1911 Frame Modification

redlightrich · February 10, 2024, 07:34 PM

Hi all, I realize most will just say sell it but I want to change it if I can. I have a Ruger SR 1911 Talo, with a rail. I like the gun, hate the rail. Is there anyone who could recommend a smith or metal worker who can remove my rail? The frame has enough metal, as I measured it against my other 1911's. It would require some skill to remove some metal and shape it properly. If anyone has any contacts to get this done, or any ideas outside of selling it, I would greatly appreciate it. I am in PA, but I guess I could ship it to a smith.

Ty

Rich

**Aguila Blanca** · February 10, 2024, 10:12 PM

You can download the Ordnance Department blueprints for the M1911A1. With the frame drawings (two sheets) in hand, any decent machine shop should be able to chuck the frame up on a Bridgeport milling machine and carve away the rail bits.

https://archive.org/details/1911-blueprints-complete

Disclaimer: I don't know if doing this would be considered "gunsmithing" under the law and require that the shop or individual have an FFL. They certainly would need an FFL if you were going to drop off the entire pistol -- if you strip it at home and just take them the bare frame, I don't know if that avoids the need for an FFL.

**44 AMP** · February 10, 2024, 10:39 PM

re: Disclaimer...

It might be worth checking with the ATF (assuming you trust their answer

)

a bare frame or receiver (the serial numbered part) IS a firearm for most purposes. You can also check with your local gunsmiths, if you drop off a stripped frame for some kind of work (say checkering the front strap or something) don't they have to log it in their books the same as if it were an entire, complete firearm? I think they do.

Current FFL holders, please correct me, if I'm in error on this.

**Aguila Blanca** · February 10, 2024, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

a bare frame or receiver (the serial numbered part) IS a firearm for most purposes. You can also check with your local gunsmiths, if you drop off a stripped frame for some kind of work (say checkering the front strap or something) don't they have to log it in their books the same as if it were an entire, complete firearm? I think they do.

That's kind of why I added the disclaimer. One caveat, I think, is that if the frame can be brought in, completed, and returned to the owner the same day I don't think it has to be entered in the bound book. However, since the frame is "the firearm," doing the machining might still legally require an FFL license.

It's one of those issues where figuring out the legality is more complicated than doing the work.

rc · February 10, 2024, 11:31 PM

Sounds like a gun swap would be more practical. Sell what you don't want and buy what you do want.

Jim Watson · February 11, 2024, 09:16 AM

I would contact Jim Milks dba Innovative Custom Guns in New Enterprise, PA.
http://www.innovativecustomguns.com/p/contact-us.html

He has a long list of services with the wild card:
"We do all types of custom machinig. From 1 off parts to machining from your ideas or prints."

Removing the searchlight rail and forming a smooth dust cover would not likely be difficult for him.

**4V50 Gary** · February 11, 2024, 02:39 PM

You can use a file. Hold a straight edge along the length of the metal, mark with permarker and file off to keep it even. Make a plastic template that you can slide over the filed area to make sure it is consistent too.

Now, if there are markings that the ATF would frown upon, I wouldn't touch them.

Dfariswheel · February 12, 2024, 04:04 PM

Sawing and filing the rail off is entirely do-able.
You can carefully use a grinder and saw to cut away chunks then use files to bring it to shape and finish.

Once, somewhat against my will, I converted a S&W Model 617 .22 to a half-shroud barrel.
I used a saw to make horizontal slots in the shroud then sawed those off and finished with files.
It was nerve wracking because I had to do it in someone's garage shop.

WmMunny · February 12, 2024, 06:23 PM

Easiest solution is just sell it and buy what you want...

redlightrich · February 12, 2024, 08:40 PM

Thank you all for the replies. I do realize I can sell and buy, but like I said, I would rather modify this one. I will definitely call innovative to see if they are interested. I have a mill, and a lathe and a bunch of files, and I actually know how to use them all, but I do know my limitations. I realize it isn't cost effective, but it would be worth it to me. Every circumstance is different. If I can't get it done, I will live with it as is. I just really hate the rail. I love 1911's as I have 9 or so. Rails don't belong on a 1911. I am not even sure why I bought it. I am sure we all bought guns that we wish we didn't!!

Ty

Rich

tangolima · February 12, 2024, 10:42 PM

Not trying to talk you out of it. But you may screw up and destroy a pistol someone may find perfect for his need. You despise the rail, but there must be someone who is looking for just that.

After modification, don't forget you will need to refinish it.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

rmh3481 · February 13, 2024, 04:43 AM

I would buy a second frame rather than modify the first one. This way one of my Son's could change it back if something happened to me. There are as many companies making frames as there are 45's. You might want to try something exotic like Aluminum or Titanium?

redlightrich · February 13, 2024, 09:41 AM

Thank you again, unfortunately, the more I ponder it, the less it makes sense to mod this frame. I can buy a new frame for probably the same cost when I factor in refinishing.. If I felt I could do it myself, and make it look perfect, then I would try, but somehow, I think the dust cover will look wavy, and that will bother me. I guess I can buy a rotating fixture for my mill, but that would cost more than a frame.

Over the years, I have bought a few guns that I wish I would have chosen more carefully. This is one. Luckily that doesn't happen often.

Rich

**44 AMP** · February 13, 2024, 03:12 PM

Quote:

I have a Ruger SR 1911 Talo, with a rail.

A couple of points to consider, since you have a Ruger...

First, about buying an "aftermarket" frame. It MAY not fit. I do not know about the Ruger 1911s but I do know some makers of "1911" guns have
"proprietary" frames. My son's S&W is like that. Uses stock spec GI magazines, but at least some of the other parts are just enough different that you must use parts made specifically for that make & model gun.

While I didn't do a detailed investigation of my son's pistol (S&W 1911PD) I did check it out, and industry standard grips will not fit it.

On that gun, the grip screw bushings are about 1/8" farther apart than GI/Colt spec guns, so standard grip panels will not fit. You must use grips made for that S&W gun.

As I said, I don't know for sure about the Rugers but I think it is likely they did something similar, and its something you should check into. Its not impossible some of the other parts / Frame dimensions are "Ruger Only" and do not interchange with "regular" parts. IF this IS the case, buying someone else's frame hoping to put your Ruger parts on/in it might be a waste of money.

Another thing to consider is Ruger's repair policy. From what I understand, the current policy (and has been for the past few years) is that if you send your gun to Ruger for any work, they will return the gun to the condition it left the factory, which MIGHT mean if your frame modified gun goes to Ruger , it might come back with an original configuration frame. And, it might have your frame's serial # on it, with Ruger keeping (and destroying) your modified frame. It is within their legal authority to do that.

Just a couple of things to keep in mind.....

Jim Watson · February 13, 2024, 04:06 PM

You may consider a rail unsightly, just think that you can't see is through the sights.

DT Guy · February 13, 2024, 10:58 PM

While the removal of the rail is, in theory, simple, the actual completion of removing it and having it symmetrical, square and matching in surface finish is actually quite complex.

I have a mill, a knifemaker's belt grinder and hundreds of hours experience with both, and I would expect a 50/50 chance (or worse) of an acceptable result.

If you're OK risking the frame, press on. If you're not, consider the 'sell and rebuy' advice so many have offered.

Larry

redlightrich · February 14, 2024, 07:14 PM

Hello all again. Jim Watson, thank you. Jim from Innovative has replied to me. He said he has done this before and it will not be a problem.

So, now that I know I can have it done, I have to ask myself, Should I?

It's probably a good excuse to get another 1911. Maybe my taste will change again and I will like it, like when I bought it. I have 9. I don't think you can have too many 1911's.

Anyway, Innovative has an impressive list of services available.

Thank you again

Rich

February 10, 2024, 07:34 PM	#1
redlightrich Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2016 Posts: 323	1911 Frame Modification Hi all, I realize most will just say sell it but I want to change it if I can. I have a Ruger SR 1911 Talo, with a rail. I like the gun, hate the rail. Is there anyone who could recommend a smith or metal worker who can remove my rail? The frame has enough metal, as I measured it against my other 1911's. It would require some skill to remove some metal and shape it properly. If anyone has any contacts to get this done, or any ideas outside of selling it, I would greatly appreciate it. I am in PA, but I guess I could ship it to a smith. Ty Rich

February 10, 2024, 10:12 PM	#2
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,477	You can download the Ordnance Department blueprints for the M1911A1. With the frame drawings (two sheets) in hand, any decent machine shop should be able to chuck the frame up on a Bridgeport milling machine and carve away the rail bits. https://archive.org/details/1911-blueprints-complete Disclaimer: I don't know if doing this would be considered "gunsmithing" under the law and require that the shop or individual have an FFL. They certainly would need an FFL if you were going to drop off the entire pistol -- if you strip it at home and just take them the bare frame, I don't know if that avoids the need for an FFL. __________________ NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO 1911 Certified Armorer Jeepaholic

February 10, 2024, 10:39 PM	#3
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,860	re: Disclaimer... It might be worth checking with the ATF (assuming you trust their answer ) a bare frame or receiver (the serial numbered part) IS a firearm for most purposes. You can also check with your local gunsmiths, if you drop off a stripped frame for some kind of work (say checkering the front strap or something) don't they have to log it in their books the same as if it were an entire, complete firearm? I think they do. Current FFL holders, please correct me, if I'm in error on this. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 11, 2024, 02:39 PM	#7
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,847	You can use a file. Hold a straight edge along the length of the metal, mark with permarker and file off to keep it even. Make a plastic template that you can slide over the filed area to make sure it is consistent too. Now, if there are markings that the ATF would frown upon, I wouldn't touch them. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

February 13, 2024, 10:58 PM	#16
DT Guy Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2001 Posts: 959	While the removal of the rail is, in theory, simple, the actual completion of removing it and having it symmetrical, square and matching in surface finish is actually quite complex. I have a mill, a knifemaker's belt grinder and hundreds of hours experience with both, and I would expect a 50/50 chance (or worse) of an acceptable result. If you're OK risking the frame, press on. If you're not, consider the 'sell and rebuy' advice so many have offered. Larry __________________ He who fights and runs away had better run pretty damn fast. Government, Anarchy and Chaos

February 10, 2024, 11:31 PM	#5
rc Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2001 Location: CA Posts: 1,769	Sounds like a gun swap would be more practical. Sell what you don't want and buy what you do want.

February 11, 2024, 09:16 AM	#6
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,545	I would contact Jim Milks dba Innovative Custom Guns in New Enterprise, PA. http://www.innovativecustomguns.com/p/contact-us.html He has a long list of services with the wild card: "We do all types of custom machinig. From 1 off parts to machining from your ideas or prints." Removing the searchlight rail and forming a smooth dust cover would not likely be difficult for him.

February 12, 2024, 04:04 PM	#8
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	Sawing and filing the rail off is entirely do-able. You can carefully use a grinder and saw to cut away chunks then use files to bring it to shape and finish. Once, somewhat against my will, I converted a S&W Model 617 .22 to a half-shroud barrel. I used a saw to make horizontal slots in the shroud then sawed those off and finished with files. It was nerve wracking because I had to do it in someone's garage shop.

February 12, 2024, 06:23 PM	#9
WmMunny Member Join Date: October 23, 2021 Location: Deep South Posts: 72	Easiest solution is just sell it and buy what you want...

February 12, 2024, 08:40 PM	#10
redlightrich Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2016 Posts: 323	Thank you all for the replies. I do realize I can sell and buy, but like I said, I would rather modify this one. I will definitely call innovative to see if they are interested. I have a mill, and a lathe and a bunch of files, and I actually know how to use them all, but I do know my limitations. I realize it isn't cost effective, but it would be worth it to me. Every circumstance is different. If I can't get it done, I will live with it as is. I just really hate the rail. I love 1911's as I have 9 or so. Rails don't belong on a 1911. I am not even sure why I bought it. I am sure we all bought guns that we wish we didn't!! Ty Rich

February 12, 2024, 10:42 PM	#11
tangolima Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2013 Posts: 3,833	Not trying to talk you out of it. But you may screw up and destroy a pistol someone may find perfect for his need. You despise the rail, but there must be someone who is looking for just that. After modification, don't forget you will need to refinish it. -TL Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

February 13, 2024, 04:43 AM	#12
rmh3481 Member Join Date: August 25, 2015 Location: Western Pa Posts: 53	I would buy a second frame rather than modify the first one. This way one of my Son's could change it back if something happened to me. There are as many companies making frames as there are 45's. You might want to try something exotic like Aluminum or Titanium?

February 13, 2024, 09:41 AM	#13
redlightrich Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2016 Posts: 323	Thank you again, unfortunately, the more I ponder it, the less it makes sense to mod this frame. I can buy a new frame for probably the same cost when I factor in refinishing.. If I felt I could do it myself, and make it look perfect, then I would try, but somehow, I think the dust cover will look wavy, and that will bother me. I guess I can buy a rotating fixture for my mill, but that would cost more than a frame. Over the years, I have bought a few guns that I wish I would have chosen more carefully. This is one. Luckily that doesn't happen often. Rich

February 13, 2024, 04:06 PM	#15
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,545	You may consider a rail unsightly, just think that you can't see is through the sights.

February 14, 2024, 07:14 PM	#17
redlightrich Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2016 Posts: 323	Hello all again. Jim Watson, thank you. Jim from Innovative has replied to me. He said he has done this before and it will not be a problem. So, now that I know I can have it done, I have to ask myself, Should I? It's probably a good excuse to get another 1911. Maybe my taste will change again and I will like it, like when I bought it. I have 9. I don't think you can have too many 1911's. Anyway, Innovative has an impressive list of services available. Thank you again Rich