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May 3, 2012, 05:20 PM | #1 |
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84 rounds fired at murderer, 14 hits and he's still alive:
Check out this story from John Farnam's web site and maybe think about your choice of home defense weapon.
And about your skills. I'm going to the range a little more. http://defense-training.com/quips/25Apr12.html
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May 3, 2012, 05:30 PM | #2 |
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Yep, a rifle sure would have came in handy
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May 3, 2012, 05:45 PM | #3 |
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A 16% hit rate. Not bad I suppose for the average cop .Some departments are more concerned with community relations than intensive training .Ten years ago a study of hit probability in the NYPD in actual shootouts it was 10% !! But in the revolver days it was 20% !! So rapid fire is still done rather than aimed fire .
BTW, some years back I took Farnam's course . It was fantastic and I was amazed at how much I didn't know . I only wish I could persuade more shooters the importance of really good training.
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May 3, 2012, 05:53 PM | #4 |
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Cant be a true story... everyone knows anyone shot by the ultimate 2 x 4 gun falls dead prior to the round even being fired.
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May 3, 2012, 06:26 PM | #5 |
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Crud, I use the same setup the NYPD does: Glock 19 with 124 gr. 9mm +p Speer Gold Dots. I'm suddenly feeling less adequate.
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May 3, 2012, 06:39 PM | #6 |
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I think it was Clint Smith, of Thunder Ranch, who put it well.
When he was asked what would he consider the best choice for effective fire power, he replied, "An Air Strike."
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Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.” |
May 3, 2012, 06:46 PM | #7 |
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I'm sure Jeff Cooper is looking down saying, "I tried to tell ya!"
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May 3, 2012, 06:50 PM | #8 | |||
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I got a hunting buddy that gives me crap about not using enough gun on hogs. Of course, he always used enough gun, or maybe not. Shooting 12ga slug at a deer is enough gun, right? Of course it is, except when you actually miss the target and shoot the feeder instead. How much is enough gun for a miss?
I am not sure that the officers using "enough gun" would have changed things dramatically. Misses are misses and poor shots are poor shots and the officers didn't exhibit much in the way of proper control. The G19 is a proven performer and certainly is "enough gun" when shots are properly landed. In looking at various articles on the story, it looks like shooting distances were between 10-15 feet and 70 feet depending on the various accounts. Prior to trying to put a cap in the cops, the suspect had killed his sister and shot his mother. No doubt rifles, shotguns, or pistol caliber carbines would have helped the officers get shots on target, but the officers did have enough gun to start with, but not enough marksmanship. The failure here isn't with the the gun. http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012...arlem-hospital http://www.policemag.com/Channel/Pat...r-Suspect.aspx http://gothamist.com/2012/04/25/cops...n_who_kill.php From the OP's link... Quote:
Quote:
I do like how this fight was considered a gun battle. The suspect did fire a single round a the cops. So when you have both sides shooting, it is a battle and not just a shooting. Quote:
http://gothamist.com/2012/04/26/harlem_shooting_4.php
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May 3, 2012, 06:55 PM | #9 |
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Heres what new york police trainers should do. Stay with the same firearm but remove the stupid NY trigger job of a 8 or 12lb sa pull. Its simple keep your finger off the trigger until you need or have to fire. Step 2, more training. My dad was a police officer for 20 years and a rangemaster at his dept. he had enough pull to test and pick new guns and ammo for the dept. he trained constantly and was a great shot. being a good shot comes down to daily training. its not somethin you gain and then can sit on the shelf.
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May 3, 2012, 06:57 PM | #10 |
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NYPD
I am supprised NYPD doesnt carry. 40
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May 3, 2012, 07:18 PM | #11 |
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Every once n' awhile someone will post about the NYC trigger like it's some great thing.
The NYC trigger, IMO takes an already horrible Glock trigger and makes it worse. I don't know where this guy was hit but I don't think getting hit in non-vital areas with a .40 is significantly worse than getting hit in non-vital areas with a 9mm. And as far as the misses go - I think people are assuming the gunman just stood there and shot it out with the officers, he could have been moving, using cover - being a whack-a-mole - we don't know. |
May 3, 2012, 07:22 PM | #12 |
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I'm a skeptical as well. All those misses with a handgun some how translates to a 3 round fight with a rifle? In most urban environments a handgun is more practical. Just issuing a rifle is no guarantee they will train more than with the pistol.
What would be more likely as a little range time with the rifle and less with the pistol. Ending with proficiency in neither. |
May 3, 2012, 07:23 PM | #13 | |
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Quote:
I dont know... It would be fun to see tested in some scientific way would a different brand of gun led to better accuracy in a stress condition.
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May 3, 2012, 07:31 PM | #14 |
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I gota say that's a pretty low percentage of hits, and 84 rounds fired total!? I suspect they did a good deal of pointing the gun around the car they used for cover and unloaded. I would rather slow down and take 10-20 shots and hit my target then take 84 wild shots and hope I hit. For one to protect innocent bystanders from getting hit from stray rounds, conserving ammo, and more quickly and efficiently eliminating the target. If your job entails you to carry a firearm, the least you can do is become proficient with it. I have a couple buddies who are cops and an uncle who is also an LEO and I shoot more often and better than the lot of them. It amazes me how some people go into the profession of law enforcement and do not practice and hone critical skills needed to safely do their job. I'm sure there are plenty out their who disagree with me, but the numbers don't lie.
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May 3, 2012, 07:40 PM | #15 |
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Bob and weave?
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May 3, 2012, 08:06 PM | #16 | |
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Quote:
Good pistol courses, including Farnum's, emphasizes that you shouldn't be surpised if your hits don't solve the problem immediately. That's why we keep shooting until it's over. |
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May 3, 2012, 09:04 PM | #17 |
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As a paramedic I have taken care of patients with gunshots of all flavors. I had a drive-by victim take a 9mm fmj in the arm pit and follow the rib around the chest and lodge under his pectoral muscle. No vital dmage despite being hit in the zone. I have also had dead patients from .22lr self inflicted to the head. I know this is just one case, but to me the 9mm is not a proven performer. I understand that some people are recoil sensitive and more rounds are better and so on but I will stick to a little more gun and better bullets. IMHO the smaller calibers sufer from under penetration due to the bullets they use. A 38 +p with 158gr SWC cuts holes instead of relying on blunt force. I am not saying the 38+p is better than a 9mm. I will stick to my .45acp.
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May 3, 2012, 09:10 PM | #18 |
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The linked article indicated the suspect was behind cover, and active, at 21 yards from the officers.
I have no trouble accepting that hit percentages would be lousy for typical shooters in those conditions, particularly if they thought they were taking fire. I also suspect that in such a scenario, I would choose my AR with EOTech 552 over any handgun. |
May 3, 2012, 09:21 PM | #19 |
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It is easy for any of us to say that the reason the fight was not stopped earlier was due to a plethora of reasons. Well I have a news flash for those that think this rifle, or that shotgun are the end all. The human body is a lot tougher than you may think. I have as a medic seen men that were hit in the chest with hunting caliber bullets from deer rifles. They lived. Two actualy walked out of the house they were shot in. Yes they did drop in the yard. I personaly survived a 12 Ga to the chest from less than 6 feet. It did not knock me down, or even backwards. It spun me forward as a matter of fact. Due to more miracles than I care to go into I lived to learn a lesson.
Besides it unknown if the suspect was on drugs. That can make a huge difference.
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May 3, 2012, 09:27 PM | #20 |
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Don't they issue shotguns to the NYPD? That's what I woulda been reaching for in that scenario.
Anybody claiming that hitting a bad guy pointing a handgun at you from twenty yards away in the dark with adrenaline pumping is an easy shot is sadly mistaken. A 16% hit ratio is pretty good considering the baby-killer wouldn't go down after multiple bullets striking him. He was probably tweaked on coke, meth, or pcp. Cop's worst nightmare
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May 3, 2012, 09:55 PM | #21 | |
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Quote:
Some 9mm ammo penetrates little, but expands quickly. Some expand not at all and over penetrate. Some do a good job of both. There are good bullets in the 9mm that make it superior to the .38. |
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May 3, 2012, 10:23 PM | #22 |
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It amazes me how alike people are across the spectrum...
I honestly dont think 17% is absolutely terrible given the circumstances. I would challenge anyone here to do better when being fired upon(spare me the war stories). However... it could obviously be improved upon. Many untrained shooters act just like untrained fighters. Instead of picking their shots precisely, they just throw as many as they can as quick as they can and dont worry so much about aiming, also their form suffers due to the fear of getting hit. Fighting is a little different than gun fighting though!lol Id have to say youre not human if youre not worried about getting shot when being shot at. And about the target... people are animals. Some are way tougher than others. Some people act like humans in modern society, soma still have that animal instinct and drive. Ive seen deer run a long way after being shot with a centerfire rifle right in the bread basket. They dont care. They just want to survive. Some people have that same drive. They dont care about pain. All they care about is to continue living or going out in a blaze of glory.
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May 3, 2012, 10:49 PM | #23 |
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o... I carry 50+ rounds of ammo, maybe I need another 30...
Me thinks, the cops just pulled rapid fire and not aimed, but more of "cover/suppressive fire" What people don't understand is, shooting at someone WHO IS SHOOTING BACK AT YOU!!!!!!!!!!!! is no OH, let me aim down my sights for 10 seconeds and get this centered. No, you do your best to aim that barrel/sights at them. I like to see someone understress of being struck by a bullet try to shoot a target/moving target that is SHOOTING @ THEM. If someone shoots at me, the first thing I would do is go behind a object for cover. |
May 4, 2012, 01:20 AM | #24 | ||||||||
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Quote:
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With that said, let's wait and see just how many rounds actually hit the suspect and just how many were in "the zone." We know at least 70 completely missed and so they were outside of "the zone." That doesn't give me a lot of hope in expecting the other 7-14 to be there. We also know that the suspect was shot in the legs and torso. http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/04/...ghts-shooting/ Leg hits are not going to be what most folks would consider to be "the zone." Quote:
Many cops make their shooting quals and do their jobs and many do exceptional jobs of policing without firing a shot. Certainly, more cops lives are preserved and injuries reduced via situational awareness, people skills, and attitude. Street cops end up doing everything from neighbor disputes, domestic disputes, finding lost children, car chases, speeders, public interaction, counselors, and on and on and on. Strangely most cops are not absolute experts in all the areas in which their job forces them to work. The really sad thing is that while we would all really like to know that our local cops shoot better, citizens don't seem willing to pay the extra $ in taxes to make them all highly trained shooters. If we pay for them to be highly trained shooters, are we also going to make them all hostage situation negotiators which would require a lot more training? How about making them professional grade family counselors? Quote:
Quote:
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http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2007/1...as-low-as.html Quote:
This article from tactfire.com discussed the hit rate of an unnamed police department. The hit rates were terrible, especially when it was about the same rate as the untrained shooters they had battled (11%). So why spend the time and money training officers to shoot if they shoot no better than the untrained bad guys? Given the results, the commander described the officer's gun training as being worthless. http://www.tacfire.com/uncategorized...ing-for-police So if officers in a gunfight have that much trouble hitting their target, then they are not likely to be able to hit a specific point on the target. Of course, OP's gunfight apparently happened at a greater distance than most non-LEO gunfights. That should make hitting the target more difficult. However, at 70 feet, the the shots being made by officers were within the distance for which most officers have been trained and qualify. So at the range, making use of cover, I would have thought that officers would shoot slower and better pick their shots. Also, the suspect was within the cops trainging rage and the officers outnumbered the suspect. and so they had the upper hand which should have afforded better shooting. Apparently, my thought was wrong. So did y'all catch Farnum's closing comments? I know he is supposed to be a respected firearms and combatives instructor, but one comment was ludacris. Keep in mind that Farnum is really pushing the need for officers having rifles. Even so, I would not have expected him to make a blatantly wrong comment about pistols to make the rifle option sound better. He stated... Quote:
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"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange Last edited by Double Naught Spy; May 4, 2012 at 06:51 PM. |
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May 4, 2012, 06:54 AM | #25 |
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Just goes to show what stress, adrenalin flow will do to one trying to shoot a gun with accuracy. IIRC the hit percentage is about average for LE.
Makes you think, are we the civilian, really ready for a armed confrontation?
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