New Colt Cobra....I'm laughing - Page 2

Danoobie · October 11, 2017, 08:18 PM

It's like the old GTOs. Now the Bonneville had air conditioning,
all the power options, and the same 389. But the GTO has the
reputation. Crappy goats still sell for upwards to 30K, you're lucky if
you can get one third that for the Bonneville.

People hear the name "Colt", and go all ga-ga.

**Mike Irwin** · October 12, 2017, 06:21 AM

"Not really my cup of tea though, the little bit I have ever fondled a Colt (my uncles 4" Python) I didn't care for the cylinder release compared to my Smith's."

I'm the same way. I quit carrying a Detective Special and went back to S&Ws because of the cylinder release.

But, a few years ago, something clicked in my brain and I decided I needed some Colts... Some old Colts, so I've ended up with a 1968ish Official Police in .38 Special, a Police Positive in .32 New Police (.32 S&W Long) and a Police Positive Special in .32-20.

They're all range guns, so the cylinder release isn't an issue.

RIDE-RED 350r · October 12, 2017, 06:49 AM

The cylinder release is literally the only thing about a Colt I don't care for. Other than that, the few I've handled and fired we're quite nice.

pete950 · October 12, 2017, 07:21 AM

I handled one 2 months ago junk, then my local gun store got a second one in and that one was a huge difference for the better.

buck460XVR · October 12, 2017, 08:33 AM

In a CWC gun I could care less for fit, finish and aesthetics. I care about accuracy, reliability, durability and ease of use. MIM parts, done correctly, are just as good as any, and when used by a reputable manufacturer, have shown no more failures than others. They too are of no concern to me. For a snub nosed .38 special revolver, there are many other options just as good and much less expensive than the Colt offering. Folks begged and begged for Colt to get back into the revolver business and now want to trash their first attempt in years. From what I've seen and fondled of them, they aren't bad, just not worth the extra cash.

johnwilliamson062 · October 12, 2017, 09:59 AM

And, as far as the price point, they just hit the market. Of course they are selling around MSRP. Wait a couple years and see where they settle. If COlt can find the money to keep themselves out of more bankruptcy issues, I still have hope they will develop a nice DA revolver line before I retire.

K_Mac · October 12, 2017, 11:28 AM

I'm not trashing the new Colt revolvers. Offering well built utilitarian revolvers makes good sense. I just question using model names from the past that do not meet past standards.

Stainz · October 15, 2017, 09:34 AM

The new SS Colt Cobra I bought in August locally for $705 OTD wasn't a fluke - it was identical in fit & finish to the ones on display. It was certainly better than the last new GP-100 I looked over - nearly as nice as my S&W 60 Pro, in fact. This isn't my first DA handgun with 'Colt' emblazoned somewhere on it... that honor belongs to my first-ever S&W - a 625MG in .45 Colt. That taught me a valuable lesson, too... unlike the mix of Rugers I had bought, which were all delivered as 'works in progress', the S&W's were all functional as delivered. So is the new Cobra!

Good MIM parts are uniform and fine in my S&W experience - and the infamous IL is a non-issue to me, as well. So, what do I think of the new Cobra? It's an appropriate self defense firearm. Bigger than a J-frame, smaller than a K-frame - except for it's cylinder's chamber spacing - my HKS #10 speedloaders fit it as well as my 2" 10, 4" 64, & 6" 66. I keep them loaded with Remington +P 158gr LHPSWC's for self defense. I appreciate the Cobra's even flat finish - reduces reflection. The fiber optic front sight is appreciated, too... Tritium night sights generally are useless to me. The cylinder release is odd to me - pull vs push, as on a proper S&W - and that cylinder rotation is backwards (CW!), too. Reloading likely won't be needed in a 'protect your bacon' event, so that oddity shouldn't be important.

The SA trigger is easy to predict and fairly crisp, while the DA trigger is equally predictable and smoother than any other NIB DA-capable revolver I've owned... including PC shop S&W's. The Hogue rubber grips cover the backstrap and make the recoil of those +P Remi's easier to follow up with. Speaking of shooting those defensive loads, my larger fingers noticed the edges of the trigger guard - I'll have to ease it a bit (It's not the first revolver I've had to adapt!). Actually, wood/Dymondwood grips, like the new Cobra sports on the May 2017 American Rifleman front cover, would be a better fit for me. Those +P 158gr LHPSWC's seem to hit coincident POA/POI at 20/25 yd on steel plates when using a six o'clock sight picture.

My wife couldn't miss - even the smaller plates - very aggravating to be out shot by your wife! She liked the Cobra... maybe I can swap her for my 2" 10! (No way, I am afraid.) I need a Mika pocket holster for it - and some wood/Dymondwood grips. I need to make some calls... oops, I need to clean it, too (I shot it last week!). At 69 - I finally bought a 'Colt'.

Sgt127 · October 15, 2017, 07:29 PM

There's something I like about a new Colt revolver. But, in the current market, the SP101 may be as good as it gets in bang for your buck reckoning.

The Kimber also intrigues me...

The Colt looks and feels...meh.

hdwhit · October 15, 2017, 10:14 PM

Quote:

mete wrote:
Of course I've seen many a complaint about MIM in guns...

Like forging, casting, extruding, or drawing, MIM is a fabrication technique. It can me done well and produce robust durable parts or it can be done in a slipshod fashion. There's no reason a MIM part can't be as "good" as a part fabricated some other way; it just depends on the talent and skill of the people producing the part and whether the customer wanted to pay for the appropriate alloys and treatment.

RMcL · October 15, 2017, 10:42 PM

The biggest problem I have with older Colt DA revolvers up to and including the DS2 version, is the slow trigger return in rapid double action fire.

buck460XVR · October 16, 2017, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sgt127

There's something I like about a new Colt revolver. But, in the current market, the SP101 may be as good as it gets in bang for your buck reckoning.

Actually, I think since the Colt has only .38 special+p capabilities, that the airweight J-frame S&Ws, which sell for about half as much are as good as it gets in bang for your buck reckoning, for a true CWC .38. When you get to a steel J Frame, capable of .357, MSRP of the SP is virtually the same as a S&W model 60. The SP is a good gun yes, but as good as it gets?

Sgt127 · October 16, 2017, 04:18 PM

Well, I've carried a 642 for 25 years as a BUG. I own a 2" 64. 3"65's. 2 3/4" Speed Six and others. I've also owned a 2" Colt Lawman and an Agent.

I also have an SP101 and an SPNY.

Dollar for dollar. Utility, durability. Portability. Power. Yeah, I'm kind of impressed with the Ruger SP101.

The current Cobra...again...Meh.

Super Sneaky Steve · October 16, 2017, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Irwin

"I wonder what it would cost to manufacture a new Colt revolver with the same fit and finish of days gone by? My guess is $700 would not get it done. Building a lesser version of a classic seems like a bad idea."

You'd likely be looking at $2000, if not more.

No one, and I mean no one, could put a polish and blue job on a revolver like Colt.

But to get that finish required highly skilled and experienced people running those polishers.

Colt isn't the only company that can blue a gun. I have a recently manufactured Browning HiPower that has deep smooth bluing.

Henry rifles also come to mind. Very high quality in the blue.

Buckeye! · October 24, 2017, 06:23 PM

The new version just doesn't stack up .. to the original

TruthTellers · October 24, 2017, 07:10 PM

I'm just reading through this thread and giggling about all I said in a thread last December about these soon to be released revolvers.

And to be fair, guys like DPris said that there were bound to be people comparing these to old hand made Colt's of decades ago and being disappointed. I never got my hopes up to begin with.

The fact is S&W and Ruger can and have been making revolvers for decades now that are as good or better than Colt and for less.

You want a REAL Colt? Find a used one, they're the best Colt revolvers Colt ever made.

Deaf Smith · October 24, 2017, 08:32 PM

Just handled one yesterday. Yuck. Sure wish the Magnum Carry was produced instead of this thing.

BTW, just also handled a third gen. Colt Police Positive, 4 inch blue, in .38 Spl. They also want $400 but might come down. Way ahead of this 'Cobra'.

Deaf

funnelcake · October 24, 2017, 11:39 PM

If going after any % of the CCW market...WHY the steel frame? And then...call it a Cobra! I’m a huge fan of Colt DA revolvers (and 1911’s) but am struggling with this one!

Shucks, Colt makes GREAT aluminum frames!!

joed · October 25, 2017, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deaf Smith

I just bought a blue, excellent condition, Colt Detective Special, 3ed Gen, for $400.

So why in the heck would I want this 'Cobra' for that price?

Deaf

You wouldn't want it, it's junk. First time I looked at it I had that figured out. I lost respect for Colt over the new Cobra. Why would they cheap out like that?

TruthTellers · October 25, 2017, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joed

You wouldn't want it, it's junk. First time I looked at it I had that figured out. I lost respect for Colt over the new Cobra. Why would they cheap out like that?

Because there are shallow gun collectors who will buy anything Colt makes because... "It's a Colt!"

Super Blackhawk · October 28, 2017, 01:12 PM

The new breed of Yuppie exec management at Colt knows very little about the firearm market. They are bean counters who don’t even count well given Colts financial troubles of late.
A smart mgt team would look at reproducing the quality of the Python n actually delivering it... but meathead mgt at Colt is clueless.

Model12Win · October 28, 2017, 01:50 PM

That will NEVER happen.

Reproducing the Python with the same quality today would make for a gun with an MSR in the tens of thousands of dollars.

It's not happening.

TruthTellers · October 28, 2017, 09:09 PM

^ No, it's not happening. The desire for people to see a modern manufactured revolver like that for a reasonable price is a thing of the past and my answer to those who want such a revolver is, go get a used one.

There's a blued Python at an lgs near me. Price: $3000. I haven't handled it, I have no interest in it, so I don't know if it's worth it or not. Let's say it has barely been fired and is in like new condition and one wanted a revolver of that perceived quality then they should buy it.

I've had in my mind a .357 GP100 because I don't have a .357 revolver. What's nice about the .357 is I can find .357's from the cheap Rohm crap all the way up to the Python and on to older Smiths and into the twilight zone of Korth and what all of them have in common is they're all used guns and, with the exception of Rohm, made by really skilled people.

A gun is only worth what it's worth to the person wanting to buy it. For how low employees are getting paid in gun companies, the customer is not going to get a Holland and Holland for the price of a Savage.

And what I detest about the new Colt Cobra is it's not quality worth the price. I can understand one paying 3 or 4 g's for the high quality .357 guns I mentioned, but what I can't accept is one paying more money for a mediocre .38 when they could buy a .357 that's better made for less. If one wants to spend their mostly hard earned money on a Cobra, it's their boat to float, but when they try and tell me that it's better quality than newly made Ruger's and Smith's or is made from iron mined from Mount Olympus, I can't let such bunk go over without being challenged.

tipoc · October 29, 2017, 01:00 AM

Colt stopped making Pythons something like 12 years ago. IIRC about 2000 they ceased making them in the main factory and moved them to the Custom Shop where maybe 2005 or so they stopped. A few left after that but it was the last of their da revolvers. The bottom line reason is because they weren't selling at the about $1300. Colt was asking.

Colt introduced the new Cobra to try to get into the da revolver gun business again. Their effort helped inspire Kimber to quick step the production of their revolver. There has been a market for the return of a Dick Special size gun. Colt stepped into that.

The gun was never going to be a replacement for the old Cobra. The new gun is stronger. At least according to Colt, it will take a steady diet of +P ammo.

The MSRP on the Colt is less than $700. The MSRP on the Kimber K6 is above $800. The latter is available in .357 and is priced competitively with S&W offerings.

https://www.colt.com/Catalog/Revolvers/Cobra

http://www.kimberamerica.com/k6s-stainless-3

I have not had a chance yet to see the new Colt so I have no opinion on it. Except that I like the idea of Colt making a success of DA revolvers. I have no ill will towards Colt.

So buy what you like, or buy both and see for yourself. Sell them when you're done with the fun of them.

tipoc

fourbore · October 30, 2017, 06:27 AM

I dont think the complaint is that a colt is not finished to the quality of old days. Not my issue at least. My complaint is colt is way over price for the product provided. Today, 2017 a colt is a big waste of money. I dont know what the problem is and at a certain level, I dont care. They want MY money, they have to offer a BETTER value than the competition. Not almost as good. Better at some level. Triple lock up? Exciting calibers? Light weight. Versatility? Barrel swap? Super smooth cam design trigger pull? Quality, innovation, some features, something anything, beside just a name. Colt is not worthy of a charity purchase. They need to earn it.

Nothing to do with 100 year ago how guns were finished. This new gun. Drop the price $200 for a start. Build a new customer base. Then think about the future instead of living off the past.

October 12, 2017, 06:21 AM	#27
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,401	"Not really my cup of tea though, the little bit I have ever fondled a Colt (my uncles 4" Python) I didn't care for the cylinder release compared to my Smith's." I'm the same way. I quit carrying a Detective Special and went back to S&Ws because of the cylinder release. But, a few years ago, something clicked in my brain and I decided I needed some Colts... Some old Colts, so I've ended up with a 1968ish Official Police in .38 Special, a Police Positive in .32 New Police (.32 S&W Long) and a Police Positive Special in .32-20. They're all range guns, so the cylinder release isn't an issue. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 12, 2017, 11:28 AM	#32
K_Mac Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2010 Posts: 1,850	I'm not trashing the new Colt revolvers. Offering well built utilitarian revolvers makes good sense. I just question using model names from the past that do not meet past standards. __________________ "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin

October 24, 2017, 07:10 PM	#41
TruthTellers Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2016 Posts: 3,890	I'm just reading through this thread and giggling about all I said in a thread last December about these soon to be released revolvers. And to be fair, guys like DPris said that there were bound to be people comparing these to old hand made Colt's of decades ago and being disappointed. I never got my hopes up to begin with. The fact is S&W and Ruger can and have been making revolvers for decades now that are as good or better than Colt and for less. You want a REAL Colt? Find a used one, they're the best Colt revolvers Colt ever made. __________________ "We always think there's gonna be more time... then it runs out."

October 24, 2017, 08:32 PM	#42
Deaf Smith Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2000 Location: Texican! Posts: 4,453	Just handled one yesterday. Yuck. Sure wish the Magnum Carry was produced instead of this thing. BTW, just also handled a third gen. Colt Police Positive, 4 inch blue, in .38 Spl. They also want $400 but might come down. Way ahead of this 'Cobra'. Deaf __________________ “To you who call yourselves ‘men of peace,’ I say, you are not safe without men of action by your side” Thucydides

October 28, 2017, 01:12 PM	#46
Super Blackhawk Member Join Date: October 23, 2015 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 50	Clueless Colt execs The new breed of Yuppie exec management at Colt knows very little about the firearm market. They are bean counters who don’t even count well given Colts financial troubles of late. A smart mgt team would look at reproducing the quality of the Python n actually delivering it... but meathead mgt at Colt is clueless.

October 11, 2017, 08:18 PM	#26
Danoobie Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2017 Posts: 351	It's like the old GTOs. Now the Bonneville had air conditioning, all the power options, and the same 389. But the GTO has the reputation. Crappy goats still sell for upwards to 30K, you're lucky if you can get one third that for the Bonneville. People hear the name "Colt", and go all ga-ga.

October 12, 2017, 06:49 AM	#28
RIDE-RED 350r Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2014 Posts: 425	The cylinder release is literally the only thing about a Colt I don't care for. Other than that, the few I've handled and fired we're quite nice.

October 12, 2017, 07:21 AM	#29
pete950 Member Join Date: April 11, 2010 Location: ILLinois Posts: 42	I handled one 2 months ago junk, then my local gun store got a second one in and that one was a huge difference for the better.

October 12, 2017, 08:33 AM	#30
buck460XVR Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2006 Posts: 4,342	In a CWC gun I could care less for fit, finish and aesthetics. I care about accuracy, reliability, durability and ease of use. MIM parts, done correctly, are just as good as any, and when used by a reputable manufacturer, have shown no more failures than others. They too are of no concern to me. For a snub nosed .38 special revolver, there are many other options just as good and much less expensive than the Colt offering. Folks begged and begged for Colt to get back into the revolver business and now want to trash their first attempt in years. From what I've seen and fondled of them, they aren't bad, just not worth the extra cash.

October 12, 2017, 09:59 AM	#31
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	And, as far as the price point, they just hit the market. Of course they are selling around MSRP. Wait a couple years and see where they settle. If COlt can find the money to keep themselves out of more bankruptcy issues, I still have hope they will develop a nice DA revolver line before I retire.

October 15, 2017, 09:34 AM	#33
Stainz Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2007 Location: Alabama Posts: 749	The new SS Colt Cobra I bought in August locally for $705 OTD wasn't a fluke - it was identical in fit & finish to the ones on display. It was certainly better than the last new GP-100 I looked over - nearly as nice as my S&W 60 Pro, in fact. This isn't my first DA handgun with 'Colt' emblazoned somewhere on it... that honor belongs to my first-ever S&W - a 625MG in .45 Colt. That taught me a valuable lesson, too... unlike the mix of Rugers I had bought, which were all delivered as 'works in progress', the S&W's were all functional as delivered. So is the new Cobra! Good MIM parts are uniform and fine in my S&W experience - and the infamous IL is a non-issue to me, as well. So, what do I think of the new Cobra? It's an appropriate self defense firearm. Bigger than a J-frame, smaller than a K-frame - except for it's cylinder's chamber spacing - my HKS #10 speedloaders fit it as well as my 2" 10, 4" 64, & 6" 66. I keep them loaded with Remington +P 158gr LHPSWC's for self defense. I appreciate the Cobra's even flat finish - reduces reflection. The fiber optic front sight is appreciated, too... Tritium night sights generally are useless to me. The cylinder release is odd to me - pull vs push, as on a proper S&W - and that cylinder rotation is backwards (CW!), too. Reloading likely won't be needed in a 'protect your bacon' event, so that oddity shouldn't be important. The SA trigger is easy to predict and fairly crisp, while the DA trigger is equally predictable and smoother than any other NIB DA-capable revolver I've owned... including PC shop S&W's. The Hogue rubber grips cover the backstrap and make the recoil of those +P Remi's easier to follow up with. Speaking of shooting those defensive loads, my larger fingers noticed the edges of the trigger guard - I'll have to ease it a bit (It's not the first revolver I've had to adapt!). Actually, wood/Dymondwood grips, like the new Cobra sports on the May 2017 American Rifleman front cover, would be a better fit for me. Those +P 158gr LHPSWC's seem to hit coincident POA/POI at 20/25 yd on steel plates when using a six o'clock sight picture. My wife couldn't miss - even the smaller plates - very aggravating to be out shot by your wife! She liked the Cobra... maybe I can swap her for my 2" 10! (No way, I am afraid.) I need a Mika pocket holster for it - and some wood/Dymondwood grips. I need to make some calls... oops, I need to clean it, too (I shot it last week!). At 69 - I finally bought a 'Colt'.

October 15, 2017, 07:29 PM	#34
Sgt127 Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2002 Posts: 1,053	There's something I like about a new Colt revolver. But, in the current market, the SP101 may be as good as it gets in bang for your buck reckoning. The Kimber also intrigues me... The Colt looks and feels...meh.

October 15, 2017, 10:42 PM	#36
RMcL Senior Member Join Date: May 7, 2006 Location: Alabama Posts: 273	The biggest problem I have with older Colt DA revolvers up to and including the DS2 version, is the slow trigger return in rapid double action fire.

October 16, 2017, 04:18 PM	#38
Sgt127 Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2002 Posts: 1,053	Well, I've carried a 642 for 25 years as a BUG. I own a 2" 64. 3"65's. 2 3/4" Speed Six and others. I've also owned a 2" Colt Lawman and an Agent. I also have an SP101 and an SPNY. Dollar for dollar. Utility, durability. Portability. Power. Yeah, I'm kind of impressed with the Ruger SP101. The current Cobra...again...Meh.

October 24, 2017, 06:23 PM	#40
Buckeye! Senior Member Join Date: September 1, 2008 Posts: 849	The new version just doesn't stack up .. to the original

October 24, 2017, 11:39 PM	#43
funnelcake Member Join Date: October 15, 2008 Posts: 29	If going after any % of the CCW market...WHY the steel frame? And then...call it a Cobra! I’m a huge fan of Colt DA revolvers (and 1911’s) but am struggling with this one! Shucks, Colt makes GREAT aluminum frames!!

October 28, 2017, 01:50 PM	#47
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	That will NEVER happen. Reproducing the Python with the same quality today would make for a gun with an MSR in the tens of thousands of dollars. It's not happening.

October 28, 2017, 09:09 PM	#48
TruthTellers Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2016 Posts: 3,890	^ No, it's not happening. The desire for people to see a modern manufactured revolver like that for a reasonable price is a thing of the past and my answer to those who want such a revolver is, go get a used one. There's a blued Python at an lgs near me. Price: $3000. I haven't handled it, I have no interest in it, so I don't know if it's worth it or not. Let's say it has barely been fired and is in like new condition and one wanted a revolver of that perceived quality then they should buy it. I've had in my mind a .357 GP100 because I don't have a .357 revolver. What's nice about the .357 is I can find .357's from the cheap Rohm crap all the way up to the Python and on to older Smiths and into the twilight zone of Korth and what all of them have in common is they're all used guns and, with the exception of Rohm, made by really skilled people. A gun is only worth what it's worth to the person wanting to buy it. For how low employees are getting paid in gun companies, the customer is not going to get a Holland and Holland for the price of a Savage. And what I detest about the new Colt Cobra is it's not quality worth the price. I can understand one paying 3 or 4 g's for the high quality .357 guns I mentioned, but what I can't accept is one paying more money for a mediocre .38 when they could buy a .357 that's better made for less. If one wants to spend their mostly hard earned money on a Cobra, it's their boat to float, but when they try and tell me that it's better quality than newly made Ruger's and Smith's or is made from iron mined from Mount Olympus, I can't let such bunk go over without being challenged. __________________ "We always think there's gonna be more time... then it runs out." Last edited by TruthTellers; October 28, 2017 at 09:15 PM.

October 29, 2017, 01:00 AM	#49
tipoc Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2004 Location: Redwood City, Ca. Posts: 4,114	Colt stopped making Pythons something like 12 years ago. IIRC about 2000 they ceased making them in the main factory and moved them to the Custom Shop where maybe 2005 or so they stopped. A few left after that but it was the last of their da revolvers. The bottom line reason is because they weren't selling at the about $1300. Colt was asking. Colt introduced the new Cobra to try to get into the da revolver gun business again. Their effort helped inspire Kimber to quick step the production of their revolver. There has been a market for the return of a Dick Special size gun. Colt stepped into that. The gun was never going to be a replacement for the old Cobra. The new gun is stronger. At least according to Colt, it will take a steady diet of +P ammo. The MSRP on the Colt is less than $700. The MSRP on the Kimber K6 is above $800. The latter is available in .357 and is priced competitively with S&W offerings. https://www.colt.com/Catalog/Revolvers/Cobra http://www.kimberamerica.com/k6s-stainless-3 I have not had a chance yet to see the new Colt so I have no opinion on it. Except that I like the idea of Colt making a success of DA revolvers. I have no ill will towards Colt. So buy what you like, or buy both and see for yourself. Sell them when you're done with the fun of them. tipoc

October 30, 2017, 06:27 AM	#50
fourbore Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2015 Location: new england Posts: 1,159	I dont think the complaint is that a colt is not finished to the quality of old days. Not my issue at least. My complaint is colt is way over price for the product provided. Today, 2017 a colt is a big waste of money. I dont know what the problem is and at a certain level, I dont care. They want MY money, they have to offer a BETTER value than the competition. Not almost as good. Better at some level. Triple lock up? Exciting calibers? Light weight. Versatility? Barrel swap? Super smooth cam design trigger pull? Quality, innovation, some features, something anything, beside just a name. Colt is not worthy of a charity purchase. They need to earn it. Nothing to do with 100 year ago how guns were finished. This new gun. Drop the price $200 for a start. Build a new customer base. Then think about the future instead of living off the past.