Legal Full Auto Without Special License?

Pyrozen · July 20, 2005, 05:59 AM

Ok, so I have been reading through the full auto forums and have found many varying explanations of this. I have heard there are many different ways/requirements to obtain legal full-auto weapons. 200 dollar tax stamps, class 3 license, and other odd things.

Which one of those is it or is it a multitude of different requirements? I was under the impression that you had to have a class 3 license which cost a substantial amount of money and taxes.

Can someone please set the record straight for me? Also does my state, Pennsylvania, even offer full auto firearms for purchase to the average civilian?

shaggy · July 20, 2005, 07:51 AM

The process is fairly simple, though its long and expensive. You need to locate a so-called "transferable" machinegun - one that was made and REGISTERED with BATF prior to May 19, 1986. As an individual (not dealer or manufacturer), you cannot buy pre-sample or post sample MGs. If the gun is out of state, you'll need to have it first transfered to a class 3 dealer in PA. If its in PA, it can be transfered directly to you. Whether it comes from an individual or a dealer in your state, you'll need to do form 4 in duplicate (www.titleii.com), two FBI fingerprint cards (call BATF), one US citizenship certification, and pay a $200 transfer tax. The form 4 will require you to get a signoff from your local CLEO (Chief law Enforcement Officer - usualy a sheriff, DA, or judge with jurisdiction over the place of your residence).

If you are an FFL, you can have it transfered directly from out of state to your FFL but all other provisions apply (form 4, CLEO signoff, transfer tax, etc.). If its being transfered to a corporation, you do not need to get fingerprints or the CLEO signoff. A word of caution about corporate ownership however - you absolutely need to keep the corporation alive, pay all franchise taxes, fees, file all corporate taxes, etc. If the corporation dies or ceases to exist you will be in possession of an NFA weapon not registered to YOU (since the corporation is the legal owner). IOW the corporation makes transfers faster and easier, but is more of a headache on an annual basis.

PA is a pretty good state for machinegun ownership, though getting a signoff in some of the cities (Philly, Pittsburgh, etc.) can be difficult and may require you to go the corporate route. My dealer has a nice selection of stuff might want to check him out - www.jbarms.com

Pyrozen · July 20, 2005, 08:01 AM

I will definitely check out that dealer and thanks for the good explanation. However it raises a few more questions.

What is significant about May 19, 1986?

It kind of makes me mad that I can only purchase fully automatic guns that are almost 20 years old.

shaggy · July 20, 2005, 08:13 AM

On May 19, 1986 the Firearms Owners Protection Act (FOPA '86) took effect. Although it did some good things for gun owners, it ended the new production and registration of full autos for civilians. Thus it froze the numbers in circulation for civilians at the 1986 level and with guns being lost, destroyed, transfered out of the NFA chain (and thus becomming illegal guns subject to seizure) the number is constantly decreasing.

Pyrozen · July 20, 2005, 08:18 AM

Ok now i know the "Assault Weapons" Ban was recently lifted due to its expiry. Assault weapons is in quotes because most of the requirements stated in that act were not actually assault weapon characteristics which I am sure you already know.

Will the FOPA ever come under review or expiration like the assault weapons ban and is there anything gun owners and voters can do about it?

shaggy · July 20, 2005, 08:22 AM

Nope - no expiration date on it and it doesn't look like it'll ever be repealed by Congress (Do you think a majority of Congress would ever commit political suicide by voting to make machineguns legal again?). Unfortunately we are stuck with it.

Pyrozen · July 20, 2005, 08:30 AM

Hmm that's true. It wouldn't be a good political move. The general public's hair stands on end when they hear the word "machine gun".

I am just curious then as to if it applies to machine gun's in the technical term or to any fully automatic weapon? I'm making the assumption that a machine gun would be a Browning .30 cal while an AK-47 would be considered an assault rifle. I am just using these weapons as references so I can get the definition of machine gun right.

Are the terms machine gun and fully automatic weapon one and the same?

shaggy · July 20, 2005, 08:44 AM

Same thing.

The legal definition is found in Title 26 (26 USC 5845(b)):

The term “machinegun” means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

If it can fire more than one shot with a single pull of the trigger, its a machinegun.

Pyrozen · July 20, 2005, 09:00 AM

Well that's a bummer. Thanks for clearing that up.

CyberSEAL · July 22, 2005, 02:47 PM

I'm sorry, but just so that I understand clearly, in order for me to buy a brand new MP5 full-auto, I will need to be an FFL, right?

Third_Rail · July 22, 2005, 05:49 PM

Yes - and being a Class III FFL just to buy and shoot MGs is a big no-no. Just as bad as making MGs yourself, in the eyes of the gov't.

Stiletto · July 22, 2005, 07:24 PM

I thought making your own MG was OK as long as it wasn't for sale?

shaggy · July 22, 2005, 08:42 PM

Quote:

I thought making your own MG was OK as long as it wasn't for sale?

Nope, its a felony.

swmike · July 22, 2005, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyrozen

It kind of makes me mad that I can only purchase fully automatic guns that are almost 20 years old.

Actually, it would make me ecstatic to be able to buy a 20 year old M-60 or M-2. Here in Washington State, no CLEO will sign off so there is no point in even picking up the forms.

Third_Rail · July 23, 2005, 01:23 AM

Form a LLC. Then no CLEO signature is needed!

swmike · July 23, 2005, 11:18 AM

It would appear that Washington State doesn't recognize that option. Here is the Law:

"RCW 9.41.190
Unlawful firearms -- Exceptions.
(1) It is unlawful for any person to manufacture, own, buy, sell, loan, furnish, transport, or have in possession or under control, any machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle; or any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for use in a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, or in converting a weapon into a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle; or to assemble or repair any machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle.

(2) This section shall not apply to:

(a) Any peace officer in the discharge of official duty or traveling to or from official duty, or to any officer or member of the armed forces of the United States or the state of Washington in the discharge of official duty or traveling to or from official duty; or

(b) A person, including an employee of such person if the employee has undergone fingerprinting and a background check, who or which is exempt from or licensed under federal law, and engaged in the production, manufacture, repair, or testing of machine guns, short-barreled shotguns, or short-barreled rifles:

(i) To be used or purchased by the armed forces of the United States;

(ii) To be used or purchased by federal, state, county, or municipal law enforcement agencies; or

(iii) For exportation in compliance with all applicable federal laws and regulations.

(3) It shall be an affirmative defense to a prosecution brought under this section that the machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle was acquired prior to July 1, 1994, and is possessed in compliance with federal law.

(4) Any person violating this section is guilty of a class C felony."Unless you are selling to the military, police, or exporting, you can't even have one in your possession. Since there were none registered (no CLEO signoff) prior to the laws effect in '94 that exemption is moot as well.

Lets face it, they don't want anyone to have a Class III weapon in Washington, Legally that is. Wonder how many there really are in private hands though.

Marcus · July 24, 2005, 06:10 PM

LLCs count for the corperate route for certain? Marcus

boofus · July 24, 2005, 08:17 PM

My Texas LLC owns a FNC, M10/9 and suppressor.

Hopefully I will win the lotto soon so it can own more.

Nighthawk1983 · September 5, 2005, 01:57 PM

what do you need to do as far as forming a legitimate LLC and having it recognized as such?

3 weelin geezer · September 7, 2005, 03:07 AM

PM #4
shaggy
Senior Member

Join Date: 10-09-2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 611

On May 19, 1986 the Firearms Owners Protection Act (FOPA '86) took effect. Although it did some good things for gun owners, it ended the new production and registration of full autos for civilians.

________________________________

What good things did it do?

shaggy · September 7, 2005, 09:04 AM

Believe it or not the NRA helped push the FOPA '86 through and endorsed it. One of the main things it did was to get some protections into the law for gun owners regarding the interstate transportation of firearms. The MG ban was suppossed to be a poison pill added by a few democrats to the original bill, but the NRA thought they could get that provision cleared up later (either in conference committee or by a later bill) and continued to help push the bill into law.

FDzerzhinsky · September 21, 2005, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaggy

Same thing.

The legal definition is found in Title 26 (26 USC 5845(b)):

The term “machinegun” means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

If it can fire more than one shot with a single pull of the trigger, its a machinegun.

(Emphasis Added)

I remember a story someone told about someone using a shoelace to make a rifle fully auto. (I don't remember a lot about it, as you can see

) Would that mean shoelaces are illegal when in the presence of a rifle? Or when it says "soley and exclusively," does it mean that the shoelace manufacturer has to say "this string isn't for keeping shoes on your feet, but for turning your semiauto AR-15 into a fully-functional automatic rifle." Just curious.

leadcounsel · September 21, 2005, 09:58 PM

Next time you take your AK47 to the range, try thumb bumping.

Make sure you have a big backstop and nothing behind it to injure someone. PUt your gun on your hip with your thumb through the trigger. Aim gun at the target. take your support hand and pull forward and keep pulling forward. the recoil of the gun will cause it to fire in full auto.

be safe and have fun.

shaggy · September 22, 2005, 10:33 AM

Quote:

I remember a story someone told about someone using a shoelace to make a rifle fully auto. (I don't remember a lot about it, as you can see ) Would that mean shoelaces are illegal when in the presence of a rifle? Or when it says "soley and exclusively," does it mean that the shoelace manufacturer has to say "this string isn't for keeping shoes on your feet, but for turning your semiauto AR-15 into a fully-functional automatic rifle." Just curious.

FWIW, BATFE recently issued an advisory opinion on the 'string trick' declaring it to be a machinegun and thus illegal unless registered. To answer your question, I think they would have to hold the opinion that just having a shoelace in the presence of a rifle would not be violative of the law, but as you took steps towards rigging the string to the firearm you would edge ever closer to that legal line. Basically, because a shoelace can have more than one use, the intended use by the user becomes the use for which it was designed (by the user). And thus if or when you decide to use your shoelaces to make a firearm full-auto and take substantial steps to that end that becomes the 'sole and exclusive' use of that shoelace - not keeping your shoes on your feet.

Of course, its important to remember that trying to circumvent the law in the face of an advisory opinion to the contrary based upon a hypertechnical reading of the law is a good way to become a test case of your reading. You may win or you may lose, but either way its going to cost a truckload of money in legal fees to find out.

23Skidoo · September 22, 2005, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Nope - no expiration date on it and it doesn't look like it'll ever be repealed by Congress (Do you think a majority of Congress would ever commit political suicide by voting to make machineguns legal again?). Unfortunately we are stuck with it.

Actually I heard an interesting twist on this one from my dealer.

One of the powerful constituencies who are or should be fighting for this are none other than PDs and other law enforcement agencies. Why? Money, of course. They have a lot of surplus MGs in armories that are basically unsalable and never used. They would much rather clean out the armory and get the $5-25k per gun that they would command on the market.
If someone could harness this argument I think it might be a way to beat the ban.

July 20, 2005, 05:59 AM	#1
Pyrozen Member Join Date: July 19, 2005 Location: Pittsburgh PA Posts: 48	Legal Full Auto Without Special License? Ok, so I have been reading through the full auto forums and have found many varying explanations of this. I have heard there are many different ways/requirements to obtain legal full-auto weapons. 200 dollar tax stamps, class 3 license, and other odd things. Which one of those is it or is it a multitude of different requirements? I was under the impression that you had to have a class 3 license which cost a substantial amount of money and taxes. Can someone please set the record straight for me? Also does my state, Pennsylvania, even offer full auto firearms for purchase to the average civilian?

July 20, 2005, 08:44 AM	#8
shaggy Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2004 Posts: 1,519	Same thing. The legal definition is found in Title 26 (26 USC 5845(b)): The term “machinegun” means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person. If it can fire more than one shot with a single pull of the trigger, its a machinegun.

July 23, 2005, 11:18 AM	#16
swmike Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2005 Location: Marysville, WA Posts: 670	It would appear that Washington State doesn't recognize that option. Here is the Law: "RCW 9.41.190 Unlawful firearms -- Exceptions. (1) It is unlawful for any person to manufacture, own, buy, sell, loan, furnish, transport, or have in possession or under control, any machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle; or any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for use in a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, or in converting a weapon into a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle; or to assemble or repair any machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle. (2) This section shall not apply to: (a) Any peace officer in the discharge of official duty or traveling to or from official duty, or to any officer or member of the armed forces of the United States or the state of Washington in the discharge of official duty or traveling to or from official duty; or (b) A person, including an employee of such person if the employee has undergone fingerprinting and a background check, who or which is exempt from or licensed under federal law, and engaged in the production, manufacture, repair, or testing of machine guns, short-barreled shotguns, or short-barreled rifles: (i) To be used or purchased by the armed forces of the United States; (ii) To be used or purchased by federal, state, county, or municipal law enforcement agencies; or (iii) For exportation in compliance with all applicable federal laws and regulations. (3) It shall be an affirmative defense to a prosecution brought under this section that the machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle was acquired prior to July 1, 1994, and is possessed in compliance with federal law. (4) Any person violating this section is guilty of a class C felony."Unless you are selling to the military, police, or exporting, you can't even have one in your possession. Since there were none registered (no CLEO signoff) prior to the laws effect in '94 that exemption is moot as well. Lets face it, they don't want anyone to have a Class III weapon in Washington, Legally that is. Wonder how many there really are in private hands though. __________________ My definition of Gun Control--- A steady grip and hitting your target. "In God we trust, all others are suspects." "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying, either I won't need any more, or more won't be of any help". ____________________________________________

July 20, 2005, 07:51 AM	#2
shaggy Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2004 Posts: 1,519	The process is fairly simple, though its long and expensive. You need to locate a so-called "transferable" machinegun - one that was made and REGISTERED with BATF prior to May 19, 1986. As an individual (not dealer or manufacturer), you cannot buy pre-sample or post sample MGs. If the gun is out of state, you'll need to have it first transfered to a class 3 dealer in PA. If its in PA, it can be transfered directly to you. Whether it comes from an individual or a dealer in your state, you'll need to do form 4 in duplicate (www.titleii.com), two FBI fingerprint cards (call BATF), one US citizenship certification, and pay a $200 transfer tax. The form 4 will require you to get a signoff from your local CLEO (Chief law Enforcement Officer - usualy a sheriff, DA, or judge with jurisdiction over the place of your residence). If you are an FFL, you can have it transfered directly from out of state to your FFL but all other provisions apply (form 4, CLEO signoff, transfer tax, etc.). If its being transfered to a corporation, you do not need to get fingerprints or the CLEO signoff. A word of caution about corporate ownership however - you absolutely need to keep the corporation alive, pay all franchise taxes, fees, file all corporate taxes, etc. If the corporation dies or ceases to exist you will be in possession of an NFA weapon not registered to YOU (since the corporation is the legal owner). IOW the corporation makes transfers faster and easier, but is more of a headache on an annual basis. PA is a pretty good state for machinegun ownership, though getting a signoff in some of the cities (Philly, Pittsburgh, etc.) can be difficult and may require you to go the corporate route. My dealer has a nice selection of stuff might want to check him out - www.jbarms.com

July 20, 2005, 08:01 AM	#3
Pyrozen Member Join Date: July 19, 2005 Location: Pittsburgh PA Posts: 48	I will definitely check out that dealer and thanks for the good explanation. However it raises a few more questions. What is significant about May 19, 1986? It kind of makes me mad that I can only purchase fully automatic guns that are almost 20 years old.

July 20, 2005, 08:13 AM	#4
shaggy Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2004 Posts: 1,519	On May 19, 1986 the Firearms Owners Protection Act (FOPA '86) took effect. Although it did some good things for gun owners, it ended the new production and registration of full autos for civilians. Thus it froze the numbers in circulation for civilians at the 1986 level and with guns being lost, destroyed, transfered out of the NFA chain (and thus becomming illegal guns subject to seizure) the number is constantly decreasing.

July 20, 2005, 08:18 AM	#5
Pyrozen Member Join Date: July 19, 2005 Location: Pittsburgh PA Posts: 48	Ok now i know the "Assault Weapons" Ban was recently lifted due to its expiry. Assault weapons is in quotes because most of the requirements stated in that act were not actually assault weapon characteristics which I am sure you already know. Will the FOPA ever come under review or expiration like the assault weapons ban and is there anything gun owners and voters can do about it?

July 20, 2005, 08:22 AM	#6
shaggy Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2004 Posts: 1,519	Nope - no expiration date on it and it doesn't look like it'll ever be repealed by Congress (Do you think a majority of Congress would ever commit political suicide by voting to make machineguns legal again?). Unfortunately we are stuck with it.

July 20, 2005, 08:30 AM	#7
Pyrozen Member Join Date: July 19, 2005 Location: Pittsburgh PA Posts: 48	Hmm that's true. It wouldn't be a good political move. The general public's hair stands on end when they hear the word "machine gun". I am just curious then as to if it applies to machine gun's in the technical term or to any fully automatic weapon? I'm making the assumption that a machine gun would be a Browning .30 cal while an AK-47 would be considered an assault rifle. I am just using these weapons as references so I can get the definition of machine gun right. Are the terms machine gun and fully automatic weapon one and the same?

July 20, 2005, 09:00 AM	#9
Pyrozen Member Join Date: July 19, 2005 Location: Pittsburgh PA Posts: 48	Well that's a bummer. Thanks for clearing that up.

July 22, 2005, 02:47 PM	#10
CyberSEAL Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2005 Posts: 161	I'm sorry, but just so that I understand clearly, in order for me to buy a brand new MP5 full-auto, I will need to be an FFL, right?

July 22, 2005, 05:49 PM	#11
Third_Rail Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 2004 Posts: 134	Yes - and being a Class III FFL just to buy and shoot MGs is a big no-no. Just as bad as making MGs yourself, in the eyes of the gov't.

July 22, 2005, 07:24 PM	#12
Stiletto Senior Member Join Date: March 9, 2005 Posts: 388	I thought making your own MG was OK as long as it wasn't for sale?

July 23, 2005, 01:23 AM	#15
Third_Rail Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 2004 Posts: 134	Form a LLC. Then no CLEO signature is needed!

July 24, 2005, 06:10 PM	#17
Marcus Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 1998 Posts: 1,156	LLCs count for the corperate route for certain? Marcus

July 24, 2005, 08:17 PM	#18
boofus Junior member Join Date: May 18, 2004 Location: JesusLand,TX Posts: 371	My Texas LLC owns a FNC, M10/9 and suppressor. Hopefully I will win the lotto soon so it can own more.

September 5, 2005, 01:57 PM	#19
Nighthawk1983 Junior Member Join Date: September 5, 2005 Location: Midwest Posts: 12	what do you need to do as far as forming a legitimate LLC and having it recognized as such?

September 7, 2005, 03:07 AM	#20
3 weelin geezer Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2004 Posts: 438	PM #4 shaggy Senior Member Join Date: 10-09-2004 Location: NYC Posts: 611 On May 19, 1986 the Firearms Owners Protection Act (FOPA '86) took effect. Although it did some good things for gun owners, it ended the new production and registration of full autos for civilians. ________________________________ What good things did it do?

September 7, 2005, 09:04 AM	#21
shaggy Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2004 Posts: 1,519	Believe it or not the NRA helped push the FOPA '86 through and endorsed it. One of the main things it did was to get some protections into the law for gun owners regarding the interstate transportation of firearms. The MG ban was suppossed to be a poison pill added by a few democrats to the original bill, but the NRA thought they could get that provision cleared up later (either in conference committee or by a later bill) and continued to help push the bill into law.

September 21, 2005, 09:58 PM	#23
leadcounsel Junior member Join Date: September 8, 2005 Location: Tacoma, WA Posts: 2,119	Next time you take your AK47 to the range, try thumb bumping. Make sure you have a big backstop and nothing behind it to injure someone. PUt your gun on your hip with your thumb through the trigger. Aim gun at the target. take your support hand and pull forward and keep pulling forward. the recoil of the gun will cause it to fire in full auto. be safe and have fun.