CVA 444 marlin

[stagpanther]

Just made a "spur of the moment" purchase--a CVA 444 marlin hunter. It's a single-shot break-open--but so what. I've started buying more CVA's since they now have much of their work done at Bergara including the barrels. And it cost just a bit over $200--less than an 8 lb keg of powder.

[T. O'Heir]

"...a single-shot break-open..." H&R used to make a Handi-rifle in .45-70. Always thought that'd be fun. Had this brilliant idea about a single shot .45-70 for Grizz. snicker.
.444 brass/ammo will probably be an issue. Both Graf's and Midway have none.

[ballisticxlr]

A 240SJHP running 2400fps from a .444 is absolutely murder on anything in North America. Recoil is stout but not punishing.

[stagpanther]

I don't have any worries about recoil--I have a Henry brass big boy in 45-70 with brass buttplate and I figure there is no way the recoil in the hunter 444 will be as "persuasive" as the 45-70's. I was lucky and found a few bags of Remington brass--otherwise there is nothing available anywhere--in fact it's hard to find "back order OK."

[Blindstitch]

I've been impressed with the CVA Optima V2 so much that I bought their pistol version too. Wouldn't mind picking up a cartridge version. Although I'm curious when someone is going to try and drill out a breech plug and fit a cartridge.

[ammo.crafter]

I've been hunting hogs with a .444 Marlin for years and simply love the cartridge.
Try loading up with cast bullets in the 275-310 range for absolute knockdown power.

[stagpanther]

Try loading up with cast bullets in the 275-310 range for absolute knockdown power.

I assume you have to limit the velocity of the cast bullets? I have a pretty big stash of all kinds of .429 bullets since I've been shooting 44 mag for quite a few years--the xtp has always been a top performer for me in that cartridge. I've also found that Lehigh's extreme penetrator is a great bullet in pistol like cartridges in terms of consistency and accuracy.

[stagpanther]

I've been impressed with the CVA Optima V2 so much that I bought their pistol version too.

I have a CVA scout pistol in 6.5 creedmoor--I haven't really spent enough time developing loads for it iso I haven't found a good load yet--my rifle loads don't seem to be exceptional in it. I also have a CVA paramount--the accuracy and performance of that muzzleloader is amazing and equals or beats a good many of my bolt action rifles. It's a "well kept secret" that CVA is owned by Bergara and they make most, if not all, of their barrels. I remember years ago before Bergara acquired CVA I always thought of their offerings as bottom of the barrel Wally World fodder--not so now!

A 240SJHP running 2400fps from a .444 is absolutely murder on anything in North America. Recoil is stout but not punishing.

I've been exploring potential loads on quick-load; what is interesting is that much of the published data out there is based on the "1:38 twist 44 mag stretched" frame of reference; whereas modern 444's have come into their own with 1:20 twist. I'm looking at a "way out there" high velocity monolithic load that looks promising in QC.

[Scorch]

You'll like that! I love my 444!

[stagpanther]

You'll like that! I love my 444!

Hope so--if it ever gets here. I remember "the good old days" when I ordered firearms they usually got delivered to my selected ffl within days--these days it takes weeks.

[FrankenMauser]

I've been exploring potential loads on quick-load; what is interesting is that much of the published data out there is based on the "1:38 twist 44 mag stretched" frame of reference; whereas modern 444's have come into their own with 1:20 twist. I'm looking at a "way out there" high velocity monolithic load that looks promising in QC.

Be careful with Quickload. .444 Marlin is one of those cartridges where QL can't really make sense of it. So pressure and/or velocity predictions are usually off by 20% or more. And they can be high or low, depending upon bullet, seating depth, and powder chosen.


Have fun with your laser beam load. I was able to get to 1,950 fps with a 437 gr bullet that was specifically designed for the task. But that was it. Recoil was notable, and I was the only person willing to shoot it. But with a 7 lb Handi-Rifle and that much recoil energy and recoil velocity, I could not get the scope to stop moving in the rings and the cantilever scope base was being deformed with every shot fired at 2,000 fps or more. (Handi-Rifle. So no iron sights. )

My goal was 5,000 ft-lb (2,275 fps). I did not make it.

According to the Shooters Calculator and JBMBallistics recoil calculators, the recoil energy was the equivalent of firing two 9-lb .300 WMs or two 7-lb .45-70s at the same time.

Originally Posted by T.Ohaire

H&R used to make a Handi-rifle in .45-70.

They chambered the Handi-Rifles for everything, including .444 Marlin.
There's one in my safe.

[stagpanther]

Be careful with Quickload. .444 Marlin is one of those cartridges where QL can't really make sense of it. So pressure and/or velocity predictions are usually off by 20% or more. And they can be high or low, depending upon bullet, seating depth, and powder chosen.

I know what you mean--there appears to be variance with some cartridges--I've noticed especially with straight-wall pistol cartridges. It that instance I usually like to "cross-verify" by tweaking the settings to where they match what labradar tells me I'm getting velocity-wise and other published data. Not foolproof, but should get me reasonably close.

[stagpanther]

It came in today and I cleaned it up and took it out for some initial shots using Hornady's superformance 265 gr FP. with a Burris 3x prism scope it weighs 7.5 lbs but feels remarkably light for a 25" heavy barrel. Felt recoil is respectable but certainly tolerable IMO, I'd rate it about like that of a 270 Weatherby magnum. I had a hard time getting it zeroed--eventually I found the scope base had come loose and I had to call it a day.

[stagpanther]

Be careful with Quickload. .444 Marlin is one of those cartridges where QL can't really make sense of it. So pressure and/or velocity predictions are usually off by 20% or more. And they can be high or low, depending upon bullet, seating depth, and powder chosen.

I went through some Nosler and Hornady published data and then took their charge weights and COL's and plugged them into QL--in most cases QL came very close to right on the money for the forecasted velocities. The pressures were quite low in QL, none of the published charges came very close or exceeded pmax.

I suspect the majority of data I've encountered is based on 1:38 twist marlin 336 test conformity and does not necessarily reflect more "modern" faster barrels and different powder combinations.

[stagpanther]

Continued having problems with the Burris Prism scope--not meant for a set-up like this, between the 14" LOP and the 3" eye relief I just couldn't get it to work right, the recoil also was putting a lot of stress on the scope's build-in ring/mount. Switched to an old junker bushnell 3 x 9 and took her out again today.

Despite windy 30 mph switchy conditions, the hornady superformance 265 interlocs did very well even though I was shooting out in the open. I was very impressed that such a powerful cartridge could shoot so well in realistic hunting conditions. One of the biggest advantages of the rifle--the brass is very easy to retrieve after shooting.

@105 yards

[stagpanther]

Naturally, hornady appears to have discontinued the 265 gr interlocs so I won't be able to try to chase a load like this.

[FrankenMauser]

They'll be back.
Hornady will ship more when they run the ammunition again.
The 265 gr Superformance load is very popular, as is the bullet. They just aren't popular enough for continuous production.
I've seen this twice since I got into the cartridge in 2009. They'll be back.

That group looks like a windy day with my custom 336-444 and the Superformance load.
First bullet goes 3/4" high at 100 yd.
The rest of the magazine (whether 1 or 4) goes through the same hole, at the point of aim.
Nice group for the conditions.

That's one of the reasons why I like the cartridge so much. It doesn't suffer from "big bullet syndrome" like other big bores, where deviation from target weights, lengths, ogive shape, etc. is allowed to vary more than smaller bullets, because the percentage of deviation is lower.

---

Most of the data using classic powders is older data.
There's some newer data, though. Newer bullets, like the 265 FTX usually have more modern powders listed than classic powders.

[stagpanther]

Newer bullets, like the 265 FTX usually have more modern powders listed than classic powders

I just ordered 4 boxes of them from powder valley--they have them for $28 a box. I guess I'll wait until the interlocks are available again. For $200 a rifle that shoots this well and can likely bring down anything in NA at closer ranges--that's what I call a bargain. I'm liken this cartridge a lot already and haven't even started loading for it yet. USPS lost my dies I ordered 3 weeks ago--but they mysteriously were reaquired in the system yesterday and there's hope they may actually find their way here sometime next week.

[stagpanther]

I could not get the scope to stop moving in the rings and the cantilever scope base was being deformed with every shot fired at 2,000 fps or more.

That's pretty much what happened with the Burris 3x scope with cantilevered mount I tried on this, because of the LOP and relatively short eye relief I had the scope hanging off the rear of the scope mount which I guess creates a bad "lever moment" when under recoil.

What really has me stumped is the pmax in QL which is listed at 51,488 psi--when I believe the vast majority of data conforms with SAAMI specs of 44,000 (+/-). Hornady's published loads clearly exceed SAAMI specs and are closer to the pmax in QL. Pure conjecture on my part--but I'm assuming the lower ratings are made under the assumption that the cartridge will be used almost exclusively in the marlin lever gun??

[44caliberkid]

As a side note, since we're talking about the 444 Marlin, I see Marlin still lists it in the catalog, but I couldn't find any new ones. Used ones on GB are going for $1000 to $1300 and someone wants $1800 for a NIB model. I didn't try any distributors but I'm wondering if they are currently making new ones. That's why I want Henry to chamber their 45-70 rifle in 444. Winchester Big Bore 94's are still reasonable in 444, but they are so darn ugly with that huge chunk cut out of the receiver for the cross bolt safety.
Stag, I'm enjoying your adventures with the cartridge.

[stagpanther]

Stag, I'm enjoying your adventures with the cartridge.

I am too. I'll have some REALLY interesting adventures planned once (if) my dies show up--they shipped three weeks ago and USPS says that somewhere they are on their way and someday they will be delivered.

Even my 44 mag rifles can be remarkably accurate with the right load--but there's "something special" about the 444 marlin, at least with the 265 interlocs I've shot so far. I shot the group above in blasting winter conditions and it put them right in there.

[stagpanther]

If I lived in a "straightwall only" state I would definitely choose the 444 marlin as my hunting cartridge of choice--and bypass something like the 350 legend.

[FrankenMauser]

I didn't try any distributors but I'm wondering if they are currently making new ones.

Remington shut down Marlin in August, after having shut their own production down a while prior.
Marlin was sold to Ruger in October (via Remington bankruptcy proceedings), with the deal finalized a few weeks ago.
There won't be any new Marlins available until Ruger moves the tooling and equipment, adapts their own methods, and restarts production (I believe Marlin production will be in North Carolina).

If you want a Marlin Model 444 right now, you have to pay to play, or wait until you find one locally for a good price.

[Scorch]

Nice group! My 98 in 444 does about the same, one big hole at 100 yds. Beauty of it is you can see the bullet holes with the naked eye at 100 yds! I like to think of my 444 as my "poor man's .375" (I also have a 375, and ammo costs twice as much as 444 ammo). I like the 444 enough that I was going to build myself a 444 on an old 336 frame I had sitting around for a couple of years, but I sold the rifle instead. I have no need for any more projects, I can barely keep up with work at my shop!

hornady appears to have discontinued the 265 gr interlocs

Cutting Edge makes a 300 grainer that looks awful tempting!

[stagpanther]

Cutting Edge makes a 300 grainer that looks awful tempting!

LOL--you read my mind and my order is already in. Problem is I'm guessing I'll/you'll have to wander off into "wildcat" territory with the trimming the case length to accommodate the longer ogive and CBO, sorta like what you have to do with the 265 FTX. I'm not exactly sure what effect having the shorter case length will do to the chamber/throat/accuracy over time and repeated firings. .311 BC on this bullet flying fast...hmmmmmm

What powder have you found that works especially well with 444?

My 98 in 444 does about the same, one big hole at 100 yds

You put a 444 barrel on a Mauser action?