what are the pros of all-metal-framed handguns?

simonrichter · June 4, 2020, 07:46 AM

Despite the surge of poly handguns (there are even some revolvers in the meantime...), it appears that metal-framed handguns (steel, aluminium, maybe even zamac) are still defending a significant market share.

Is there any practical rationale behind an all-metal gun apart from aesthetics and the general appeal of classics that are simply made that way?

ligonierbill · June 4, 2020, 08:08 AM

They're heavy. That's bad news for carrying, good news for shooting. I have two 40 S&W pistols, a Glock 23 and a recently acquired S&W 4006 (one of the CHP versions). The Glock is definitely livelier ("snappy"). Day at the range, take the 4006. But you'd want a duty belt to carry it. I think there is also a perception of durability, not warranted in my opinion.

kozak6 · June 4, 2020, 08:23 AM

Sure.

Zamak is readily die-cast, just like a Hot Wheels car.

Aluminum is readily CNC-ed. For a new pistol with an uncertain future, it might be cheaper to CNC the whole frame out of aluminum rather than to just CNC a subframe and sink six figures on poly frame production.

Probably the biggest advantage is that all metal guns are heavier, and heavier guns have less felt recoil.

Check out Sig's TXG grip module. Tungsten infused plastic.

peterg7 · June 4, 2020, 08:47 AM

Except for nostalgia I see no benefit.

I sold my 4566 to buy a Shield9 and now all my CC guns are plastic.

No looking back now.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

stinkeypete · June 4, 2020, 11:04 AM

Longevity. Check out the prices on 100 year old Smith and Wesson revolvers or 100 year old 1911's. Both shoot great. What do you think a 100 year old Glock will be worth as a shooter?

Metal to metal tight rail fit adds to accuracy and importantly adds to holding that accuracy as loose rails bounce about and get looser and looser with use. (*Accuracy measured as in a few inches at 50 yards and use is in the ten thousands of rounds)

Weight. Holding down recoil for following shots and soaking up recoil because your hand will thank you after a couple boxes of ammo.

The advantage of polymer pistols is low production cost and light weight. As time goes on, I can't see injection molding becoming a lost art. Gunsmithing is already a dying art yet the appreciation for a better handgun will be there. I think high end metal guns will continue to enjoy a higher resale value than plastic. Really, are Gen 1 glocks worth more than gen 3's?

NoSecondBest · June 4, 2020, 11:18 AM

Other than weight for carry, there's no advantage to poly over steel. I own both and still like a well machined steel handgun for hunting and target shooting.

RickB · June 4, 2020, 11:47 AM

I have a half-dozen all-steel handguns that are over 100 years old, and they function like new.
Let's see what a 120yo Glock looks like, and then decide how fantastic that plastic is.

The siding on my house had a 50yr warranty, on a product that had been in existence for only five years, and I look at the durability of plastic handgun parts with a similar bit of skepticism.

ballardw · June 4, 2020, 12:29 PM

When you run out of ammo metal pistols make better impact weapons than plastic.

You can drive nails with steel pistols though easier with revolvers. Check your local Colt single action collector for tales of woe about finding pistols with evidence of this.

**44 AMP** · June 4, 2020, 01:11 PM

Quote:

When you run out of ammo metal pistols make better impact weapons than plastic.

This is a point for me. When all else fails, when everything goes horribly wrong, your pistol IS an impact weapon. And, given that, admittedly remote, possibility, I prefer something with some heft to it, and am willing to put up with carrying something heavier, in order to have it.

(and if you don't think your pistol is an impact weapon, watch some of the old B&W Superman tv shows. Superman stands there, and lets bullets bounce off his mighty chest, but when the bad guy throws the empty gun at him, he ducks!!!

jar · June 4, 2020, 03:28 PM

Made in 1906. Carried as my primary last week.

DMK · June 4, 2020, 04:40 PM

Full size steel frame, 22LR. Recoil is almost like shooting a pellet gun.

DMK · June 4, 2020, 04:47 PM

125gr .357 magnum out of a lightweight alloy revolver? No thank you!

Out of this big chunk of stainless steel SP-101? That's a lot of fun!

**Aguila Blanca** · June 4, 2020, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simonrichter

Is there any practical rationale behind an all-metal gun apart from aesthetics and the general appeal of classics that are simply made that way?

I view it the other way:

I own some all-metal handguns (other than the grips), and I own a couple or rifles that are metal actions with wood furniture. They have been doing their job for a good many years. Some of the handguns are approaching 100 years old, and my grandfathers old .22 rifle is more than a century old and still considerably more accurate than a relatively modern copy of the same design.

Why would I consider a plastic gun? Why should I consider a plastic gun? I have seen enough plastic products -- everything from roofing membranes to automobile parts to household appliances -- to know that plastics simply don't stand up to the test of time. The bottom line, for me, is that I simply don't trust plastic for something I may need to defend my life.

Forte S+W · June 4, 2020, 09:27 PM

As much as I like all metal firearms, I can't help but roll my eyes whenever makes arguments in regards to longevity. Even if a Glock frame will fail within 100 years, what difference does it make? They're easily replaced at negligible cost.

Polymer framed pistols have been around since 1970, that was 50 years ago, and there are still plenty of old H&K VP70s in proper working order, so I can think of no reason to expect tbat the polymer used in more modern designs like the Glock won't last even longer.

Personally, I like metal-framed pistols better because they tend to be better shooters and that's good enough for me.

stinkeypete · June 4, 2020, 09:57 PM

No vp70’s on gunbroker at the moment...

**44 AMP** · June 5, 2020, 03:40 AM

Other than I KNOW steel lasts, I don't see the longevity issue as a telling one. I don't buy pistols with the intent of future generations using them, though I expect they will be able to.

I've got 100+ year old firearms in perfect working order, and I'm not terribly concerned about how long a non metal frame pistol will last.

What concerns me more is what they are. And, what they are, isn't "my cuppa"...I've handled and shot several Glocks, M&Ps and similar styles and I don't care for them.

They're probably fine for people who's experience begins and ends with them, but I don't see how anyone who knows what a fine handgun is, would be happy with one.

If you're one of the "my gun is a tool and I don't give a crap about anything other than it working" guys, that's fine. I'm not.

Every metal frame pistol doesn't make my heart sing, but a few really do. Haven't seen a polymer frame one yet that stirs me beyond "meh..." and some don't even do that.

So, what's the advantage to a metal frame pistol? For me, its the fact that I LIKE THEM, and for me, that's what matters most.

peacefulgary · June 5, 2020, 06:27 AM

The tree huggers tell me that a thin plastic grocery bag will take hundreds, if not thousands, of years to bio-degrade.

If this is even remotely true, I don't think a Glock frame will fail for at least 200 years.
Glock put steel where steel is needed and plastic where steel was not needed.

URIT · June 5, 2020, 08:48 AM

I own some plastic but prefer all-metal pistols for both range and EDC.

I like the heft and sense of balance I get from my all-metal pistols. I also like the feedback or pulse I feel when shooting them. For me, it is easier to ride the recoil wave with my metal vs plastic pistols.

I suspect that carrying revolvers on and off duty for 33 years might have influenced me to lean toward the all-metal pistols.

ThomasT · June 5, 2020, 11:22 AM

I like the looks and feel of an all metal gun. I just sent my son who lives in Florida my old S&W model 915 I got for almost free. He now wants a Canik or whatever they are called. In hind sight I should have sent him my SW9VE instead. I think he would have liked it better and I regret the loss of the 915. I like double action/single action autos.

There is just something about a well made steel gun. It says quality to me. I have three plastic framed guns and they do the job they were meant to do. But they just don't give me the pride of ownership I get with a metal gun.

Loupgarou · June 5, 2020, 11:46 AM

My S&W K .38 Special Target Masterpiece. Made in 1955, before S&W began numbering its models. Shoots as new. Great range revolver.

reppans · June 5, 2020, 02:10 PM

Safety...

I couldn’t carry my Glocks anymore after converting to AIWB and violating rule #2 24/7 - just couldn’t get comfortable with the idea of the striker being ‘partially cocked’, or that their internal safeties are dependent upon a precise interface between the metal slide and plastic frame. Every time I bent over to tie my shoe laces, with my gut trying to bend the gun around my belt, it just made me just cringed.

Some examples of Glock ADs in this thread... primarily due to broken frame rail that upset that precise slide/frame interface:
https://sigtalk.com/p250-p320-p320-x...ure.html?amp=1

simonrichter · June 5, 2020, 02:38 PM

Quote:

I couldn’t carry my Glocks anymore after converting to AIWB and violating rule #2 24/7 - just couldn’t get comfortable with the idea of the striker being ‘partially cocked’, or that their internal safeties are dependent upon a precise interface between the metal slide and plastic frame. Every time I bent over to tie my shoe laces, with my gut trying to bend the gun around my belt, it just made me just cringed.

though it's somewhat compulsory to be a Glock fan as both Austrian and member of their Armed Forces, I'm absolutely able to relate to that... Whenever I carried or kept ready a Glock privately, I did so the Israeli way, half loaded and ready to rapidly rack...

Kreyzhorse · June 5, 2020, 04:30 PM

They are heavier and that amounts to less recoil. A good gun belt will make the additional carry weight a non issue as well.

Drm50 · June 5, 2020, 05:41 PM

A thousand years from now when explorers from another planet are poking around in our ruble they will find two cases. They will open the first one and it will be full of a sticky substance similar to sheep snot. That would be what’s left of one of the plastic fantastics. The other they will find a 1911 45. This will put them down in the jaws because they can still be bought new and don’t have much collector value.

ballardw · June 5, 2020, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drm50

A thousand years from now when explorers from another planet are poking around in our ruble they will find two cases. They will open the first one and it will be full of a sticky substance similar to sheep snot. That would be what’s left of one of the plastic fantastics. The other they will find a 1911 45. This will put them down in the jaws because they can still be bought new and don’t have much collector value.

A 1911 figures prominently in one part of a David Weber book about Honor Harrington set about the year 4000AD.

June 4, 2020, 07:46 AM	#1
simonrichter Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2011 Location: Austria Posts: 758	what are the pros of all-metal-framed handguns? Despite the surge of poly handguns (there are even some revolvers in the meantime...), it appears that metal-framed handguns (steel, aluminium, maybe even zamac) are still defending a significant market share. Is there any practical rationale behind an all-metal gun apart from aesthetics and the general appeal of classics that are simply made that way? __________________ "Get off of my lawn!" Walt Kowalski . ISSC PAR .223

June 4, 2020, 11:47 AM	#7
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	I have a half-dozen all-steel handguns that are over 100 years old, and they function like new. Let's see what a 120yo Glock looks like, and then decide how fantastic that plastic is. The siding on my house had a 50yr warranty, on a product that had been in existence for only five years, and I look at the durability of plastic handgun parts with a similar bit of skepticism. __________________ Runs off at the mouth about anything 1911 related on this site and half the time is flat out wrong.

June 4, 2020, 12:29 PM	#8
ballardw Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 1,411	When you run out of ammo metal pistols make better impact weapons than plastic. You can drive nails with steel pistols though easier with revolvers. Check your local Colt single action collector for tales of woe about finding pistols with evidence of this. __________________ -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ All data is flawed, some just less so.

June 4, 2020, 03:28 PM	#10
jar Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2001 Location: Deep South Texas Posts: 1,670	Made in 1906. Carried as my primary last week. __________________ To be vintage it's gotta be older than me!

June 4, 2020, 09:27 PM	#14
Forte S+W Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2019 Posts: 819	As much as I like all metal firearms, I can't help but roll my eyes whenever makes arguments in regards to longevity. Even if a Glock frame will fail within 100 years, what difference does it make? They're easily replaced at negligible cost. Polymer framed pistols have been around since 1970, that was 50 years ago, and there are still plenty of old H&K VP70s in proper working order, so I can think of no reason to expect tbat the polymer used in more modern designs like the Glock won't last even longer. Personally, I like metal-framed pistols better because they tend to be better shooters and that's good enough for me. __________________ Conspiracy theorists are the greatest political spin-doctors of all time. Only they can make the absolute worst political blunders sound like spectacular feats of ingenuity.

June 4, 2020, 08:08 AM	#2
ligonierbill Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2007 Posts: 2,458	They're heavy. That's bad news for carrying, good news for shooting. I have two 40 S&W pistols, a Glock 23 and a recently acquired S&W 4006 (one of the CHP versions). The Glock is definitely livelier ("snappy"). Day at the range, take the 4006. But you'd want a duty belt to carry it. I think there is also a perception of durability, not warranted in my opinion.

June 4, 2020, 08:23 AM	#3
kozak6 Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2005 Location: AZ Posts: 3,113	Sure. Zamak is readily die-cast, just like a Hot Wheels car. Aluminum is readily CNC-ed. For a new pistol with an uncertain future, it might be cheaper to CNC the whole frame out of aluminum rather than to just CNC a subframe and sink six figures on poly frame production. Probably the biggest advantage is that all metal guns are heavier, and heavier guns have less felt recoil. Check out Sig's TXG grip module. Tungsten infused plastic.

June 4, 2020, 08:47 AM	#4
peterg7 Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2017 Posts: 316	Except for nostalgia I see no benefit. I sold my 4566 to buy a Shield9 and now all my CC guns are plastic. No looking back now. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

June 4, 2020, 11:04 AM	#5
stinkeypete Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2010 Location: Madison, Wisconsin Posts: 1,293	Longevity. Check out the prices on 100 year old Smith and Wesson revolvers or 100 year old 1911's. Both shoot great. What do you think a 100 year old Glock will be worth as a shooter? Metal to metal tight rail fit adds to accuracy and importantly adds to holding that accuracy as loose rails bounce about and get looser and looser with use. (*Accuracy measured as in a few inches at 50 yards and use is in the ten thousands of rounds) Weight. Holding down recoil for following shots and soaking up recoil because your hand will thank you after a couple boxes of ammo. The advantage of polymer pistols is low production cost and light weight. As time goes on, I can't see injection molding becoming a lost art. Gunsmithing is already a dying art yet the appreciation for a better handgun will be there. I think high end metal guns will continue to enjoy a higher resale value than plastic. Really, are Gen 1 glocks worth more than gen 3's?

June 4, 2020, 11:18 AM	#6
NoSecondBest Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Western New York Posts: 2,736	Other than weight for carry, there's no advantage to poly over steel. I own both and still like a well machined steel handgun for hunting and target shooting.

June 4, 2020, 09:57 PM	#15
stinkeypete Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2010 Location: Madison, Wisconsin Posts: 1,293	No vp70’s on gunbroker at the moment...

June 5, 2020, 03:40 AM	#16
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,849	Other than I KNOW steel lasts, I don't see the longevity issue as a telling one. I don't buy pistols with the intent of future generations using them, though I expect they will be able to. I've got 100+ year old firearms in perfect working order, and I'm not terribly concerned about how long a non metal frame pistol will last. What concerns me more is what they are. And, what they are, isn't "my cuppa"...I've handled and shot several Glocks, M&Ps and similar styles and I don't care for them. They're probably fine for people who's experience begins and ends with them, but I don't see how anyone who knows what a fine handgun is, would be happy with one. If you're one of the "my gun is a tool and I don't give a crap about anything other than it working" guys, that's fine. I'm not. Every metal frame pistol doesn't make my heart sing, but a few really do. Haven't seen a polymer frame one yet that stirs me beyond "meh..." and some don't even do that. So, what's the advantage to a metal frame pistol? For me, its the fact that I LIKE THEM, and for me, that's what matters most. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

June 5, 2020, 06:27 AM	#17
peacefulgary Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 714	The tree huggers tell me that a thin plastic grocery bag will take hundreds, if not thousands, of years to bio-degrade. If this is even remotely true, I don't think a Glock frame will fail for at least 200 years. Glock put steel where steel is needed and plastic where steel was not needed.

June 5, 2020, 08:48 AM	#18
URIT Member Join Date: February 7, 2020 Location: Coastal North Carolina Posts: 52	I own some plastic but prefer all-metal pistols for both range and EDC. I like the heft and sense of balance I get from my all-metal pistols. I also like the feedback or pulse I feel when shooting them. For me, it is easier to ride the recoil wave with my metal vs plastic pistols. I suspect that carrying revolvers on and off duty for 33 years might have influenced me to lean toward the all-metal pistols.

June 5, 2020, 11:22 AM	#19
ThomasT Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 2,753	I like the looks and feel of an all metal gun. I just sent my son who lives in Florida my old S&W model 915 I got for almost free. He now wants a Canik or whatever they are called. In hind sight I should have sent him my SW9VE instead. I think he would have liked it better and I regret the loss of the 915. I like double action/single action autos. There is just something about a well made steel gun. It says quality to me. I have three plastic framed guns and they do the job they were meant to do. But they just don't give me the pride of ownership I get with a metal gun.

June 5, 2020, 11:46 AM	#20
Loupgarou Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2002 Location: Nunya Posts: 113	My S&W K .38 Special Target Masterpiece. Made in 1955, before S&W began numbering its models. Shoots as new. Great range revolver. __________________ I know who I am. I'm the dude playing the dude disguised as another dude.

June 5, 2020, 02:10 PM	#21
reppans Member Join Date: June 19, 2011 Posts: 69	Safety... I couldn’t carry my Glocks anymore after converting to AIWB and violating rule #2 24/7 - just couldn’t get comfortable with the idea of the striker being ‘partially cocked’, or that their internal safeties are dependent upon a precise interface between the metal slide and plastic frame. Every time I bent over to tie my shoe laces, with my gut trying to bend the gun around my belt, it just made me just cringed. Some examples of Glock ADs in this thread... primarily due to broken frame rail that upset that precise slide/frame interface: https://sigtalk.com/p250-p320-p320-x...ure.html?amp=1

June 5, 2020, 04:30 PM	#23
Kreyzhorse Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2006 Location: NKY Posts: 12,463	They are heavier and that amounts to less recoil. A good gun belt will make the additional carry weight a non issue as well. __________________ "He who laughs last, laughs dead." Homer Simpson

June 5, 2020, 05:41 PM	#24
Drm50 Senior Member Join Date: November 10, 2014 Posts: 1,382	A thousand years from now when explorers from another planet are poking around in our ruble they will find two cases. They will open the first one and it will be full of a sticky substance similar to sheep snot. That would be what’s left of one of the plastic fantastics. The other they will find a 1911 45. This will put them down in the jaws because they can still be bought new and don’t have much collector value.