Which MOA for red dot

[Roland Thunder]

I am thinking of getting a red dot sight for my Sig 320 45acp FS. I am trying to determine which MOA would be best for what I am going to use it for. This would be mostly for competition bowling pin shoot at about 25 ft or target shooting at the same distance. I have pretty much narrowed it down to a Burris Fast Fire 3 or Vortex Viper/Venom. The Vortex isn't available in anything smaller than 6 MOA. Burris FF 3 is available in 3 MOA and 8 MOA.

Any suggestions?

[ShootistPRS]

Aim small miss small; get the smallest dot you can. You will want to see your target behind the dot and not the dot covering your target. 6 MOA is 3 inches at 50 yards.

[Jim Watson]

8 MOA is .7" at 25 FEET. I would not want a smaller pipper for pins.

[ShootistPRS]

If you don't mind the dot covering 2/3" at 25 feet and two inches at 25 yards fine. It will be difficult to plink at tin cans or shoot at the range for practice when the red dot covers the bullseye at 25 yards. The smaller dot makes it easier to point at the middle of a target at standard practice ranges.

[NoSecondBest]

My twenty-five years of using them in competition and hunting says smaller is better....for everything.

[ShootistPRS]

^^^^^ this!
Thanks for your contribution.

[O4L]

I prefer a 2MOA for everything.

[Venom1956]

pretty sure the viper comes in a 3 moa since i've got one.

[RoughDivider]

Looked up the issue, seems opinion is split for handgun shooting, since it's so close in most disciplines the bigger dot is faster to acquire and you're still going to hit what you're aiming at. The smaller will be more precise but slower. That's the big tradeoff here. For rifles? 2moa or smaller.

[ds-10-speed]

Since you mentioned you're going to mainly be shooting the up close speed sports, I would use the larger dot.

I have been doing the bowling pin, SCSA and NSSF sports for many years and find most shooters that use dots prefer the larger dots. I preferred using just iron sights for most of my years and just recently added dot guns.

The whole idea with these sports is to get as fast as you can and larger dots are quicker to find and get on target. Keep in mind, reducing your time is the only concern with these sports, not where you hit the pin or plate. I have Burris FF3's with 8MOA's on 2 revolvers, some shooters even have larger dots or those with both a really large circle and a small dot or cross hairs.

[NoSecondBest]

I was a factory sponsored shooter for several years and shot in many major competitions. I have met and know most of the "big name" shooters in my travels over the years, and most prefer the smaller dots. Not sure where anyone "looked it up", but from years of competing and winning myself and knowing many, many top shooters, big dots are not the hot set-up. I shot speed shoots and precision shoots at three gun matches and used the same dot size in the same gun for both and some of my sights had adjustable dot sizes and I never used the larger dot. The smaller dot is easy enough to see simply by turning the intensity up on it. Some sights don't produce a bright enough dot under certain conditions to be used well in bright sunlight. That's the sight's fault, not the dot size. The "tin can" type work better in all conditions for being able to see the dot. The Burris FF type sights are a bit harder to get fast dot acquistion due to the intensity and lack of shade around the dot to make it easy to see. FWIW, I have several Burris FF dots. They have their place in certain conditions, but not in all conditions. Before you buy anything, and you're not sure, go look through a few and see the difference. Then decide. If you know anyone who has them on guns and has both sizes, ask them to look through them. Turn the brightness up and down and see how it looks to you.

[ds-10-speed]

The FF3 comes with a shade, I've never needed it even in bright sun. But it may be handy in the rain.

[Roland Thunder]

It appears from researching the matter that the Vortex Venom allows co-witnessing with iron sights better than does the Viper due to the lower profile of the Viper. I believe the Burris FF3 allows co-witnessing with iron sites as well

[ds-10-speed]

The reflex sights can be hard to get used to, especially if you've never used a dot before, like me. It took a few months before I finally got better than my iron sights, but now I can always do better than iron sights. It took learning the exact grip hold so the dot was in view when you bring up the gun, not hunting for it after the fact. Also getting used to ignoring the damn thing bouncing all around.

I know there are better options out there, but the Burris was in the price range I wanted.

I haven't used the older Burris FF dots to compare but I hear the FF3 is much better. The FF3's now have 5 settings, Auto, High, Med, Low and Off. They are plenty bright for outdoor use. The 8MOA dot is really not that big compared to 3MOA IMO, it's not like golf balls to basket balls. At 100 yards it's the difference between 8" and 3" but I mostly shoot at 25 feet.

Here are pics showing the FF3 shade on my revolvers, the shade comes with it and just snaps on.

I also like mounting the dot as low as possible.

[T. O'Heir]

A bowling pin is about 4.76" diameter(can't believe there are actual specs for a bowling pin, but there are.). Hard to place a shot accurately when you can't see the target through the sight. MOA means 1" at 100 yards. So 8 MOA covers 8" at 100. Too big for pins at 7 yards.
No red dots allowed when I was shooting pins, so check before you spend any money.

[ds-10-speed]

That means a bowling pin is about 7 dots wide at 25' with an 8MOA. You can easily hit the head or the neck if you want. Also if you are shooting a .45 cal its only a little bigger than your bullet (.70")! How can that be to big for pins?

Here is the approximate view of an 8MOA dot at 25 feet. It was drawn to fit 7 dots wide.

[Jim Watson]

I have an elderly Tasco, I don't know what the red dot subtends but I would not want it any smaller.

I also have a Burris 1X sold by Gil Hebard with a 7.75 MOA non-illuminated black dot. He explained that with the gun zeroed to shoot to the center of the dot, if you can hold the dot within the black of an NRA 50 yard target, you will score at least a 10. It might be a bit large for distant small irregular targets but it looks pretty small against a bowling pin or IPSC target.

[MarkCO]

It depends. I have dots from 1 MOA to 12 MOA on various firearms and they serve different purposes. People also see various dots different based on their age, eyes, lighting etc. The best bet is to shoot some of them before you buy. Also realize that some people start from an accuracy perspective and some start from a speed perspective, so that will skew their preferences. Only the timer will tell you which you shoot better overall.

Generally, the top dogs shooting repetitive types of targets like steel and pins 25 yards and in, are using dots that are 6 to 8 MOA on pistols. When you get to guys shooting open where the score on the target matters, you start to see smaller dots. Only when it gets to guys shooting out far with ARs in Limited do you see the dots that are under 2 MOA. Sure, there are exceptions.

[mrdaputer]

I totally agree it depends on your eyes. It is not one size fits all

[Gary L. Griffiths]

Another factor is that as you become accustomed to whatever sized dot you settle on, it will become easier for your eyes to pick up. Through practice, you can train yourself to pick up even a 1 moa dot quickly and accurately.

[ds-10-speed]

Here is what I come up with for dots on bowling pins at 25 feet.

8 MOA = .67"
6 MOA = .5"
3 MOA = .25"
2 MOA = .17"

Scaled with a CAD program.



Added 12 and 16 MOA, C-More has these sizes for speed shooting sports.

16 MOA = 1.34"
12 MOA = 1"

[Arnold S]

I'd also recommend the smaller one. I really underestimated how much of a difference the size of the red dot actually makes on your field of view. A bigger dot can definitely limit your ability to hit small targets, no matter how good of an aim you have. However, all of that heavy influenced by the distance you are going to shoot.

[ds-10-speed]

It's not uncommon for bowling pin shooters to shoot 5 pins between 2 and 3 seconds (5 in row). I have seen some do it under 2 seconds, I have done it a couple times with iron sights. Accuracy is not a concern for this sport, only the lowest time. That's what the big dots are for. I have several handguns set up for this sport (iron sight and dot) and some for long range target. I don't want to compromise with just 1 gun for all sports. If you can get fast with a small dot then that's great.

With the group of guys I shoot with, you have to consistently shoot under 3 seconds or you don't have a chance of winning. I actually haven't beaten my iron sight single line time of 1.96 seconds with a dot yet but my total scores over the 10 week league have been getting better with a dot. We shoot 5 pins 4 times = 1 score, we turn in 10 scores over 10 weeks and keep the best 6 scores for total. Rules are no practicing before shooting a score, if you practice after shooting for score, then you can't shoot any more scores until the next week.