.34	0.65	210.53	1,311.90	5	WOA 20" 1:8
TAC		Rem 7 1/2	24	Hornady BTHP	75	2.255	2797	0.35	0.67	209.76	1,302.38	5	WOA 20" 1:8
RE15		Rem 7 1/2	24.5	Hornady BTHP	75	2.255	2734	0.35	0.67	205.08	1,244.91	5	WOA 20" 1:8
XBR8208		Rem 7 1/2	23.2	Hornady BTHP	75	2.255	2731	0.35	0.67	204.80	1,241.45	5	WOA 20" 1:8
CFE223		Rem 7 1/2	25.1	Hornady BTHP	75	2.255	2656	0.35	0.67	199.22	1,174.73	5	WOA 20" 1:8
XBR8208		Rem 7 1/2	23.4	Hornady BTHP	75	2.255	2762	0.364	0.70	207.15	1,270.17	5	WOA 20" 1:8
RE15		Rem 7 1/2	24.3	Hornady BTHP	75	2.255	2715	0.38	0.73	203.66	1,227.67	5	WOA 20" 1:8
XBR8208		Rem 7 1/2	23.8	Hornady BTHP	75	2.255	2792	0.38	0.73	209.37	1,297.54	5	WOA 20" 1:8
Norma 203B		Rem 7 1/2	24.3	Hornady BTHP	75	2.255	2730	0.387	0.74	204.75	1,240.91	5	WOA 20" 1:8
Norma 203B		Rem 7 1/2	24.7	Hornady BTHP	75	2.255	2787	0.387	0.74	209.04	1,293.45	5	WOA 20" 1:8
Varget		Rem 7 1/2	24	Hornady BTHP	75	2.255	2638	0.4	0.76	197.87	1,158.86	5	WOA 20" 1:8
Varget		Rem 7 1/2	25	Hornady BTHP	75	2.255	2771	0.4	0.76	207.80	1,278.09	5	WOA 20" 1:8
RE15		Rem 7 1/2	24.2	Hornady BTHP	75	2.255	2667	0.4	0.76	200.06	1,184.65	5	WOA 20" 1:8
RE15		Rem 7 1/2	24.7	Hornady BTHP	75	2.255	2691	0.4	0.76	201.86	1,206.07	5	WOA 20" 1:8
Varget		Rem 7 1/2	24.2	Hornady BTHP	75	2.255	2682	0.43	0.82	201.14	1,197.48	5	WOA 20" 1:8
CFE223		Rem 7 1/2	24.5	Hornady BTHP	75	2.255	2623	0.47	0.90	196.70	1,145.19	5	WOA 20" 1:8
RE15		Rem 7 1/2	24.9	Hornady BTHP	75	2.255	2771	0.472	0.90	207.83	1,278.46	5	WOA 20" 1:8
Varget		Rem 7 1/2	24.8	Hornady BTHP	75	2.255	2771	0.49	0.94	207.86	1,278.83	5	WOA 20" 1:8
N135		Rem 7 1/2	23.5	Hornady BTHP	75	2.255	2789	0.5	0.96	209.15	1,294.75	5	WOA 20" 1:8

The headers are all messed up. But group size is below the word "GRAIN". its in MOA.

I can tell you, without a shadow of a doubt, NORMA 203B, Varget, RE15 and TAC I think are all better. XBR8208 is popular too.

HiBC · February 24, 2019, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiBC
That 75 gr Hornady bthp.bullet is what Federal loads in Gold Medal Match.
There are only three 223 Rem Federal Gold Medal match loads currently, two use Sierra bullets (69 and 77-grain) and one uses a Berger bullet (73 grain). I don't believe Hornady has ever been in the picture for the GM line. I see five loaded with Berger bullets and all the rest use Sierra.

Fair enough,UncleNick! Thank you for setting me straight.

We can't be right ALL the time.!! :-)

Stats Shooter · February 24, 2019, 10:43 PM

Hornady flat out recommends. 020" jump for their bthp's and eld x/m.

Then with varget I found best groups @ 2750 fps. this was bear 23.4 gr.

Discount accordingly, but it works for me in 1/9 twist, 1/8 twist, and 1/7 twist barrels.

**Unclenick** · February 25, 2019, 01:59 PM

0.020" off the lands is a commonly employed number, but it's not magic. The late Dan Hackett (a noted benchrest competitor) described in the 1995 Precision Shooting Reloading Manual how he had a 40X in 220 Swift that he could not get to shoot 5-shot groups below an average of 1/2", with 3/8" inch being the best groups it produced. He seated the bullets 0.020" off the lands because conventional wisdom said to. Then one day, when switching to a Nosler bullet from one with 0.015" shorter ogive bullet, he accidentally turned his seating die micrometer in instead of out, putting the bullets 0.050" off the lands. He didn't notice until he had 20 rounds loaded. He debated pulling and reseating the bullets, but decided just to shoot the 20 up in practice. To his amazement, the four resulting 5-shot groups consisted of two 1/4" groups and two more that were true bugholes in the 1's.

Mid Tompkins uses soft seating for all bullets, so all of his are fired jammed into the lands. Presumably, he rejects any bullet that doesn't work well that way, but I would not have any idea how many that turns out to be. He's done a lot of technical experimenting in the past.

The above are examples of the reason Sierra's recommends doing what Berger recommended for their secant ogive VLD's—first develop the load with the bullet jammed into the lands (worst case for pressure) and then set the bullets back incrementally while looking for the smallest group. With tangent ogive bullets you usually find something between 0.010" and 0.030" off the lands, but as Hacket demonstrated, not always. And often there can be a second seating depth sweet spot further back. For secant ogive bullets, VLD or not, the depth tuning is more critical. Typically, secant ogives first meet rifling at the groove diameter, while tangent ogives first meet the rifling at the bore diameter. This helps center the tangent ogives a bit better. It is the reason Berger has changed its VLD's over to a hybrid ogive design that is tangent at the shoulder and converts over to the lower drag secant ogive form after getting safely below bore diameter.

Anyway, experimentation is key. You can make most modern bullets shoot pretty well without too much fuss being involved. It's when you try to squeeze the last little bit of group size out that you wind up learning what the gun prefers most, and sometimes it is surprising and seems to defy logic.

hounddawg · February 25, 2019, 02:17 PM

can't never tell on seating

**Unclenick** · February 25, 2019, 02:22 PM

Yep. 0.075" jump looks like getting the job done there.

hounddawg · February 25, 2019, 03:02 PM

with a gas gun you don't have a lot of room to play with seating but slight changes in powder brand and load accomplish the same thing. You just gotta find what the barrel likes and they all seem to be slightly different

February 24, 2019, 06:28 PM	#31
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	WOA uses Wilson barrels I believe __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek

February 24, 2019, 06:31 PM	#32
std7mag Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2013 Location: Central Taxylvania.. Posts: 3,609	Unclenick, I use the first article you referenced, minus the jam. I know in most of my rifles that they seem to like about 0.020" off the lands for most cup & core bullets. Berger VLD being the exception. Even the ELDX, ABLR seem to like the slight setback. __________________ When our own government declares itself as "tyrannical", where does that leave us??!! "Januarary 6th insurrection". Funny, I didn't see a single piece of rope...

February 25, 2019, 01:59 PM	#36
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	0.020" off the lands is a commonly employed number, but it's not magic. The late Dan Hackett (a noted benchrest competitor) described in the 1995 Precision Shooting Reloading Manual how he had a 40X in 220 Swift that he could not get to shoot 5-shot groups below an average of 1/2", with 3/8" inch being the best groups it produced. He seated the bullets 0.020" off the lands because conventional wisdom said to. Then one day, when switching to a Nosler bullet from one with 0.015" shorter ogive bullet, he accidentally turned his seating die micrometer in instead of out, putting the bullets 0.050" off the lands. He didn't notice until he had 20 rounds loaded. He debated pulling and reseating the bullets, but decided just to shoot the 20 up in practice. To his amazement, the four resulting 5-shot groups consisted of two 1/4" groups and two more that were true bugholes in the 1's. Mid Tompkins uses soft seating for all bullets, so all of his are fired jammed into the lands. Presumably, he rejects any bullet that doesn't work well that way, but I would not have any idea how many that turns out to be. He's done a lot of technical experimenting in the past. The above are examples of the reason Sierra's recommends doing what Berger recommended for their secant ogive VLD's—first develop the load with the bullet jammed into the lands (worst case for pressure) and then set the bullets back incrementally while looking for the smallest group. With tangent ogive bullets you usually find something between 0.010" and 0.030" off the lands, but as Hacket demonstrated, not always. And often there can be a second seating depth sweet spot further back. For secant ogive bullets, VLD or not, the depth tuning is more critical. Typically, secant ogives first meet rifling at the groove diameter, while tangent ogives first meet the rifling at the bore diameter. This helps center the tangent ogives a bit better. It is the reason Berger has changed its VLD's over to a hybrid ogive design that is tangent at the shoulder and converts over to the lower drag secant ogive form after getting safely below bore diameter. Anyway, experimentation is key. You can make most modern bullets shoot pretty well without too much fuss being involved. It's when you try to squeeze the last little bit of group size out that you wind up learning what the gun prefers most, and sometimes it is surprising and seems to defy logic. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

February 25, 2019, 02:22 PM	#38
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Yep. 0.075" jump looks like getting the job done there. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

February 25, 2019, 03:02 PM	#39
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	with a gas gun you don't have a lot of room to play with seating but slight changes in powder brand and load accomplish the same thing. You just gotta find what the barrel likes and they all seem to be slightly different __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek

February 24, 2019, 03:29 PM	#27
NWPilgrim Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2008 Location: Oregon Posts: 2,346	Just to give you some ideas... My three best loads for .223 75-77 gr bullets shoot better for me than Federal GMM 77 gr SMK, and in order of accuracy: 1) Varget at 23.0-23.2 gr (depending on bullet and rifle) 2) IMR 8208XBR at 23.2 gr 3) CFE223 at 23.8 gr The Varget and CFE are all below book max for 5.56 and the XBR is very close to max depending on source. All are load to 2.250”.

February 24, 2019, 06:06 PM	#30
1100 tac Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2012 Posts: 299	24.8 Rx 15, 69 SMK, GM205MAR.

February 24, 2019, 10:43 PM	#35
Stats Shooter Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 2016 Location: North Dakota Posts: 1,636	Hornady flat out recommends. 020" jump for their bthp's and eld x/m. Then with varget I found best groups @ 2750 fps. this was bear 23.4 gr. Discount accordingly, but it works for me in 1/9 twist, 1/8 twist, and 1/7 twist barrels.