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#176 |
member
Join Date: June 13, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 8,462
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I count four guys standing along that wall before strange ranger stands up from the pew.
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#177 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 12,426
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Quote:
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#178 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 20, 2017
Posts: 316
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Quote:
I believe the raw streaming video (blurry) made it look like he had a duty belt and uniform but he was wearing a sport coat/ suit jacket and was drawing from concealment. There’s been other video which I believe was from church security that’s much clearer. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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#179 |
Staff
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 30,485
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Lots of things here I don't feel qualified to comment on, I shoot pistols to 200yds offhand, for recreation. Not much into the "tactical" mindset, though I always figured that if you can make a precise long shot, a short "sloppy" one ought to be easier.
The shot that ended the church shooting was anything but "sloppy".
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All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better. |
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#180 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 23, 2018
Location: Republic of Boulder, USA
Posts: 1,475
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Quote:
If ya gotta go to church, I'd find another one that is more of the 21st century. |
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#181 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 22, 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 3,657
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Quote:
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Cherish our flag, honor it, defend it in word and deed, or get the hell out. Our Bill of Rights has been paid for by heros in uniform and shall not be diluted by misguided governmental social experiments. We owe this to our children, anything less is cowardice. USAF FAC, 5th Spl Forces, Vietnam Vet '69-'73. |
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#182 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 24, 2014
Posts: 577
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Power and Control
Power and Control: Sure enough churches should be a peaceful spiritual places. Unfortunately, that congregation was not. That place is an aberration plain and simple
Subsequently, the person in charge of security refused to have training for the defibrillator. He shared the defibrillator had a recording. That was reversed later. This stuff went on and on. ![]()
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#183 |
Staff
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 25,567
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Wow, that's just sad. I've run across that kind of attitude before, but I have never been able to really understand it.
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Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
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#184 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 24, 2014
Posts: 577
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John: I got scolded one time for trying to understand things that are crazy. The guy pointed out the we could not understand crazy with the reasoning system we were taught. That is probably a truth but not the only truth. You and I look at these situations with wonderment.
Looking at the size of church chapels down here in the Bible belt makes one point. We may have to be shooting at twenty-five yards plus. I has missed my turn coming back from lunch. Going down a back street it was amazing to find three large churches off the the main road. There were probably a dozen churches on the main road. To defend the chapels would have required shots, taking a guess, 10 to 20 yards minimum. This fact is why many of us insist on training for longer shots. I need to get busy! Added: There are 1500 churches in the city limits of Chattanooga, TN.
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#185 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 6,461
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I'm there all day long with my SA pull on my HK P30L. The DA pull needs some work. I still would love to know what Jack Wilson used. I could carry my 17, but I like my P30L more. I have to say I am just as good now with both of them up close. |
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#186 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 24, 2014
Posts: 577
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I'm not sure about this sticking to this three yard business and the like. Somebody could make a case following these rules flies in the face of recent events. In the last few post we were talking about the video as it would happen on our turf. Don't think there is any meaningful difference.
Added: I shoot my 1911 and G23.4 and twenty-five yards. Also, shoot my Model 19 and some others at that range. What gives with this resistance to shooting at the longer ranges ![]()
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#187 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 26, 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 106
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#188 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 2,077
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3-3-3 simply relates to statistical norms. I have never seen it hailed as a threshold for handgun training. Quote:
If an armed sentinel expects to protect people at 40-50 yards, I think it would be more practical to simply get a carbine. It could also be argued that rather than planning to take long shots with a handgun, simply use another defender stationed in key locations thus splitting the distance.
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Life is a web woven by necessity and chance... Last edited by FireForged; January 13, 2020 at 08:44 PM. |
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#189 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 24, 2014
Posts: 577
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Statistics: One statistic that is absolutely correct and cannot be challenged under any circumstances. That is shootings happen where shootings happen. There was no suggestion of twenty-five yards being some sort of a standard. There was no reference to any school. We speaking of the situation that active shooter may be encountered. It's hard for me to understand how learning to shoot well at the longer distance is a waste of time.
Probably, the best course is to take individual initiative, The longer distance may be up to individuals to work out their own training. Apparently, there is resistance at all levels.
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#190 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 3,082
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Quote:
https://www.fbi.gov/services/cjis/ucr Police departments were required to fill in a report and submit it to the FBI whenever an officer died from gunfire in the line of duty. That statistic came from these gunfights. Anyone who trains to that standard is training for a losing gunfight. Quote:
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Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon. |
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#191 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 23, 2018
Location: Republic of Boulder, USA
Posts: 1,475
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Quote:
When my sons and I go outside to the uncontrolled range we go to..we set up a steel plate 'out there' for rifles(not much farther than 25y, iron sight rifles, no scopes) but always have a 'competition' with handguns to see who can hit it.. |
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#192 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 12,426
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I don't know that I'd agree that recognizing that a number of gun fights are happening in close proximity and that officers were dying in many of those gun fights and then trying to improve performance in those situations is "training for a losing gun fight". If I am not good at doing something I work to get better at it. There could be a question of do I need to do that thing in the first place. Let me address that for myself.
In my daily life I am in close proximity to people most of the time I am in public. I'm a firm believer in situational awareness, avoidance, and de-escalation. That said, people can and do get close to me. I don't have the legal authority to order them to do much and walking around pistol in hand is generally frowned upon. So the proximity is what it is. That leaves the number of shots and the time. I can deliver 3 rounds faster than 3 seconds at 3 yards, or I can choose to deliver more if I need to. When I got to the point of being able to do 3 rounds in 3 seconds I didn't stop and not try to improve. I kept working to improve further. Any instructor I have ever had that references it treats it as basically a bare minimum. Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk Last edited by TunnelRat; January 14, 2020 at 09:24 AM. |
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#193 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 24, 2014
Posts: 577
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The statisticians need to be reminded of the bell shaped curve. These figured should not be cooked. It sounds as if the longer range portion does not exist. Not to suggest a majority of practice should be at the longer ranges-no way! I do not walk around with a rifle or carbine. I do not want to be like those people in the congregation with drawn firearms pointed at the floor. How far were those citizens away from the shooter. I can't tell. Shooting happens where shooting happen. I no longer have a crystal ball.
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#194 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 12,426
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As has been covered multiple times now, 3-3-3 doesn't mean you don't practice shooting farther or that shootings don't occur farther. The threat environment of a mass shooting versus a personal confrontation seems to differ often.
Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk Last edited by TunnelRat; January 14, 2020 at 07:46 PM. |
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#195 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 6,461
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Quote:
As for the ones who quoted me and disagreed. That's fine. My stance still stands. Hah, see what I did there? |
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#197 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 6,461
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Nice shooting, David!
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#198 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 24, 2014
Posts: 577
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I just got back for the indoor range. We were having thunder storms etc. so no outdoor shooting. Shot up to 25 yards. Shot 96 rounds of 357 and 60 of 40S&W caliber. I need work. The Model 19 Smith was shot double action(Lyman #357429 bullet with 12.5 grains of Accurate #9). The other handgun was the G23.4 using some Winchester FMJ 40's traded in by a police department.
I consider that to be practice. Three other shooters came and went while I was shooting. Work on speed is to come. Need to shoot some more rounds in the meantime. Added: None of the 40 S&W bullets bounced off the target. This bouncing has been widely reported. ![]()
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#199 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 2,077
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You said: Quote:
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It may not be a waste of time to carry 7 spare tires in your trek across the Nevada desert but based on the common methods associated with the careful planning of such a voyage, it is easily impractical ( all things considered). There are many factors which must be thoughtfully weighed. Some people know how to do that based on training or experience and some people make it up at they go. I am not sure how much experience any of the respondents in this thread actually have regarding this subject matter but I suspect that many of us here are having completely different discussions.
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Life is a web woven by necessity and chance... Last edited by FireForged; January 14, 2020 at 07:51 PM. |
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#200 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 24, 2014
Posts: 577
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Here and elsewhere I do find resistance to shooting at the longer ranges. Also, put what I said in context. I have too many words in my mouth without outside help
![]() In one thread there was a show of all the J frame Smith's, a belly gun, these people were carrying. Admit it, the three yards is gospel. There's ample evidence in this and other recent threads of the worship of three yards. I'm not sure about the consensus aspect of decision making. What if we were in a meeting of the Flat Earth Society? ![]()
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