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Old January 11, 2020, 05:11 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts View Post
We’ve discussed pocket carry in the past and how that can let you shave major time off a draw by letting you unobtrusively get a master grip on your pistol. Assuming enough distance or intervening barriers to stop or slow a physical attack, this would be a scenario where pocket carry would be great. You could have your pistol in your hand watching the strange ranger without ever alarming him or your fellow parishioners.
Assuming the pocket in question allows you to do this while seated. Certainly there are pockets that do, I'm just pointing that out.

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Old January 11, 2020, 05:18 PM   #177
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I count four guys standing along that wall before strange ranger stands up from the pew.
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Old January 11, 2020, 05:20 PM   #178
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I count four guys standing along that wall before strange ranger stands up from the pew.
Sure but I would think the goal is a system that doesn't rely on you standing at the start. Thus paying attention to wardrobe choices might be worth something.

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Old January 11, 2020, 06:00 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Tennessee Gentleman View Post
Hence the useful purpose of the thread. I used to work very closely with the USSS a few years back and most all of their procedures were based on incidents that they learned from. When Mary Jane Moore tried to kill Gerald Ford I believe the door to the limo was either locked or not able to be opened fast. So the USSS changed their procedures and equipment accordingly.



As to the presence of security. Low profile is quite possible. However, correct me if I wrong but wasn't Mr. Wilson carrying openly on what looked like a police style belt rig? Maybe I saw incorrectly.


I believe the raw streaming video (blurry) made it look like he had a duty belt and uniform but he was wearing a sport coat/ suit jacket and was drawing from concealment.

There’s been other video which I believe was from church security that’s much clearer.


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Old January 12, 2020, 12:21 AM   #180
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Lots of things here I don't feel qualified to comment on, I shoot pistols to 200yds offhand, for recreation. Not much into the "tactical" mindset, though I always figured that if you can make a precise long shot, a short "sloppy" one ought to be easier.

The shot that ended the church shooting was anything but "sloppy".
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Old January 12, 2020, 07:59 AM   #181
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Progressive Church: After awhile, I was told, that the security was really all about power and control from church leaders.
Ignorance abounds.. I can see wanting everything to be safe and trouble free. I can see making this place 'gun free' will give a warm and fuzzy, even if 'BGs' don't read the sign on the door..BUT, to claim it's about 'power and control'..that's nutz and way ignorant, IMHo.

If ya gotta go to church, I'd find another one that is more of the 21st century.
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Old January 12, 2020, 09:36 AM   #182
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Ignorance abounds.. I can see wanting everything to be safe and trouble free. I can see making this place 'gun free' will give a warm and fuzzy, even if 'BGs' don't read the sign on the door..BUT, to claim it's about 'power and control'..that's nutz and way ignorant, IMHo. If ya go to church, I'd find another one that is more of the 21st century.
Plus one...and I'd opine that, were they attacked, they'd be loud and vocal if the police responded in more than :30 seconds with the requisite "Power & Control". Rod
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Old January 12, 2020, 01:28 PM   #183
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Power and Control

Power and Control: Sure enough churches should be a peaceful spiritual places. Unfortunately, that congregation was not. That place is an aberration plain and simple

Subsequently, the person in charge of security refused to have training for the defibrillator. He shared the defibrillator had a recording. That was reversed later. This stuff went on and on. Safe areas in the building were established. These rooms had glass windows and doors. There are resources in the community to give competent direction to a plan A retired LEO, a member, was an outsider because he carried a gun. Some people are clueless.
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Old January 12, 2020, 04:36 PM   #184
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Wow, that's just sad. I've run across that kind of attitude before, but I have never been able to really understand it.
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Old January 12, 2020, 05:03 PM   #185
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John: I got scolded one time for trying to understand things that are crazy. The guy pointed out the we could not understand crazy with the reasoning system we were taught. That is probably a truth but not the only truth. You and I look at these situations with wonderment.

Looking at the size of church chapels down here in the Bible belt makes one point. We may have to be shooting at twenty-five yards plus. I has missed my turn coming back from lunch. Going down a back street it was amazing to find three large churches off the the main road. There were probably a dozen churches on the main road.

To defend the chapels would have required shots, taking a guess, 10 to 20 yards minimum. This fact is why many of us insist on training for longer shots. I need to get busy!

Added: There are 1500 churches in the city limits of Chattanooga, TN.
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Old January 13, 2020, 10:02 AM   #186
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To defend the chapels would have required shots, taking a guess, 10 to 20 yards minimum. This fact is why many of us insist on training for longer shots. I need to get busy!
100% agreed! There's no reason to not practice it.

I'm there all day long with my SA pull on my HK P30L. The DA pull needs some work. I still would love to know what Jack Wilson used.

I could carry my 17, but I like my P30L more. I have to say I am just as good now with both of them up close.
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Old January 13, 2020, 04:46 PM   #187
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I'm not sure about this sticking to this three yard business and the like. Somebody could make a case following these rules flies in the face of recent events. In the last few post we were talking about the video as it would happen on our turf. Don't think there is any meaningful difference.

Added: I shoot my 1911 and G23.4 and twenty-five yards. Also, shoot my Model 19 and some others at that range. What gives with this resistance to shooting at the longer ranges
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Old January 13, 2020, 06:58 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Tactical Jackalope View Post
100% agreed! There's no reason to not practice it.

I'm there all day long with my SA pull on my HK P30L. The DA pull needs some work. I still would love to know what Jack Wilson used.

I could carry my 17, but I like my P30L more. I have to say I am just as good now with both of them up close.
I read that Jack Wilson used a Sig P229 in 357 Sig.
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Old January 13, 2020, 07:28 PM   #189
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I'm not sure about this sticking to this three yard business and the like. Somebody could make a case following these rules flies in the face of recent events. In the last few post we were talking about the video as it would happen on our turf. Don't think there is any meaningful difference.
What training outfit is advocating for "sticking to three yards"? I have never heard of a standard of training regarding handguns which is limited to such a degree. The near universal standard across the planet is 0 to 25-33 yards.

3-3-3 simply relates to statistical norms. I have never seen it hailed as a threshold for handgun training.

Quote:
100% agreed! There's no reason to not practice it.
If we are using 25 yards as the common standard and [if] the suggestion is to train beyond that.. I politely disagree. I disagree on the grounds of training time, training effort, realistic practicality and a point of diminished returns. There are good reasons for the 25 or 33 yards standard and I support the spirit of that thinking.

If an armed sentinel expects to protect people at 40-50 yards, I think it would be more practical to simply get a carbine. It could also be argued that rather than planning to take long shots with a handgun, simply use another defender stationed in key locations thus splitting the distance.
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Old January 13, 2020, 09:39 PM   #190
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Statistics: One statistic that is absolutely correct and cannot be challenged under any circumstances. That is shootings happen where shootings happen. There was no suggestion of twenty-five yards being some sort of a standard. There was no reference to any school. We speaking of the situation that active shooter may be encountered. It's hard for me to understand how learning to shoot well at the longer distance is a waste of time.

Probably, the best course is to take individual initiative, The longer distance may be up to individuals to work out their own training. Apparently, there is resistance at all levels.
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Old January 14, 2020, 07:58 AM   #191
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I'm not sure about this sticking to this three yard business and the like.
The 3-3-3 came from the FBI Uniform Crime Reports (UCR's) in the 1970's and 1980's. They are available to the public.
https://www.fbi.gov/services/cjis/ucr
Police departments were required to fill in a report and submit it to the FBI whenever an officer died from gunfire in the line of duty. That statistic came from these gunfights. Anyone who trains to that standard is training for a losing gunfight.

Quote:
There was no suggestion of twenty-five yards being some sort of a standard.
That has been the national police standard, probably since the beginning of police standards. Up until 1996 the US Border Patrol qualified out to 50 yards. I think instead of inventing a standard a church should use an accepted police standard, I would even go so far as to use the state standard of the location they are in.
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Old January 14, 2020, 08:06 AM   #192
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What gives with this resistance to shooting at the longer ranges
Just guessing but perhaps indoor range only and 25y max(or less)..plus losing 'range points' from the people on either side if ya miss the target?

When my sons and I go outside to the uncontrolled range we go to..we set up a steel plate 'out there' for rifles(not much farther than 25y, iron sight rifles, no scopes) but always have a 'competition' with handguns to see who can hit it..
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Old January 14, 2020, 08:14 AM   #193
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I don't know that I'd agree that recognizing that a number of gun fights are happening in close proximity and that officers were dying in many of those gun fights and then trying to improve performance in those situations is "training for a losing gun fight". If I am not good at doing something I work to get better at it. There could be a question of do I need to do that thing in the first place. Let me address that for myself.

In my daily life I am in close proximity to people most of the time I am in public. I'm a firm believer in situational awareness, avoidance, and de-escalation. That said, people can and do get close to me. I don't have the legal authority to order them to do much and walking around pistol in hand is generally frowned upon. So the proximity is what it is.

That leaves the number of shots and the time. I can deliver 3 rounds faster than 3 seconds at 3 yards, or I can choose to deliver more if I need to. When I got to the point of being able to do 3 rounds in 3 seconds I didn't stop and not try to improve. I kept working to improve further. Any instructor I have ever had that references it treats it as basically a bare minimum.

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Old January 14, 2020, 08:52 AM   #194
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The statisticians need to be reminded of the bell shaped curve. These figured should not be cooked. It sounds as if the longer range portion does not exist. Not to suggest a majority of practice should be at the longer ranges-no way! I do not walk around with a rifle or carbine. I do not want to be like those people in the congregation with drawn firearms pointed at the floor. How far were those citizens away from the shooter. I can't tell. Shooting happens where shooting happen. I no longer have a crystal ball.
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Old January 14, 2020, 08:58 AM   #195
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As has been covered multiple times now, 3-3-3 doesn't mean you don't practice shooting farther or that shootings don't occur farther. The threat environment of a mass shooting versus a personal confrontation seems to differ often.

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Old January 14, 2020, 10:13 AM   #196
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I read that Jack Wilson used a Sig P229 in 357 Sig.
Oh, sorry! I knew the pistol. He actually said it very soon after the shooting happened. I was (am) just wondering if he used the DA or SA pull.

As for the ones who quoted me and disagreed. That's fine. My stance still stands. Hah, see what I did there?
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Old January 14, 2020, 10:38 AM   #197
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2.JPG

Practice at long ranges.

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Old January 14, 2020, 10:50 AM   #198
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Nice shooting, David!
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Old January 14, 2020, 01:16 PM   #199
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I just got back for the indoor range. We were having thunder storms etc. so no outdoor shooting. Shot up to 25 yards. Shot 96 rounds of 357 and 60 of 40S&W caliber. I need work. The Model 19 Smith was shot double action(Lyman #357429 bullet with 12.5 grains of Accurate #9). The other handgun was the G23.4 using some Winchester FMJ 40's traded in by a police department.

I consider that to be practice. Three other shooters came and went while I was shooting. Work on speed is to come. Need to shoot some more rounds in the meantime.

Added: None of the 40 S&W bullets bounced off the target. This bouncing has been widely reported.
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Old January 14, 2020, 06:43 PM   #200
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The statisticians need to be reminded of the bell shaped curve. These figured should not be cooked. It sounds as if the longer range portion does not exist. Not to suggest a majority of practice should be at the longer ranges-no way! I do not walk around with a rifle or carbine. I do not want to be like those people in the congregation with drawn firearms pointed at the floor. How far were those citizens away from the shooter. I can't tell. Shooting happens where shooting happen. I no longer have a crystal ball.
Stats are merely one small element within a larger consensus. I don't think anyone is holding "stats" as the pinnacle of their decision tree.

Quote:
There was no suggestion of twenty-five yards being some sort of a standard
sure there was, I made it.

Quote:
There was no reference to any school.
ok, I can accept that but I am still curious where the proclamation originated. Who imposed a 3 yard limitation -or- where did the idea come from.

You said:
Quote:
I'm not sure about this sticking to this three yard business and the like.
so what are you referring to?

Quote:
We speaking of the situation that active shooter may be encountered. It's hard for me to understand how learning to shoot well at the longer distance is a waste of time.
"waste of time" is not exactly the same as being impractical.

It may not be a waste of time to carry 7 spare tires in your trek across the Nevada desert but based on the common methods associated with the careful planning of such a voyage, it is easily impractical ( all things considered). There are many factors which must be thoughtfully weighed. Some people know how to do that based on training or experience and some people make it up at they go. I am not sure how much experience any of the respondents in this thread actually have regarding this subject matter but I suspect that many of us here are having completely different discussions.
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