Is this legal? - Page 2

deadin · May 6, 2006, 10:10 AM

Sorry, I meant AOW, not SBR. (Thanks for keeping me from confusing myself.

) 16" bbl <26" OAL = AOW. Right?
My point on the "retractable section" of the barrel is that this isn't really addressed in the regs. You are allowed to add length to a barrel (i.e. weld on a tube) as long as it isn't "removable". My contention is that my flashhider isn't removable from the gun. An argument would be that by sliding it back you would be "removing" it from the barrel length requirement and thereby making a SBR.
I contend that this is, in theory, no different than allowing a 23" OAL (with stock folded) to become OK when the stock is extended.

To confuse the issue even more. Let's take the example that started this discussion. (A M1911 with a "carbine kit" installed, 16" bbl, 23" OAL folded and greater then 26" extended.) This is legal. You can remove the stock completely and you are still legal. Just a long barreled pistol. You could even put my barrel on it and remain legal. When you reinstalled the buttstock, maybe, maybe not.
Now, take basically the same thing, only based on a 10/22 (rifle)action,16" bbl, 23" OAL folded and greater then 26" extended.) Still legal. Remove the buttstock and you're in trouble. i.e. AOW. Add my barrel and who knows? (Probably illegal. The "powers that be" don't like change and would probably automatically say "NO". After once saying "no" trying to get them to admit they might have been wrong is almost impossible.

)

Another question for the regulation experts. What happened to the part of the regs that read something like "designed to fired from the shoulder"?
I understand how even with the stock folded the argument can be made that it is "designed" to be fired from the shoulder, but what about things like the Plainfield Enforcer and the Mossberg Camper? These are 16" (18" for the Camper) barrels and over 26" OAL but have no buttstock of any kind. Just a pistol grip.

Dean

Csspecs · May 6, 2006, 05:54 PM

If they are called pistols can you have a rifle with a 6 inch barrel and no stock without it being a sbr just as long as you get it tagged as a pistol?

And can I build a pistol for myself out of a rifle as long as I do not transfer it as a pistol?

deadin · May 6, 2006, 07:47 PM

My understanding is that when a manufacturer creates a receiver, it is registered either as a pistol or as a rifle when he files his report to the Feds. From that point forward it is as registered, either a pistol or a rifle, never to change. If registered as a rifle it must follow the rules of 16" barrel and 26" OAL. If as a pistol it can be any barrel length, but no buttstock. Anthing else will be either an AOW or SBR and will need special licensing (One may be able to be "remanufactured" by another licensed manufacturer. I don't know for sure) So having a short barrel, no buttstock and calling it a pistol doesn't necessarily make it one. Depends on how it started life.

I don't think you can "build" a pistol out of rifle (see above) unless you are a licensed manufacturer. I believe you can "build' your own firearm from scratch, but cannot transfer it by sale, trade, gift, etc. And I think the above rules still apply. (I would like to hear more about this.)

Some time ago I tried reading the procedure for becoming a manufacturer. All I remember that it was complicated, tedious and expensive.

Dean

MisterPX · May 7, 2006, 08:18 AM

On the pistol thing.. The mfg. will either log the SN part as a pistol and pay excise tax, a rifle and pay excise tax, or a bare receiver and no excise tax. If you have a bare reciever, you can build it into a pistol, as it has never been a rifle.
If the rec. was initial made into a rifle, it may not be converted into a pistol. An initial made pistol may be converted into a rifle, and back.
If you make your own rec. from scratch, you can sell it and transfer it to someone else. You just can't be making them for the intent to sell/transfer. ie, I made an AK rec., and inst'd all the parts to make a full rifle. 8 months down the road, there's no 762x39 to be found, so I sell the AK.

deadin · May 7, 2006, 09:12 AM

Interesting. Where does one buy a "bare" receiver. I assume that at that time the buyer has to "declare" whether it is going to be a pistol or rifle and pay the tax. (I can't imagine the government missing out on their pound of flesh.

)

On making your own. A couple of questions. 1. If you sell it, do you need to "log" it and pay the excise tax? 2. Any idea how many you can make and later decide you don't want and sell before "they" decide you are a manufacturer? (Or is there no limit as long as you aren't making a living at it?)

The reason I'm asking is there is a machinist in my area that has made a number of really neat revolvers in some strange chamberings. He said that he cannot sell any of them. It sounds that if I can convince him that he is tired of one of them, he could sell it. Right?

Dean

Hkmp5sd · May 7, 2006, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Where does one buy a "bare" receiver.

You see them advertised all of the time in SGN. You can also buy them from the manufacturer. Someone around here, forget who, bought a virgin Ruger 10/22 receiver and made a handgun out of it.

smince · May 7, 2006, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Someone around here, forget who, bought a virgin Ruger 10/22 receiver and made a handgun out of it.

I think it was Trapp.

MisterPX · May 7, 2006, 09:38 PM

If you sell a homebuild, there is no excise tax. The guy who made those neat pistols can sell you one, as long as it's not made to order for you, ie; only made for his personal use. I'm not sure how many you can crank out before you're manufacturing, nor can I say how long you should keep one before ditching it. I would sya go with common sense and bettter judgement, making and selling a gun once a week, or even once a month probably wouldn't be a good idea.
When buying a bare rec., it won't fit into any of the 4473 categories. You're fine running it in the rifle checkbox, but for added assurance, you may decide to just have them run in the Pistol box.

May 6, 2006, 10:10 AM	#26
deadin Junior member Join Date: September 6, 2005 Location: Ocean Shores, WA Posts: 1,052	Sorry, I meant AOW, not SBR. (Thanks for keeping me from confusing myself. ) 16" bbl <26" OAL = AOW. Right? My point on the "retractable section" of the barrel is that this isn't really addressed in the regs. You are allowed to add length to a barrel (i.e. weld on a tube) as long as it isn't "removable". My contention is that my flashhider isn't removable from the gun. An argument would be that by sliding it back you would be "removing" it from the barrel length requirement and thereby making a SBR. I contend that this is, in theory, no different than allowing a 23" OAL (with stock folded) to become OK when the stock is extended. To confuse the issue even more. Let's take the example that started this discussion. (A M1911 with a "carbine kit" installed, 16" bbl, 23" OAL folded and greater then 26" extended.) This is legal. You can remove the stock completely and you are still legal. Just a long barreled pistol. You could even put my barrel on it and remain legal. When you reinstalled the buttstock, maybe, maybe not. Now, take basically the same thing, only based on a 10/22 (rifle)action,16" bbl, 23" OAL folded and greater then 26" extended.) Still legal. Remove the buttstock and you're in trouble. i.e. AOW. Add my barrel and who knows? (Probably illegal. The "powers that be" don't like change and would probably automatically say "NO". After once saying "no" trying to get them to admit they might have been wrong is almost impossible. ) Another question for the regulation experts. What happened to the part of the regs that read something like "designed to fired from the shoulder"? I understand how even with the stock folded the argument can be made that it is "designed" to be fired from the shoulder, but what about things like the Plainfield Enforcer and the Mossberg Camper? These are 16" (18" for the Camper) barrels and over 26" OAL but have no buttstock of any kind. Just a pistol grip. Dean

May 6, 2006, 05:54 PM	#27
Csspecs Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2005 Posts: 1,111	If they are called pistols can you have a rifle with a 6 inch barrel and no stock without it being a sbr just as long as you get it tagged as a pistol? And can I build a pistol for myself out of a rifle as long as I do not transfer it as a pistol?

May 6, 2006, 07:47 PM	#28
deadin Junior member Join Date: September 6, 2005 Location: Ocean Shores, WA Posts: 1,052	My understanding is that when a manufacturer creates a receiver, it is registered either as a pistol or as a rifle when he files his report to the Feds. From that point forward it is as registered, either a pistol or a rifle, never to change. If registered as a rifle it must follow the rules of 16" barrel and 26" OAL. If as a pistol it can be any barrel length, but no buttstock. Anthing else will be either an AOW or SBR and will need special licensing (One may be able to be "remanufactured" by another licensed manufacturer. I don't know for sure) So having a short barrel, no buttstock and calling it a pistol doesn't necessarily make it one. Depends on how it started life. I don't think you can "build" a pistol out of rifle (see above) unless you are a licensed manufacturer. I believe you can "build' your own firearm from scratch, but cannot transfer it by sale, trade, gift, etc. And I think the above rules still apply. (I would like to hear more about this.) Some time ago I tried reading the procedure for becoming a manufacturer. All I remember that it was complicated, tedious and expensive. Dean

May 7, 2006, 08:18 AM	#29
MisterPX Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2006 Location: Amerika's Doyleland Posts: 809	On the pistol thing.. The mfg. will either log the SN part as a pistol and pay excise tax, a rifle and pay excise tax, or a bare receiver and no excise tax. If you have a bare reciever, you can build it into a pistol, as it has never been a rifle. If the rec. was initial made into a rifle, it may not be converted into a pistol. An initial made pistol may be converted into a rifle, and back. If you make your own rec. from scratch, you can sell it and transfer it to someone else. You just can't be making them for the intent to sell/transfer. ie, I made an AK rec., and inst'd all the parts to make a full rifle. 8 months down the road, there's no 762x39 to be found, so I sell the AK.

May 7, 2006, 09:12 AM	#30
deadin Junior member Join Date: September 6, 2005 Location: Ocean Shores, WA Posts: 1,052	Interesting. Where does one buy a "bare" receiver. I assume that at that time the buyer has to "declare" whether it is going to be a pistol or rifle and pay the tax. (I can't imagine the government missing out on their pound of flesh. ) On making your own. A couple of questions. 1. If you sell it, do you need to "log" it and pay the excise tax? 2. Any idea how many you can make and later decide you don't want and sell before "they" decide you are a manufacturer? (Or is there no limit as long as you aren't making a living at it?) The reason I'm asking is there is a machinist in my area that has made a number of really neat revolvers in some strange chamberings. He said that he cannot sell any of them. It sounds that if I can convince him that he is tired of one of them, he could sell it. Right? Dean

May 7, 2006, 09:38 PM	#33
MisterPX Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2006 Location: Amerika's Doyleland Posts: 809	If you sell a homebuild, there is no excise tax. The guy who made those neat pistols can sell you one, as long as it's not made to order for you, ie; only made for his personal use. I'm not sure how many you can crank out before you're manufacturing, nor can I say how long you should keep one before ditching it. I would sya go with common sense and bettter judgement, making and selling a gun once a week, or even once a month probably wouldn't be a good idea. When buying a bare rec., it won't fit into any of the 4473 categories. You're fine running it in the rifle checkbox, but for added assurance, you may decide to just have them run in the Pistol box.