380 cylinder for a webley mk iv

[RoyalWe]

Hello all!
I have a webley mk iv, the 38s&w one, and I love it! I hate the round and how weak/expensive/rare it is. There's a pretty well respected and renown gunsmith in Oregon here so I'm thinking I could have them forge a new cylinder chambered for 380 auto so that I can use it at the range with less impact on my wallet. I know the bore is a little bigger so accuracy will suffer and I'm sure there are people who will say the top break is too weak, but considering how 45acp converted webleys most common failure is the cylinder, not the frame/latch, as well as buffalo bore saying the 38sw+p is fine in these revolvers, I'm not worried about that. I think it's a pretty good way to breath life and usefulness into this old gun. Best part is I will still have the original cylinder to pop back in to shoot 38sw when I want to. I was tempted to even consider 9x19, but I don't want to push my luck that far and 9x18 has too large of a projectile so I'd have to modify the barrel and that's out of the question.

[lee n. field]

38s&w one, and I love it! I hate the round and how weak/expensive/rare it is.

Cheaper to set yourself up to handload.

[RoyalWe]

Yeah, Lee, your right but I'm thinking more universal usage. That is to say if I were away from home and don't have any ammo, I'd be able to pop into any gun store and grab a box of 380. I don't think handloading solves not having any with you. Also, strangely enough, my wife is more ok with me spending the money on a new cylinder than setting up for handloading. She's convinced I'll blow up the house.

[CaptainO]

The bullet size of the .380 is too small for the .38 S&W's bore (.380 bore = .355" .38 S&W =.361") If you try this it will "rattle down the barrel" and result in poor accuracy.

Just shoot either "factory" or .38 S&W handloads with the proper diameter projectile, and save your money.

Good luck

[Webleymkv]

I really don't see this as being a good idea for a number of reasons. First and foremost I think that the pressures involved with .380 Auto are a bit high for a Webley. SAAMI max pressure for .38 S&W is only 14,500 psi and while that is arguably held low due to the large number of older, more fragile top-breaks out there like those made by H&R, Iver Johnson, Hopkins & Allen, Forehand & Wadsworth, etc, the .380 Auto's max pressure is nearly 50% higher at 21,500 psi.

Secondly, as has been mentioned, accuracy will more than likely be quite poor. A .380 bullet is undersize even for a .38 Special barrel as it is .355" diameter rather than the .38 Spl's .357" groove diameter. A .38 S&W, however, uses an even larger .360" diameter bore and those who attempt to use standard .357-.358" bullets often experience lackluster accuracy in a Webley, so the even smaller .355" bullets of a .380 auto could only be expected to be worse.

Finally, a .380 Auto really isn't giving you much over a .38 S&W in terms of either performance or price if you shop around a bit. For example, SGAmmo currently has Prvi Partizan .380 Auto 94 gr FMJ for $13.95/50 round box.

http://sgammo.com/product/380-auto-a...zan-ammo-ppr32

The same site also has Prvi Partizan .38 S&W 145 gr LRN for $18.95/50 round box.

http://sgammo.com/product/38-sw-shor...zan-ammo-ppr37

As to power, bear in mind that the .380 is no powerhouse itself and that it is only really able to achieve higher velocity through the use of a much lighter bullet. For example, if we look at top-end loadings for both from Buffalo Bore we see that their .380 Auto +P loading can drive a 100 gr cast bullet to 1150 fps for 294 ft lbs of energy while the .38 S&W can drive a 125 gr cast bullet to 1000 fps for 277 ft lbs energy, not really that huge a difference.

Finally, in a relatively strong gun like your Webley, the .38 S&W can be handloaded to a very useful level of power. In my own 4" Webley Mk. IV, I've handloaded 200 gr LRN bullets to over 700 fps while experimenting with loadings to duplicate the original .38/200 British service loading (I've since backed that load off because I wasn't really trying to get velocity that high, but there were no signs of being overpressure). With a lighter bullet, I'm quite confident that I could make a .38 S&W equal or exceed the velocity and energy of a .380 Auto without pushing too hard, but I'm more interested in my Webley's historical value and creating ammo that will shoot to it's sights.

[CaptainO]

WebleyMkV told you the entire story. Frankly, I appreciate the original .38 S&W due to it's history and it's original 200 grain load. While the original British load (620 fps) only yields 170 foot-pounds of energy, it was accepted by the Brits because the load was known for it's ability to penetrate pine boards. (I believe that they were 1/8" thick and the load penetrated nine of them).

The latest commecial iteration of the cartridge is downloaded to preserve the integrity of the "break-top" revolvers of the century before last. I had a CCI-Speer loading manual #10 that helped shooters load the .38 S&W to some pretty respectable velocities, yielding healthy energies for small game and personal protection. If memory serves, it reaches about 206 foot pounds of energy with a 158 grain bullet. (About 767 fps). This may be a "peak" pressure load, but it would be an effective SWCL load for the cartridge.

Check it out and see for yourself.

[James K]

First, If you know a gunsmith who can make cylinders, please post his name (after you get what you want) because many of us would like to replace those "shaved" .455 cylinders with proper ones for the .455.

The major problem in what you want to do is that the .380 ACP is rimless, so empty cases won't extract unless you pry them out or punch them out with a dowel rod, OR have the cylinder made to use moon clips. But I don't know of anyone making clips for the .380 and I think 9mm clips would be too large.

If you reload, you can make .38 S&W brass from .38 Special (yes, I know, but it has been done, many times); I don't know anything you can make .380 ACP out of without swaging. I am not sure that, given the cost of making a cylinder, that much would be gained.

FWIW, WWII British .380 revolver ammunition was loaded with a .357" bullet.

Jim

[CaptainO]

Clement's Custom Guns can help. Cylinder & Slide may be of service as well.

[kilimanjaro]

Just put an extra box of 38 S&W in your travel bag, you'll always have ammo and you wont have to worry about running out during your travels.

Reloading is the way to go. A cylinder is going to cost you more than than the pistol or a reloading set is worth.

[RoyalWe]

Well, it seems I'm out numbered, and having all the stats to prove me wrong was nice to see. Maybe I'll just have to start handloading after all. Sure beats having to shell out $19 per box for the cheapest stuff on the market, and this way I can just more or less make my own hard cast rounds. Thank you all!

[James K]

FWIW, in WWII, Brits (mainly tankers) issued .380 (.38 S&W) revolvers were issued only 12 (twelve) rounds of ammo, which was considered quite enough for a reasonable war, though there was supposed to be another 12 rounds in unit supply.

As a result, the troops got to staking or nipping the rims of 9mm so cases would extract. There was plenty of 9mm around for the STEN and, in Africa and the ETO, from the enemy, though getting it from that source was often difficult. So, the Enfields and Webleys were fired with 9x19 (9mm Luger) with no problems for at least a few shots.

Jim

[Webleymkv]

Originally posted by James K
FWIW, in WWII, Brits (mainly tankers) issued .380 (.38 S&W) revolvers were issued only 12 (twelve) rounds of ammo, which was considered quite enough for a reasonable war, though there was supposed to be another 12 rounds in unit supply.

As a result, the troops got to staking or nipping the rims of 9mm so cases would extract. There was plenty of 9mm around for the STEN and, in Africa and the ETO, from the enemy, though getting it from that source was often difficult. So, the Enfields and Webleys were fired with 9x19 (9mm Luger) with no problems for at least a few shots.

While this might have been the only option as a war time expediency, I would strongly caution against it now. The Webley Mk. IV .38 is, basically, just a scaled-down version of the Mk. VI .455. Given that Mk VI's which have been shaved to accept .45 ACP in moonclips are known to shoot loose with repeated firing of .45 ACP, I can only assume that 9mm, which is substantially higher pressure than .45 ACP, would be even harder on a Webley Mk. IV or Enfield No. 2. Like I said, I can see it as a war time necessity, but I wouldn't recommend it as common practice (not that I think James K was suggesting such).

[James K]

I should have included that warning. FWIW, I have fired 9mm in those guns, but only for a few rounds and the guns held together. Actually, I think those Enfields and Webleys are tougher than many folks think, but I don't want to seem to approve actions that could result in damage to either the gun or the shooter.

Jim

[Webleymkv]

Originally posted by James K
I should have included that warning. FWIW, I have fired 9mm in those guns, but only for a few rounds and the guns held together. Actually, I think those Enfields and Webleys are tougher than many folks think, but I don't want to seem to approve actions that could result in damage to either the gun or the shooter.

Oh I have no doubt that the guns will take it for a while and I doubt that they would just spontaneously blow up either. I do, however, think that if someone were foolish enough to do this on a regular basis, the gun would probably shoot loose in fairly short order. FWIW, while I've heard of .455 Webley's blowing up from having .45 Auto ammunition shot through them, I suspect that if/when this has happened it's probably with the older models which were intended for black powder (I've seen a shaved Mk. I before ). I suspect that with a Mk. V or Mk. VI which had been shaved, but gun would simply batter itself loose before the cylinder would give up (though it might blow up if someone were foolish enough to continue shooting it after being battered beyond the threshold of safety).

[RoyalWe]

I didn't know anyone had braved the 9x19 in these things. Good to know that it can withstand a few rounds of it, should the need arise. Gives it a bit more usefulness in say a shtf scenario. Don't think I'll test it otherwise though!

[Cosmodragoon]

Buffalo Bore makes defensive ammo in .38 S&W. This page includes their press release, which says it is safe for use in a Webley.

[T. O'Heir]

.380 ACP uses a .355" bullet. .38 S&W uses a .360" bullet. The .380 ACP is called the 9mm Kurtz for a reason.
"...thinking I could have them forge a new cylinder..." That'd cost far more than the revolver is worth. And you cannot forge a cylinder. Precisely machine one at over $100 per hour plus the cost of the drawings.
"...issued only 12 (twelve) rounds..." That's because handguns were status symbols and only intended for last ditch self-defence. If you got into something like that, you should have thought about it beforehand and stayed in the tank with the hatch closed. Or acquired that STEN. snicker.

[James K]

"...stayed in the tank with the hatch closed."

Reports indicate that for many British (and American) tank crews, that was not an option; inside a burning tank can be, I believe, a rather uncomfortable place.

Jim

[4V50 Gary]

Plenty of good advice in this thread. Take it. It's cheaper than having someone make a new cylinder.

About the only feasible (cost effective) way to start churning out cylinders would be to CNC them on a milling machine.

[gyvel]

Maybe you could just buy another cylinder and have it rechambered for 9x18 Makarov...