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Old January 1, 2017, 12:08 PM   #1
HiBC
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The rule says stay on scene,but....

This discussion could easily go wrong.Please don't be "that guy".
The "wisdom" version of what to do after a self defense use of force is "Call the police and don't run" OK,good.
My question does not target any race,creed,color,ethnicity,or orientation.Whatever we can imagine,can be reversed 180 deg.
I don't care if its Mars or Venus,if you are plaid or polka dot,if you worship Crom or the Great Pumpkin,it can come down to "My tribe vs your tribe"

Scenario: I'm walking alone or with someone dear to me,minding my own business.Suddenly,a situation occurs requiring deadly force self defense.For example,a knife attack.I shoot him down.

The advice also says "Look around for witnesses"

Gee,a minute ago the street was pretty much empty....Now it looks like more of them by the minute.

And I notice the guy with the knife does not look like me.

The people gathering and getting agitated all look like the guy I shot.

Do I make a tactical retreat to my vehicle(if I can) and go to the nearest police station? Or do I trust the Police will arrive soon enough ?

Once again,I could be a purple man in a green neighborhood,it does not matter.Lets NOT bring specifics into this.
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Old January 1, 2017, 12:38 PM   #2
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"When seconds count, law enforcement is only minutes away".

What might happen to you and yous in that time frame?
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Old January 1, 2017, 12:44 PM   #3
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I would do whatever is necessary to avoid further violence; escape/evade more trouble.

I would very visibly call 911 ASAP as I tried to avoid further trouble and call out to the gathering people that the cops would be on their way to the scene.

(If the neighborhood residents all looked like the Bad Guy and they are all different from me, I likely would not have been there to begin with.)
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Old January 1, 2017, 12:45 PM   #4
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GMkuPiIZ2k

People like things to be in 'black and white', it makes things clear, easy to understand and easy to follow.

"Stay on scene" is generally good advice as it doesn't raise any suspicions that the shooter is attempting to flee the scene, something generally seen by the courts as a sign of guilt.
However, circumstances may alter one's desire to not appear guilty, such as a dangerous condition that must be avoided. That could be anything from avoiding a fire at the scene or the defender either avoiding or evading a confrontation with the attacker's posse/cousins/brothers/gang/family/whatever. As long as the defender contacts the police within a reasonable time frame, a competent lawyer can explain why there was a delay and the defender wasn't on-scene.
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Old January 1, 2017, 01:31 PM   #5
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its not illegal to leave a potentially hostile environment even if you were a part of it. Its not an entirely unrealistic scenario given todays politics on the subject that one could face more hostility from lawfully defending yourself.

I cant remember the name, but the guy in NY who ran over a biker while attempting to flee a violent scene was not charged with that crime as far as I could follow that story...
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Old January 1, 2017, 01:57 PM   #6
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There's many laws that include references to what a "prudent" person would do.
For the situation described here, it would very prudent to get out of reach, while calling 911.
It would only be common sense to do so.
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Old January 1, 2017, 02:02 PM   #7
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The reason for the advice to stay at the scene of an incident, immediately call 911 and wait, is that your leaving can be seen as an admission of guilt. In fact your leaving the scene can be used at your trial as evidence of guilt and to rebut your claim of self defense.

But if a reasonable person in like circumstances would conclude that remaining at the scene would put him in danger you should --
  1. Leave and get to safety.

  2. Call 911 to report the incident as soon as possible. Tell the 911 operator your name, where you are, and provide complete contact information. Do everything you reasonably can under the circumstances to make yourself available to authorities.

  3. Be prepared to articulate why you left the scene.
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Old January 1, 2017, 03:23 PM   #8
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i'd call 911 first, tell them what happened, what is happening now (crowd gathering) and that you are leaving for your own safety and where you are headed. stay on the line the entire time. if you know where it is, drive to the local police station parking lot. hostile crowd isn't likely to go there.
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Old January 1, 2017, 03:48 PM   #9
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Staying put will just mean more shooting. Get out, and get to the police.
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Old January 1, 2017, 03:59 PM   #10
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Reassess the situation. If you believe it will lead to more conflict then retreat to safety, while making sure that you are the first person to call 911. Also explain to the dispatcher that you are leaving the scene for safety and are heading to "x" location so that authorities can meet you.
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Old January 1, 2017, 04:24 PM   #11
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Leave.
Drive to the nearest police station if you know where it is or call 9-1-1 and have them give you directions. Do not discuss the event. Wait for your lawyer. Have him/her explain you felt the scene was tense, staying may have caused further confrontations, and you immediately went to the police.

Even if everyone looks the same as you, if you are in a strange neighborhood, there is a good chance one of the locals is related or a friend of your attacker.
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Old January 1, 2017, 05:14 PM   #12
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Calling 911 ASAP is certainly appropriate but it is impossible to be sure you are the first person making the call.
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Old January 1, 2017, 05:17 PM   #13
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As Mas Ayoob says, "The prisons are full of people who thought no one or no camera saw what happened."

Remember that folks.

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Old January 1, 2017, 05:31 PM   #14
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If you have a cell phone and are going to leave, take a picture of the perp and the knife. The knife will be gone before the cops get there and there will be a lot of witnesses saying you shot someone who was unarmed.
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Old January 2, 2017, 09:37 AM   #15
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There is no rule anywhere requiring a person to remain in danger.
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Old January 2, 2017, 10:18 AM   #16
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Quote:
If you have a cell phone and are going to leave, take a picture of the perp and the knife. The knife will be gone before the cops get there and there will be a lot of witnesses saying you shot someone who was unarmed.
Very good point.

Pictures or not,the scene may be altered,and "witnesses" can collaborate.
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Old January 2, 2017, 10:21 AM   #17
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Quote:
The reason for the advice to stay at the scene of an incident, immediately call 911 and wait, is that your leaving can be seen as an admission of guilt. In fact your leaving the scene can be used at your trial as evidence of guilt and to rebut your claim of self defense.

But if a reasonable person in like circumstances would conclude that remaining at the scene would put him in danger you should --
Leave and get to safety.

Call 911 to report the incident as soon as possible. Tell the 911 operator your name, where you are, and provide complete contact information. Do everything you reasonably can under the circumstances to make yourself available to authorities.

Be prepared to articulate why you left the scene
Almost word for word from what was discussed in the MAG 40 class by Massad Ayoob I attended this past October.

Taking pictures may not be an option in the OP's scenario if the crowd gathers quickly. At that point I would be worried more about personal safety if the mood of the crowd intensifies.
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Last edited by Don P; January 2, 2017 at 10:24 AM. Reason: added thought
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Old January 2, 2017, 10:22 AM   #18
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Simple: Stay out of the "rich and vibrant" areas of town.
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Old January 2, 2017, 10:26 AM   #19
Don P
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Quote:
Simple: Stay out of the "rich and vibrant" areas of town.
Not always possible and just a thought to ponder, bad things happen to good people in good places (what we assume are good places)
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Old January 2, 2017, 11:01 AM   #20
ATN082268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSecondBest
If you have a cell phone and are going to leave, take a picture of the perp and the knife. The knife will be gone before the cops get there and there will be a lot of witnesses saying you shot someone who was unarmed.
If you can safely, taking a couple of crime scene pictures is probably a good idea in general, regardless of whether you stick around or not. If you just leave the crime scene where you shot someone who, at the time, had a knife but later did not when the cops arrive, I wouldn't want to take those odds to Vegas
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Old January 2, 2017, 02:24 PM   #21
Deaf Smith
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Quote:
There is no rule anywhere requiring a person to remain in danger.
No but be prepared to explain your behavior in court. Most cops and juries have this 'flight = guilt' thing.

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Old January 2, 2017, 02:32 PM   #22
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Quote:
Most cops and juries have this 'flight = guilt' thing.
And it is embodied in established legal principles.
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Old January 2, 2017, 04:26 PM   #23
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this is not advice but as far as I am concerned. If I must use my firearm in public, I will reholster and get the heck out of the "danger zone" asap. As soon as I am "away" from where bad things just went down, I will call 911 to request EMS/POLICE and then meet them where ever there designate. I will not loiter around for some guys 5 cousins or friends to show up and I wont loiter around for some good intending citizen who has been coiled like a spring waiting on the day to pull a gun on somebody. I may go across the street, around the corner or even drive off in my car.. but I aint hanging around where gunplay just occurred. No matter where I go, Ill be on the phone with 911 in a matter of a couple of minutes. I wont be securing any scene, separating witnesses, kicking the badguys weapon all over the floor or collecting evidence. If the badguy tries to run away.. he can, I wont try and stop him.
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Old January 2, 2017, 04:43 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireForged
this is not advice but as far as I am concerned. If I must use my firearm in public, I will reholster and get the heck out of the "danger zone" asap....
And maybe your explanation will be convincing, or maybe it will not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMarksman
Quote:
Most cops and juries have this 'flight = guilt' thing.
And it is embodied in established legal principles.
Yes, post incident conduct is evidence and can be argued as evidence of guilt. For example see:
  1. U.S. v. Perkins, 937 F.2d 1397 (C.A.9 (Cal.), 1990), at 1402:
    Quote:
    ...the instruction explicitly stated, "the jury may consider [the false statements] as circumstantial evidence of the defendant's guilt." Id. at 1104. Second, we have approved the use of this instruction on false exculpatory statements. See United States v. Boekelman, 594 F.2d 1238, 1240 (9th Cir.1979) (court noted approval of standard Devitt & Blackmar instruction and distinguished Di Stefano in upholding a variation from the standard instruction); United States v. Wood, 550 F.2d 435, 443 (9th Cir.1976)....
  2. State v. Wimbush, 260 Iowa 1262, 150 N.W.2d 653 (Iowa, 1967), at 656:
    Quote:
    ...In Wigmore on Evidence, Third Ed., section 276, Volume II, page 111, under the title 'Conduct as Evidence of Guilt' the editor states: 'It is today universally conceded that the fact of an accused's flight, escape from custody, resistance to arrest, concealment, assumption of a false name, and related conduct, are admissible as evidence of consciousness of guilt, and thus of guilt itself.'

    McCormick on Evidence, section 248, pages 532, 533, puts it thus: "The wicked flee when no man pursueth.' Many acts of a defendant after the crime seeking to escape the toils of the law are received as admissions by conduct, constituting circumstantial evidence of consciousness of guilt and hence of the fact of guilt itself. In this class are flight from the locality after the crime, assuming a false name, resisting arrest, * * *.' See also Jones on Evidence, Fifth Ed., section 386, page 717.

    We have held many times that evidence of escape from custody and flight of an accused is admissible as a criminating circumstance. State v. O'Meara, 190 Iowa 613, 625, 177 N.W. 563, 569; State v. Heath, 202 Iowa 153, 156, 209 N.W. 279, 281; State v. Ford, Iowa, 145 N.W.2d 638, 641. See also 29 Am.Jur.2d, Evidence, section 280, and 22A C.J.S. Criminal Law § 625 a....
  3. State v. Lonnecker, 237 Neb. 207, 465 N.W.2d 737 (Neb., 1991), at 743:
    Quote:
    ... Although Clancy involved evidence of the defendant's attempted intimidation or actual intimidation of a State's informant or witness, evidence which was admissible under Neb.Evid.R. 404(2) ("other acts"), the rationale for "conscious guilt" evidence is equally applicable in Lonnecker's case.

    Lonnecker's hiding in the crawl space was evidence of his "conscious guilt" concerning the marijuana located on the premises which were under his control, that is, a conscious guilt concerning possession and cultivation of marijuana as a controlled substance. ...
  4. Martin v. State, 707 S.W.2d 243 (Tex.App.-Beaumont, 1986), at 245:
    Quote:
    ...In 2 RAY, TEXAS LAW OF EVIDENCE CIVIL AND CRIMINAL sec. 1538 (Texas Practice 3rd ed. 1980), we find:

    "Sec. 1538 Conduct as Evidence of Guilt

    "A 'consciousness of guilt' is perhaps one of the strongest kinds of evidence of guilt. It is consequently a well accepted principle that any conduct on the part of a person accused of crime, subsequent to its commission, which indicates a 'consciousness of guilt' may be received as a circumstance tending to prove that he committed the act with which he is charged." ...

    See also Cuellar v. State, 613 S.W.2d 494 (Tex.Crim.App.1981)....
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Old January 2, 2017, 05:09 PM   #25
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If time allows, call 911 to alert them to the incident. If you're still on with them, I would suppose you could say "X is happening and I don't feel safe. Can I leave and drive to the nearest police station?"
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