Primed 40 S&W Cases - New Brass - Iffy Primers

[markr6754]

Came across a possible deal that comes with a caveat.

https://www.evergladesammo.com/brass...ce-1000ct.html

The brass is new, the primers are installed, the primers may be 90% effective. With a primer there's no way to know which may be defective. Everglades claims their testing showed about 10% failed to ignite.

For someone looking desperately for both primers and new brass for plinking/load development (like me) these could be right up your ally. I was trying to pick up some once fired 40S&W brass when I encountered these. I've ordered 2000 of them If nothing else I got new brass at a reasonable cost.

[Unclenick]

As long as you don't mind investing in pulling down the duds, it makes for good practice seeing that your sights alignment stays put when the hammer falls on a bad one. My main concern would be that my firing pin wasn't striking less energetically than the one they used in their test, as then I might well have a higher misfire percentage.

[markr6754]

Originally Posted by Unclenick

As long as you don't mind investing in pulling down the duds, it makes for good practice seeing that your sights alignment stays put when the hammer falls on a bad one. My main concern would be that my firing pin wasn't striking less energetically than the one they used in their test, as then I might well have a higher misfire percentage.

Luckily, I have 2 40s. The Beretta PX4 definitely strikes harder than my Springfield EMP, so any that fail to lite off in the EMP I’ll try again in the PX4. And sure...with winter coming I’ll have a lot more time to deconstruct failed rounds and reuse the components. Thankfully these will all be my loads, so there’s no risk of guessing wrong on the powder.

[Nick_C_S]

Wow, a 10% failure rate. That's crappy. I can't even imagine how that even happens. Save for my race revolver with light springs, I have never had a primer fail to ignite. Been loading 36 years, so we're talking a couple 100K or so. If you're okay with it; I guess it's okay.

I pulled up the link. I'm curious what the back story is that has caused such a high failure rate. I'm also wondering if you gave them another seating if it would help (??).

Years ago, I bought some "clearance item" lead 158 SWC's (for 38 Spl) from Everglades. The price was right, but they still didn't meet expectations. Undersized diameter. I still have most of them- need to be melted.

Just so you know, I buy a lot of stuff from Everglades - I am very pleased with most of their products.

[markr6754]

I look at it quite differently. I needed 40 S&W. I failed to find in stock once fired for the last 2 months. New brass is $0.28 to $0.46 per case. So I bought 2000 primed cases that with shipping cost less than 30% less than 1000 new cases...and they still have perhaps 1800 viable primers.
As I stated, my end use is plinking. If I have to pull, over the course of many range outings, 200 or so bullets, I’m okay with that. If I were given 2000 primers for free, and someone told me they may not have been stored properly, I’ll load and shoot them too! I have multiple thousands of good primers to use for mission critical applications.
Also a big fan of Everglades products. Never a disappointment with them. I was on their site looking for projectiles when I decided to check out their brass page, since no one else has had any once fired in stock.

[Nick_C_S]

I look at it quite differently.

Yes, I understand. I was neither encouraging it, nor discouraging it. We all work within our own situations. No matter what, you'll be getting new brass to load for years to come.

I dread pulling bullets. Howerver, semi-auto's aren't as difficult to pull as roll-crimped revolver rounds. I'm a revolver guy and that's what I've pulled the most of - hence, the "dread."

[jetinteriorguy]

I would reseat the primers just in case the problem is improperly seated primers.

[Unclenick]

You could probably just put them in a hand priming tool and push very firmly. See if that clears up the dud situation.

[markr6754]

Originally Posted by Nick_C_S

I dread pulling bullets. Howerver, semi-auto's aren't as difficult to pull as roll-crimped revolver rounds. I'm a revolver guy and that's what I've pulled the most of - hence, the "dread."

I have the Hornady Cam Lock bullet puller, which makes deconstruction pretty simple, except for 40 S&W, takes more work to line things up due to the .410 collet.

I bought, but have yet to install the Frankford Arsenal Pile Driver bullet puller, which would greatly simplify bulk bullet pulling. It may prove useful in this instance.

I’ve tried to imagine what could produce a 10% failure rate in new primers, and come up blank. However, I can easily imagine a flawed seating process that leaves the primers just short of flush, and so a quick run through my FA Perfect Seat Hand Primer may save some shooting frustration.

[Grant 14]

Maybe I missed it, but I wonder what brand of primer they are?? Grant.

[Marco Califo]

It would be cheap brass, for the trouble of depriming it. I would toss the primers, but that is easy for me to say, because I have a couple thousand SPP.

[Shane Tuttle]

Personally speaking, I'm not keen on dealing with a failed primer. It sets yourself up for an accident at the range. That, and I've never heard of Jagemann.

Hard pass.

[Marco Califo]

Jagemann is European. I see it listed in places like Vv. and Norma loaded data.

[markr6754]

Originally Posted by Marco Califo

Jagemann is European. I see it listed in places like Vv. and Norma loaded data.

Well, maybe the family origins are. Jagemann is a privately held, 64 year old American company from Wisconsin.

JAGEMANN™ SPORTING GROUP
A PREMIUM U.S. BRASS MANUFACTURER BACKED BY MORE THAN SIXTY YEARS OF QUALITY, TRUSTED METAL STAMPING EXPERIENCE

[Marco Califo]

Shooters World data uses Jagemann brass. Shooters World powders are made by Lovex.
Lovex data uses S&B brass. So, now I am clear as mud.

[LE-28]

I'd be tempted to load a hundred and try them and try them in your Beretta. Then you will know for sure.
I still have close to 30k of spp but I'm not the type to waste a good primer.

[markr6754]

Originally Posted by LE-28

I'd be tempted to load a hundred and try them and try them in your Beretta. Then you will know for sure.
I still have close to 30k of spp but I'm not the type to waste a good primer.

I plan to start out a bit slower than that. My plan is build 2 equivalent ladders, the first with primers reseated via FA Perfect Prime hand primer, and one with primers as received. Compare results of each ladder. Should the best result follow the ladder with reseated primers I’ll proceed to pass all remaining cases through the Perfect Prime. If no difference, then I’ll continue to reserve these primed cases for load development and testing.
First hurdle is moving the order from “Processing” to “Shipped”.

[markr6754]

Received my 2000 primed cases yesterday. Bulk packed in boxes of 1,000. Brass looks fine, saddened to discover that all of the primers are well seated. I ran 150 cases through my priming ram yesterday, and not a one budged. So whatever the problem is that may produce 10% failure to ignite, it isn’t high primers.
Found one case that wouldn’t expand. Tried twice before looking at it closely...it’s a shorty! Pulled the primer and put the case in the recycle jar.
At least I got a good look at the flash hole. Very nice, well centered and clean puka with no rough edges.

Loaded 30 round ladder to test CFE-Pistol with my 135gr Sinterfire bullets. First time using new brass in 40 S&W...felt really nice and smooth. Might be the last time I have to buy brass.

[markr6754]

I made it to the range to test my first ladder...135gr Sinterfire frangible bullets with CFE-Pistol powder. It was an interesting experience, made all the worst as I don't have a chronograph, and I'm shooting indoors. I have 2 pistols in 40 S&W, a Springfield Armory EMP 3" barrel, and a Beretta PX4 Storm 4" barrel. This was my first test of CFE-Pistol with the 135gr Sinterfire. I made up 10 rounds each with 4.9gr, 5.1gr, and 5.3gr, all on the low side for a 180gr projectile (the 135gr SF bullet is longer than traditional 180gr projectiles). I then shot 5 of each, low to high, from each pistol. During the case prep, I attempted to reseat each primer on the press (Hornady LNL Classic Single Stage). I detected no movement of the primers.



Without all the boring details:



Springfield EMP - the loads were quite soft, and I experienced multiple primer failures, 4 out of 5 failing primers fired on the 2nd or even 3rd strike of the hammer. Good malfunction clearance practice. One round endured 5 strikes without igniting...I'd even turned the round in the magazine and tried to fire it again. Happily, the pistol seemed to like getting rid of the last round, as it locked back the slide each time. In the end, 14 of 15 rounds fired, eventually, in the EMP. Sadly, there's no way to distinguish when a primer will ignite beforehand.



Here's where it gets interesting...



Beretta PX4 Storm - every round fired without issue. 16 of 16...the extra being the round that refused to fire in the SA EMP. There were no repeat strikes...every primer ignited on the first attempt. Now, the loads felt even softer firing out of the Beretta, and I had multiple failures to eject/load, whereas I had none of these problems in the SA EMP.



The problem with the SA EMP is one I've experienced since I purchased the gun. Light Primer Strikes, even shooting factory ammo. However, these primers looked like they were getting a solid strike...nice, deep indentations, yet they failed at a higher than expected rate, while the same rounds in the Beretta PX4 Storm had no ignition problems at all.



All in all, quite the interesting outing, but I need to develop a new ladder, perhaps starting at 5.4gr or 5.5 gr and working up.

[Unclenick]

Sounds like firing them from the Beretta is the way to go on the first pass. Beretta may have based their firing pin energy on the military spec they use in the 92s. I don't know, but more energy is more energy and seems to be what your primers are getting from it and need.

The light bullet will offer a lot less inertial resistance for the powder to build pressure against, so the light load behavior is not unexpected. But you are right to be cautious with the deep-seating bullets and work up slowly.

[markr6754]

Originally Posted by Unclenick

Sounds like firing them from the Beretta is the way to go on the first pass. Beretta may have based their firing pin energy on the military spec they use in the 92s. I don't know, but more energy is more energy and seems to be what your primers are getting from it and need.

The light bullet will offer a lot less inertial resistance for the powder to build pressure against, so the light load behavior is not unexpected. But you are right to be cautious with the deep-seating bullets and work up slowly.

Trigger and safety appear to be the same as the 92FS...which was my first firearms purchase in 1994 and still going strong.

I'm not quite convinced that these primers are good to go in the PX4. I'll be delighted if they are, but more testing is necessary. Running 16 rounds through without a failure is still within the range of expected outcomes for a 10% failure rate. Once I've run at least 100 rounds through successively I'll consider them good to go for more than plinking...in the PX4.

Regardless, I still got free primers with my less than 1/2 price new brass. That's the bonus. I only found this deal because I'd failed to obtain once fired brass from any source. With 2000 cases, I'll be generating my own hoard of once-fired 40 S&W.

[jetinteriorguy]

Even though the indentations look deep enough, perhaps the firing pin is striking at a lower velocity just more or less pushing in the dent as opposed to striking with a good solid strike creating a more instantaneous pressure thus igniting them.

[Don P]

I don't see the problem here. Everglades is up front about the primer issue and they state the brass is new. As stated good for practice having unknown dudes in the mix.
Starline brass is $163 per 1,000 so IMO this sin't a bad deal
https://www.starlinebrass.com/40-sw-brass