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March 4, 2024, 04:59 PM | #101 |
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I would very much like to see Baldwin be found guilty. Perhaps this trial is the setup. As 44amp said earlier in the thread, to paraphrase, the buck stops here.
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March 4, 2024, 08:02 PM | #102 |
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I think Branca summed it up pretty well, there's negligence (liability) to go around for the whole production--management, directors etc--but the obvious logic that, no matter what anyone else did, had the armorer performed her job (or whoever did in her stead)--no live round would have ever made it into the revolver for Baldwin to fire is pretty compelling.
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March 4, 2024, 09:24 PM | #103 |
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It wasn't until we started to see videos of various witnesses in this trial that I learned there were actually three people handling the firearms and ammunition on this set. I knew that there was a prop master (Sarah Zachry) and that Hannah Gutierrez worked under her, but I didn't know that Zachry was considered an employee of the Seth Kenney, and that she was also handling the guns. And then there's a third person, named Nicole, who apparently also handled the guns and ammo.
It's a nightmare. Good luck ever figuring out who did what, when. The reality is that, with 30 guns involved, there probably should have been at least two full-time armorers. Or maybe one full-time, and a second to be on the set any day they were going to be using the guns (for actual filming, or for blocking out scenes and rehearsing). In fact, I believe one of the professional armorers who turned down the gig said right after the incident that he had told them they needed two armorers.
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March 4, 2024, 10:20 PM | #104 | |
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Either way. First, as head of the production, it was his responsibility to see that the people hired did the jobs they were hired to do correctly. He did not. and in the end, as the man who pointed the gun and operated it, he did not personally verify it was a "cold gun" he just took the word of the guy who handed it to him. Even if the gun had been fully loaded with live ammo, if Baldwin had not done what he did, no one would have been shot. To me, that is the overriding factor. Everyone else's failure to follow the rules are contributing factors. Baldwin not following the rules is the reason a woman was killed. I don't see how you can argue against that.
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March 5, 2024, 03:39 AM | #105 | |
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March 5, 2024, 07:41 AM | #106 |
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And I would offer the exact opposite:
That it didn't/wouldn't matter what ANYone else did or didn't do... if the last man in the chain had done what anyone/everyone should always do... check the gun. That said, initial reports was that Gutierrez wasn't on the set when the gun was handed to Baldwin. Was that in error ? |
March 5, 2024, 07:46 AM | #107 | |
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March 5, 2024, 08:24 AM | #108 | |
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March 5, 2024, 08:27 AM | #109 | |
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Other, experienced, armorers they approach told them they needed at least TWO full-time armorers due to the number of firearms. Instead, they hired ONE young rookie, and made her only a part-time armorer. Then they supplemented her with two other young women, who knew nothing about firearms. What could possibly go wrong?
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March 5, 2024, 08:34 AM | #110 | |
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"Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk! Last edited by stagpanther; March 5, 2024 at 08:45 AM. |
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March 5, 2024, 11:15 AM | #111 |
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March 5, 2024, 11:21 AM | #112 | ||
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Person 1: The armorer has responsibilities and if those had been fulfilled properly, the person holding the gun would have either known that the gun they held was "live" or would have been able to handle it as the inert object as they were told it was. Person 2: Well, the owner/production company is guilty for their hiring practices and how they ran the armorer: Person 1: Ok, well lets look at that issue. <Comments here about how the owner/production company hired and ran the armorer.> Person 2: Well, that doesn't matter because the person holding the gun and pointing it was guilty for failing to follow guidelines. Person 1: But are they really, what about <comments here about division of responsibilities on set between propmaster/armorer and actor>? Person 2. Well, that doesn't matter because they are guilty for their hiring practices and how they controlled/didn't control the armorer. And so on and so forth. That's not really productive. If the comment is about actor vs. armorer/propmaster responsibility, then the response should be as well. If the comment is about owner/production company responsibility vs. armorer/propmaster responsibility, then the response should be as well. Look, the point of this thread isn't to convict or exonerate Baldwin or the armorer, it's to figure out what's going on, to see how the laws apply, to learn from the tragedy.
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March 5, 2024, 11:27 AM | #113 | |
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The armorer/propmaster is supposed to control an environment where the normal gun safety rules do not apply. They are to ensure safety where real guns are going to be handled even though there is no safe direction, where real guns may be pointed at other persons, where blanks may be discharged, etc. They are also intended to operate and set up firearms to conform to the requirements of the scene in question. Actors are not expected to be firearm experts, the armorers/propmasters provide that expertise and ensure safety. https://www.iatselocal52.org/Applica...pArmorerJD.pdf
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March 5, 2024, 11:39 AM | #114 |
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March 5, 2024, 07:51 PM | #115 | |||
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Couple of things...
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I fail to see how the armorer can be convicted unless witnesses say that she definitely loaded the gun, left it on the prop table, walked away, and no one else tampered with it until Baldwin picked it up and fired it. Even then, Baldwin would and should face severe consequences for handling the firearm without the armorer present. Well, as long as it is expected that the armorer must be present during live fire scenes of the movie according to industry standards (and if they aren't required to be present during such scenes, as you say... why have an armorer anyway?).
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March 5, 2024, 07:58 PM | #116 | |
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March 5, 2024, 08:20 PM | #117 |
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I'm gonna let JohnKsa respond to these since he's much better at explaining these things than I am. (yes, my pass-the-buck cop-out)
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March 5, 2024, 09:53 PM | #118 |
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5Whiskey
It’s not simply that your boss wasn’t there . Its that your boss gave you the keys to the tractor that he just wrongly repaired the brakes on . You then operate the tractor after he leaves and it fails to stop when you hit the brakes and you run over people . Just because your boss is gone doesn’t absolve him of the liability of his actions giving you a defective tractor . His actions were a direct cause of the accident yes no ?
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March 5, 2024, 10:21 PM | #119 | |
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Who actually handed the gun to Baldwin? Previous info is all over the place.... depending on who/what/when was the source. https://variety.com/2023/film/news/r...nt-1235501154/ https://www.yahoo.com/news/assistant...043300806.html (... not that the whole enterprise doesn't appear to be an absolute dog's breakfast from start to finish.) . Last edited by mehavey; March 5, 2024 at 10:31 PM. |
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March 6, 2024, 12:28 AM | #120 | |
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Some jobs are pretty critical. Leaving someone in charge without making sure they know how to do the job in your absence could be considered failing to exercise ordinary care. Let's look at an extreme case. A 21 year old babysitter leaves to go see her boyfriend, puts a 5 year old in charge of his 18month old sister and the 5 year old does something without understanding the impact and the 18month old dies. That would be failing to exercise ordinary care and would be considered to be criminal. So she could be charged criminally for something that happened in her absence--for actions that she did not take. In this case, if the armorer wasn't on scene and left someone else in charge without being sure that person had adequate experience and training to do the job, then it's possible that could be seen as failing to exercise ordinary care and she could be found criminally responsible for actions taken while she was not on the set because her negligence led to those actions.
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March 6, 2024, 12:57 AM | #121 | |
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Somebody asks for permission to hunt on farmer B's property. Farmer B says yeah, go ahead, but yer on your own and responsible for yourself. No problem says the hunter. While stalking a 495 lb buck with a gargantuan rack--the hunter slips and falls into an old well covered by leaves and is killed by the fall. The family of the hunter successfully sues Farmer B for millions and then some; he loses everything--because he knew about the existence of a well some place on his property but did not take preventive measures to make sure nobody could possibly get hurt. You also cannot legally waiver away negligence.
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March 6, 2024, 02:15 AM | #122 |
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Because there was a fatal shooting accident, its tragically obvious the armorer failed to do their job correctly.
What this trial should be about is, first, establishing if that failure was due to the armorer's actions/lack of actions, or if it was the result of events beyond the armorer's control. Then, establishing what legal responsibilities the armorer should be held accountable for. And what other people involved should be held accountable for. After the shooting a great many things were reported to the press and to investigators. Some of them I believe were true. Some I'm sure were what the people saying them thought were true, and some I have my doubts about. Several of them are key points that should be covered in court, under oath. We're on the way there, hopefully all the relevant and important questions will be answered, but its likely not all will be.
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March 6, 2024, 02:26 AM | #123 | ||
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There's also the evidence tampering charge but that's another issue entirely. Quote:
If you change the last paragraph to: "Farmer B is arrested and charged with involuntary manslaughter for not telling the hunter about a concealed well and/or for not marking/eliminating a potentially deadly hazard." then that would be a good example of a person who isn't present at the time of the death but contributed to it by failing to exercise ordinary care/by being negligent.
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March 6, 2024, 04:02 AM | #124 | ||
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"Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk! Last edited by stagpanther; March 6, 2024 at 05:25 AM. |
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March 6, 2024, 07:56 AM | #125 | |
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I think that might be enough to create reasonable doubt for a jury.
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