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#1 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 8,350
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The rule says stay on scene,but....
This discussion could easily go wrong.Please don't be "that guy".
The "wisdom" version of what to do after a self defense use of force is "Call the police and don't run" OK,good. My question does not target any race,creed,color,ethnicity,or orientation.Whatever we can imagine,can be reversed 180 deg. I don't care if its Mars or Venus,if you are plaid or polka dot,if you worship Crom or the Great Pumpkin,it can come down to "My tribe vs your tribe" Scenario: I'm walking alone or with someone dear to me,minding my own business.Suddenly,a situation occurs requiring deadly force self defense.For example,a knife attack.I shoot him down. The advice also says "Look around for witnesses" Gee,a minute ago the street was pretty much empty....Now it looks like more of them by the minute. And I notice the guy with the knife does not look like me. The people gathering and getting agitated all look like the guy I shot. Do I make a tactical retreat to my vehicle(if I can) and go to the nearest police station? Or do I trust the Police will arrive soon enough ? Once again,I could be a purple man in a green neighborhood,it does not matter.Lets NOT bring specifics into this. |
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#2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 6, 2014
Posts: 6,654
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"When seconds count, law enforcement is only minutes away".
What might happen to you and yous in that time frame?
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"I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa |
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#3 |
Staff in Memoriam
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA
Posts: 24,798
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I would do whatever is necessary to avoid further violence; escape/evade more trouble.
I would very visibly call 911 ASAP as I tried to avoid further trouble and call out to the gathering people that the cops would be on their way to the scene. (If the neighborhood residents all looked like the Bad Guy and they are all different from me, I likely would not have been there to begin with.) |
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#4 |
Member
Join Date: November 22, 2015
Posts: 89
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GMkuPiIZ2k
People like things to be in 'black and white', it makes things clear, easy to understand and easy to follow. "Stay on scene" is generally good advice as it doesn't raise any suspicions that the shooter is attempting to flee the scene, something generally seen by the courts as a sign of guilt. However, circumstances may alter one's desire to not appear guilty, such as a dangerous condition that must be avoided. That could be anything from avoiding a fire at the scene or the defender either avoiding or evading a confrontation with the attacker's posse/cousins/brothers/gang/family/whatever. As long as the defender contacts the police within a reasonable time frame, a competent lawyer can explain why there was a delay and the defender wasn't on-scene. |
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#5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 25, 2012
Location: Cascadia
Posts: 1,363
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its not illegal to leave a potentially hostile environment even if you were a part of it. Its not an entirely unrealistic scenario given todays politics on the subject that one could face more hostility from lawfully defending yourself.
I cant remember the name, but the guy in NY who ran over a biker while attempting to flee a violent scene was not charged with that crime as far as I could follow that story...
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lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2 |
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#6 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 10,442
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There's many laws that include references to what a "prudent" person would do.
For the situation described here, it would very prudent to get out of reach, while calling 911. It would only be common sense to do so. |
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#7 |
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,475
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The reason for the advice to stay at the scene of an incident, immediately call 911 and wait, is that your leaving can be seen as an admission of guilt. In fact your leaving the scene can be used at your trial as evidence of guilt and to rebut your claim of self defense.
But if a reasonable person in like circumstances would conclude that remaining at the scene would put him in danger you should --
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"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
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#8 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 5, 2010
Location: Santa Fe, NM
Posts: 474
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i'd call 911 first, tell them what happened, what is happening now (crowd gathering) and that you are leaving for your own safety and where you are headed. stay on the line the entire time. if you know where it is, drive to the local police station parking lot. hostile crowd isn't likely to go there.
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#9 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 23, 2009
Posts: 3,963
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Staying put will just mean more shooting. Get out, and get to the police.
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#10 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 28, 2013
Location: Detroit
Posts: 435
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Reassess the situation. If you believe it will lead to more conflict then retreat to safety, while making sure that you are the first person to call 911. Also explain to the dispatcher that you are leaving the scene for safety and are heading to "x" location so that authorities can meet you.
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#11 |
Junior member
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 9,994
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Leave.
Drive to the nearest police station if you know where it is or call 9-1-1 and have them give you directions. Do not discuss the event. Wait for your lawyer. Have him/her explain you felt the scene was tense, staying may have caused further confrontations, and you immediately went to the police. Even if everyone looks the same as you, if you are in a strange neighborhood, there is a good chance one of the locals is related or a friend of your attacker. |
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#12 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 30, 2006
Posts: 1,433
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Calling 911 ASAP is certainly appropriate but it is impossible to be sure you are the first person making the call.
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Vietnam Veteran ('69-'70) NRA Life Member RMEF Life Member |
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#13 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 4,453
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As Mas Ayoob says, "The prisons are full of people who thought no one or no camera saw what happened."
Remember that folks. Deaf |
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#14 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 7, 2009
Location: Western New York
Posts: 2,736
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If you have a cell phone and are going to leave, take a picture of the perp and the knife. The knife will be gone before the cops get there and there will be a lot of witnesses saying you shot someone who was unarmed.
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#15 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 27, 2006
Location: Ozarks
Posts: 1,840
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There is no rule anywhere requiring a person to remain in danger.
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"A Liberal is someone who doesn't care what you do, as long as it's mandatory". - Charles Krauthammer |
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#16 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 8,350
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Quote:
Pictures or not,the scene may be altered,and "witnesses" can collaborate. |
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#17 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 17, 2005
Location: Swamp dweller
Posts: 6,213
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Quote:
Taking pictures may not be an option in the OP's scenario if the crowd gathers quickly. At that point I would be worried more about personal safety if the mood of the crowd intensifies.
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NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be. Last edited by Don P; January 2, 2017 at 11:24 AM. Reason: added thought |
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#18 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 18, 1999
Location: TN
Posts: 302
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Simple: Stay out of the "rich and vibrant" areas of town.
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#19 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 17, 2005
Location: Swamp dweller
Posts: 6,213
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Quote:
__________________
NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be. |
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#20 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 2, 2013
Posts: 975
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Quote:
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#21 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 4,453
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Quote:
Deaf |
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#22 | |
Staff
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 4,022
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Quote:
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#23 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 2,077
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this is not advice but as far as I am concerned. If I must use my firearm in public, I will reholster and get the heck out of the "danger zone" asap. As soon as I am "away" from where bad things just went down, I will call 911 to request EMS/POLICE and then meet them where ever there designate. I will not loiter around for some guys 5 cousins or friends to show up and I wont loiter around for some good intending citizen who has been coiled like a spring waiting on the day to pull a gun on somebody. I may go across the street, around the corner or even drive off in my car.. but I aint hanging around where gunplay just occurred. No matter where I go, Ill be on the phone with 911 in a matter of a couple of minutes. I wont be securing any scene, separating witnesses, kicking the badguys weapon all over the floor or collecting evidence. If the badguy tries to run away.. he can, I wont try and stop him.
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Life is a web woven by necessity and chance... Last edited by FireForged; January 2, 2017 at 05:33 PM. |
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#24 | |||||||
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,475
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Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
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#25 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 9, 2010
Location: live in a in a house when i'm not in a tent
Posts: 2,483
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If time allows, call 911 to alert them to the incident. If you're still on with them, I would suppose you could say "X is happening and I don't feel safe. Can I leave and drive to the nearest police station?"
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