Gorgeous German Cape Gun 10.3 x 60R / 20

Marplot · March 21, 2024, 08:46 AM

Just landed a German Cape gun. See link for info.

I can't tell if the R.L Rasch is a retailer or maker? There are no proof marks I can tell. There is a Crown over a V on the top barrels and one hidden on the top of the receiver, near the barrels. I wonder if this is not a proof mark or "View Mark" maybe for Vorhat.

It should be here tomorrow and can give more info. Any ideas, even critical, are appreciated!

https://www.gunsinternational.com/gu...n_id=102117390

Jim Watson · March 21, 2024, 09:59 AM

There was a Rasch family in the gun business from 1630 until 1944 when the RAF bombed Brunswick and destroyed their place of business.

The company was incorporated as G.L. Rasch in 1829. So take a real close look at that name on the lock and see if it is not G.L. instead of R.L.

https://www.germanhuntingguns.com/fe...arrys-article/

Marplot · March 21, 2024, 11:09 AM

Jim Watson. I should receive the gun tomorrow. Will have a look and get back to you.

Jim Watson · March 21, 2024, 11:50 AM

I will be interested to hear what you see, but bear in mind, it is kind of like the time the janitor answered the phone in the engineer's office: "I told you all I knowed when I said hello."

That site has a lot of information and is the only real source I googled.

ligonierbill · March 21, 2024, 12:58 PM

DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com has a section on drillings and such.

Marplot · March 23, 2024, 07:26 AM

I did receive the Combo gun. It does say G.L. Rasch (Georg Ludwig?) in gold around the hammer. Hopefully it is the maker not just the retailer. It is faded out and hard to photograph. Around the other hammer is the town. It is wonderfully made and must have been a high end gun in its time.

Ricklin · March 24, 2024, 02:43 PM

It sure is a lovely gun. Are the finishes original? Since chamber has been lengthened I suspect more than that was done. If it is possible for an item to look Germanic....this gun would be a textbook example. Good on ya, great gun!

Marplot · March 24, 2024, 04:23 PM

It sure is a lovely gun. Are the finishes original? Since chamber has been lengthened I suspect more than that was done. If it is possible for an item to look Germanic....this gun would be a textbook example. Good on ya, great gun!

Thank you. I don't have a clue if the finishes original. The seller thought it had R.L. Rasch as the manufacturer. However the gold was actually G.L. Rasch. Who could be the maker, and/or the retailer.

How could I find out more about it?

Ricklin · March 26, 2024, 12:12 PM

Well it does sound like Jim Watson was really helpful in getting you on the right track. Lots of resources out there. Time for a few hours of Google Fu. The key to research on the internet? Search terms.

Marplot · March 26, 2024, 01:37 PM

You are right! Also there is a lovely website about German guns and these are my favorites.

https://www.germanhuntingguns.com/ab...ndentification

Marplot · March 26, 2024, 01:52 PM

While "Crown V" easily confused with a London view stamp, that is the German "vorrat" (on-hand) stamp meaning that this firearm was on-hand when the 1891 German proof law went into effect.

Jim Watson · March 26, 2024, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Since chamber has been lengthened

I had to go back to the original advert to see where that came from.
But 2 1/2" 20 gauge is hardly rare; ever hear of a Winchester Model 12?

The seller says he was shooting black powder in the steel rifle barrel and AAs in the Damascus shot barrel. How's that again?

**Unclenick** · March 31, 2024, 08:16 AM

Sounds like the previous owner was using the AA low recoil rounds on the assumption they would not exceed black powder pressures, but loading the 10.3×60R himself, using black powder.

There are load data sources online for modern bullets; at least paid load data is available. I am a little wary of that paid source, as his drawings come from QuickDESIGN, so his load data may come from QuickLOAD, which can underestimate peak pressures a bit in some cartridges. If the previous owner didn't blow the gun up with his loads, I would pull down a sample of them to measure the powder charge and check its grain size, and check the bullet dimensions and weight. I would also ask him what brand of black powder he was using. Then, you'll have something you can replicate.

Jim Watson · March 31, 2024, 07:09 PM

Does Quickload estimate black powder?
10.3x60R is the Continental version of the .450-.400 2 3/8" BPE. I understand that bottleneck BPCR is a little different to load but the basics remain, fill 'er up.

**4V50 Gary** · April 11, 2024, 09:13 AM

Is that pistol grip buffalo horn?

Ricklin · April 14, 2024, 01:03 PM

Marplot,
Did you catch this article on the german hunting guns site?
https://www.germanhuntingguns.com/fe...arrys-article/

March 21, 2024, 11:09 AM	#3
Marplot Junior Member Join Date: March 2, 2024 Location: Atlanta Posts: 6	Jim Watson. I should receive the gun tomorrow. Will have a look and get back to you. __________________ Bill and Anne

March 23, 2024, 07:26 AM	#6
Marplot Junior Member Join Date: March 2, 2024 Location: Atlanta Posts: 6	Jim Watson I did receive the Combo gun. It does say G.L. Rasch (Georg Ludwig?) in gold around the hammer. Hopefully it is the maker not just the retailer. It is faded out and hard to photograph. Around the other hammer is the town. It is wonderfully made and must have been a high end gun in its time. __________________ Bill and Anne

March 24, 2024, 02:43 PM	#7
Ricklin Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Location: SW Washington state Posts: 2,016	It sure is a lovely gun. Are the finishes original? Since chamber has been lengthened I suspect more than that was done. If it is possible for an item to look Germanic....this gun would be a textbook example. Good on ya, great gun! __________________ ricklin Freedom is not free

March 24, 2024, 04:23 PM	#8
Marplot Junior Member Join Date: March 2, 2024 Location: Atlanta Posts: 6	It sure is a lovely gun. Are the finishes original? Since chamber has been lengthened I suspect more than that was done. If it is possible for an item to look Germanic....this gun would be a textbook example. Good on ya, great gun! Thank you. I don't have a clue if the finishes original. The seller thought it had R.L. Rasch as the manufacturer. However the gold was actually G.L. Rasch. Who could be the maker, and/or the retailer. How could I find out more about it? __________________ Bill and Anne

March 26, 2024, 12:12 PM	#9
Ricklin Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Location: SW Washington state Posts: 2,016	Well it does sound like Jim Watson was really helpful in getting you on the right track. Lots of resources out there. Time for a few hours of Google Fu. The key to research on the internet? Search terms. __________________ ricklin Freedom is not free

March 21, 2024, 09:59 AM	#2
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,545	There was a Rasch family in the gun business from 1630 until 1944 when the RAF bombed Brunswick and destroyed their place of business. The company was incorporated as G.L. Rasch in 1829. So take a real close look at that name on the lock and see if it is not G.L. instead of R.L. https://www.germanhuntingguns.com/fe...arrys-article/

March 21, 2024, 11:50 AM	#4
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,545	I will be interested to hear what you see, but bear in mind, it is kind of like the time the janitor answered the phone in the engineer's office: "I told you all I knowed when I said hello." That site has a lot of information and is the only real source I googled.

March 21, 2024, 12:58 PM	#5
ligonierbill Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2007 Posts: 2,458	DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com has a section on drillings and such.

March 26, 2024, 01:37 PM	#10
Marplot Junior Member Join Date: March 2, 2024 Location: Atlanta Posts: 6	You are right! Also there is a lovely website about German guns and these are my favorites. https://www.germanhuntingguns.com/ab...ndentification __________________ Bill and Anne

March 26, 2024, 01:52 PM	#11
Marplot Junior Member Join Date: March 2, 2024 Location: Atlanta Posts: 6	While "Crown V" easily confused with a London view stamp, that is the German "vorrat" (on-hand) stamp meaning that this firearm was on-hand when the 1891 German proof law went into effect. __________________ Bill and Anne

March 31, 2024, 08:16 AM	#13
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Sounds like the previous owner was using the AA low recoil rounds on the assumption they would not exceed black powder pressures, but loading the 10.3×60R himself, using black powder. There are load data sources online for modern bullets; at least paid load data is available. I am a little wary of that paid source, as his drawings come from QuickDESIGN, so his load data may come from QuickLOAD, which can underestimate peak pressures a bit in some cartridges. If the previous owner didn't blow the gun up with his loads, I would pull down a sample of them to measure the powder charge and check its grain size, and check the bullet dimensions and weight. I would also ask him what brand of black powder he was using. Then, you'll have something you can replicate. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

March 31, 2024, 07:09 PM	#14
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,545	Does Quickload estimate black powder? 10.3x60R is the Continental version of the .450-.400 2 3/8" BPE. I understand that bottleneck BPCR is a little different to load but the basics remain, fill 'er up.

April 11, 2024, 09:13 AM	#15
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,843	Is that pistol grip buffalo horn? __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

April 14, 2024, 01:03 PM	#16
Ricklin Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Location: SW Washington state Posts: 2,016	Marplot, Did you catch this article on the german hunting guns site? https://www.germanhuntingguns.com/fe...arrys-article/ __________________ ricklin Freedom is not free