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#1 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 26, 2005
Location: The Bluegrass
Posts: 9,149
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Bill passes Kentucky Senate to allow concealed carry without license
Kentucky has constitutional open carry and "shall issue" concealed carry. The Kentucky Senate passed a bill 29-8 on February 14th to allow concealed carry without a license, while also keeping the licensing system in place. This allows those with licences to carry concealed in those states with reciprocity agreements.
For those of you who always think this sort of thing is a partisan issue, a number of "yes" votes came from Democrats. One of the "nays" is Republican. I don't participate in lobbying, but I expect the bill has an excellent chance in the House. Of course, some of the local media has tried to put the bill in a bad light, noting that it came out of the Senate on the anniversary of the Parkland school shooting. https://www.kentucky.com/news/politi...226259470.html The bill itself is at: https://apps.legislature.ky.gov/reco.../orig_bill.pdf |
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#2 |
Member
Join Date: September 27, 2017
Location: Mpls, MN
Posts: 55
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"concealed carry without a license"
Not sure if I'm just naïve or just a little too concerned. My wife and I are on year 6 of our CCW status and have now attended two qualifications and also read USCCA and many other publications stressing - AVOID any reason to have to shoot. Both courses were different in content as were the qualifications and range time. I am a advocate of anyone carrying a Firearm to be educated to a fault on why we are doing it - Being from Minnesota we just had a Road Rage issue where a CCW in good standings shot a short bus driver over a snowy freeway congestion scratch and dent issue. Six shots and hitting the driver while children were on board. CRAZY - now he also had another deadly issue a few years back and charges were not filed as the Dead guy was a gang punk. I feel if this guy can be one of our "CCW Brothers" then how about anyone who just wants to carry be a good thing. Just my thoughts -
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#3 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 5, 2010
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 358
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Quote:
If so, then you are joined by several politicians who also want to restrict our right to defend ourselves. I would not consider you a brother if you are against others being able to defend themselves at home or wherever they legally travel. I would encourage you to rook around here a bit and learn about what the Constitution is, is not and what the 2nd amendment is saying. There are many well written articles on the subject here that might give you some ideas and insight to the subject.
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#4 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 26, 2005
Location: The Bluegrass
Posts: 9,149
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Quote:
More importantly, the culture has changed in our country. Open carry used to be culturally acceptable in a great deal of the country. Now, it's much less socially acceptable. In cities, it's a sure way to get hassled, even if it's legal. Thus, allowing concealed carry without a license reinforces our inherent right to self-defense. In addition, most of us here can pay the license fees and training costs without a financial sacrifice. But many are just hanging on. Allowing concealed carry without a license puts those in precarious financial shape on more or less on equal footing with those a bit better off. |
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#5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 29, 2011
Posts: 1,793
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That is great news about Kentucky. I am also curious if passed will it allow any US citizen to carry in Kentucky or only Kentucky citizens?
I know that will never happen in Illinois where it costs us about $400 to get a CCW which IMO is a crime and prevents a lot who need CCW the most, primarily inner city law abiding minorities, from being able to afford it but that is by design by the politicians that want to keep a boot on their neck. While I am all for anyone who wants to own a or carry a firearm to get training that includes safe handling, basic proficiency, and understanding the laws I certainly don't want it to be mandatory. States or cities that feel it is a concern should offer free training classes for those interested in such. The MSM anti gun agenda focuses only on criminal uses of firearms and never the many many daily instances of those who use them to defend themselves from violent criminals. Last edited by sigarms228; February 16, 2019 at 02:43 PM. |
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#6 |
Staff
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 8,841
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KyJim, has the bill been to the House yet?
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I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. If you need some honest-to-goodness legal advice, go buy some. |
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#7 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 26, 2005
Location: The Bluegrass
Posts: 9,149
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The House
The bill does not distinguish between citizens of Kentucky and citizens of other states. Last edited by KyJim; February 17, 2019 at 11:14 PM. |
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#8 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 18, 2017
Location: Virginia, USA
Posts: 280
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Quote:
"Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those 'in common use at the time' finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons." While these were essentially side notes to the core finding of DC v. Heller (which held that we have a right to keep most firearms in our homes without regard to any militia, but nothing more), his writing didn't bode well for the concept of "Constitutional carry," which is a made-up political term, every bit as much as, say, "assault weapon."
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I got the key to the highway, billed out and bound to go. I'm gonna leave here running. Walking is much too slow. |
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#9 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 27, 2008
Posts: 2,199
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Heller did not address those issues specifically. They were not before the court. It is speculated that Scalia included that language to ensure a 5th vote.
At the SCOTUS level, the legality of carry laws has not been addressed. |
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#10 |
Member
Join Date: June 25, 2016
Location: Western Kentucky
Posts: 30
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Being from KY it is great to see a bunch of bipartisan support for this bill. The law is a good one, that makes total sense. I love the point that was made regarding someone who is legal to open carry, becoming a criminal just because he put a coat on.
I have my CCDW, and will continue to renew it as we travel quite a bit, and need it for reciprocity in many of the states we go through or to. The 2A does not say anything about training being required to have this right!! |
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#11 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: October 23, 2018
Location: Republic of Boulder, USA
Posts: 1,475
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RGRacing said Quote:
The 'law' to buy a gun these days is a pretty low bar, IMHO. https://denver.cbslocal.com/2019/02/...parking-space/ Quote:
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#12 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 16, 2005
Location: E Tennessee
Posts: 828
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Do you know for a fact that the 31 year old guy had never received training? If he hadn't, do you think training would have stopped him from being an idiot?
Training is a good idea. Mandatory training is a bad idea as it can easily be used to disenfranchise people who cannot afford said training. |
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#13 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 20, 2017
Posts: 316
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When it comes to matters of law simplified and streamlined are the best, good for the citizens of Kentucky.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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#14 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 15, 2010
Posts: 8,388
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Required training limits rights to only those that can afford it.
Agree with the above poster about training being a good thing. I took required two day training in order to get a license: none of it covered safely shooting or carrying a handgun. Very little was even about guns. There was a requirement to get part of your 50 rounds on a human sized stationary target at really close ranges. The required training was fairly expensive, something a poor person couldn’t afford. The licensing fee to the state was fairly expensive as well; however, the state did have discounted fee for the financially destitute. Still, the required training from private parties can be expensive. Last edited by rickyrick; February 18, 2019 at 04:07 PM. |
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#15 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 21, 2016
Posts: 629
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In NH something similar was done 2 years ago - not sure how it relates to non-residents though. In the case of NH we had a shall issue license that permitted concealed carry, with no training requirement, that was 99% based on whether somebody was allowed to own a gun - again, 99% of the time, if one could own a gun the local chief of police or selectmen ran a background check and signed off.
Open carry had been legal without a permit for some time, however a loaded pistol in a vehicle I believe was always considered "concealed".. With our permit, since it was only red tape really, they got rid of the requirement and things make more sense now if you ask me. If you can't own the gun you are breaking the law anyway; if you can own the gun the permit was just a formality. What I will say is being spread across two residences (in NH, different towns) I've always been hesitant to get the permit since one rule of the permit is you relinquish it upon change of residence and must re-apply in the town of your new residence (it would be easy for someone to accuse me of lying about my residence no matter which I use and then I'd potentially be in violation of the law concerning the permit).. So now I carry concealed if I wish and without the red tape. It was a good change - "common sense" ![]() Anti gunners said it would cause violent altercations and crime if "everyone" could just carry all willy nilly - but really things have always been as such and it's made no difference... As far as training requirements go - I get and have witnessed something as simple as trigger discipline, or operation of their particular firearm even, is not necessarily understood with new gun owners, which is sad.. But then I do not understand why grandma (or anyone) has to pay hundreds of $$ and be able to shoot a particular group in order to carry her revolver in her purse. A basic free written test with the option of taking the class or reading a study guide would suffice to cover gun safety basics if you ask me. Weak minded people with anger management problems are not filtered out or made safe through "training". |
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#16 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: October 23, 2018
Location: Republic of Boulder, USA
Posts: 1,475
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#17 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 18, 2017
Location: Virginia, USA
Posts: 280
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Quote:
• The First Amendment doesn't say anything about "speech" in regard to non-verbal expression or "free press" in regard to electronic media. • The First Amendment doesn't say anything about what a "religion" actually is or what "free exercise" might legally entail. • The Fourth Amendment doesn't say anything about your car or rental properties (such as a storage unit) or private electronic communications. • The Fifth Amendment doesn't say anything about a citizen's implicit right to be reminded of his basic rights before being interrogated. I could go on and on. The Bill of Rights establishes basic limitations on the powers of government. It's up to the federal judiciary to define the minutiae in an evolving society. My view is that the government has a compelling interest in ensuring that persons carrying weapons in public have basic training and credentials. I personally favor thorough instruction that includes academic training and live-fire exercises and legitimate examinations for both. I'm impressed, however, by the comments by others here that such training should not be limited solely to those with the means to pay for it.
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I got the key to the highway, billed out and bound to go. I'm gonna leave here running. Walking is much too slow. |
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#18 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 16, 2005
Location: E Tennessee
Posts: 828
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Quote:
I'm not aware of any states that require training prior to purchasing a gun. Lots of people who don't have a carry permit do stupid things with those guns. Do you want to force them to get training as well? You are also wrong about every state requiring training prior to issuing a carry permit, I believe Indiana is one of them that has no training requirement. The first permit-less carry state, Vermont, allowed untrained people to carry for a century, apparently without major issues. |
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#19 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 16, 2002
Location: alaska
Posts: 3,498
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No amount of training or classes will deter stupidity. I cannot speak about other states training when it comes to obtaining a concealed carry permit, but when I took the class a lot of years back, all the class did was read over the state statutes regarding the lawful use of deadly force, and go to the range. If you could hit the paper, you were good to go.
If you were hitting the ground at 5 yards because the gunshop told you a hammerless double action snub nose was the best gun for protection, and you had never shot a gun before, never dry fired, the instructor just handed you one of his guns, with a single action trigger pull so the shooter could at least hit paper instead of dirt. Oh and all that 'classwork' didn't prevent a ND while the line was not only cold, but transitioning shooters, so someone on that line coming off failed to clear their weapon as well as to keep boogerhook off the trigger. No, that's not exaggeration or hyperbole.
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"Every man alone is sincere; at the entrance of a second person hypocrisy begins." - Ralph Waldo Emerson "People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." - Soren Kierkegaard |
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#20 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 15, 2010
Posts: 8,388
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Washington state does not require training, at least when I got my permit 5 years ago. Texas does, but Texas allowed me to transition my permit to Non-resident when I moved.
In Washington, I went to the sheriff’s office, paid a reasonable fee, got my self fingerprinted there and a few short days later the little guy was in the mailbox. My Texas permit back in the old days was an expensive lengthy process that was really inconvenient. I hear it’s changed. |
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#21 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: October 23, 2018
Location: Republic of Boulder, USA
Posts: 1,475
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BUT IMHO, just go buy any gun, for any reason, w/o any restrictions being 'forced' upon you..probably not a good idea. |
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#22 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 15, 2010
Posts: 8,388
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Why do you assume most people are either bad or stupid? Most people I know are capable and smart and will do the right thing.
I don’t think any right should be limited to those that have a higher social status or increased wealth. Some people cannot even take off work to take a class. It has taken some people 1-2 years to get a license from start to finish due to trying to find a class that fits their schedule and budget, not even accounting for the time it takes to get the state to print the license. |
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#23 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: January 13, 2018
Posts: 1,660
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Quote:
Once more, that training should be part of public education system just like drivers education. It would go far towards reducing crime in low income area's if we allowed the responsible citizens who live there to defend themselves from predation. Marksmanship training and gun safety was the original purpose of the US Army CMP program. If the Government mandates teaching 14 year olds how to set sexual limits then they can fit in a few minutes to teach which end the bullet comes out of in a gun. Quote:
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Must be the "Guns Are Bad" Gun Safety indoctrination. Now this is Maryland....one of the most gun friendly states around...Pfffft. https://www.hcpss.org/academics/health-education/ Anyway, point being it would not be hard to establish a free public mandatory gun safety training. It just seems part of "Equal Opportunity" to secure the blessing of liberty for all. |
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#24 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 19, 2013
Location: Albany Park, Chicago
Posts: 776
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#25 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: October 23, 2018
Location: Republic of Boulder, USA
Posts: 1,475
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BUT my CCWP was about the price I paid for my LCP plus one box of ammo. If somebody wants a CCWP, I doubt the money and time involved is a big deterrent. Certainly wasn't a 'welfare state' type thing in KY. |
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