4198 & H335 won't cycle my AR15 but Varget will (NEWBIE QUESTION)

[wtfTG]

This was my first reloading for my Wylde-chambered, 20" bull barrel AR 15 223. I have an adjustable gas block and, even opening the block wide open, I did not get consistent cycling with the 4198 and H335 powders.

Loaded same bullets (Hornady, Sierra, Berger 52-55 gr), case, and primer with only different loads of 4198, H335, and Varget as per manufacturers recommendations. In essence I had 5 rounds of the same bullet, case, primer combo and the only difference was the powder. All powders were matched for min-max load weights as per manufacturer rec's. I stayed 0.5 gr below max and divided the difference by 5 and set up 5 loads per bullet/case/primer/powder combo. The min load for 4198, H335, and Varget was matched as were each other 4 load combos.

The formula for each powder test was: (Max load-0.5-Min load)/5. That gave me the incremental difference in loads for each bullet manufacturer. I then had:
set 1 at min load rec
set 2 at min load rec + incremental difference
set 3 at min load + 2x(incremental difference)
set 4 at min load + 3x(incremental difference)
set 5 at min load + 4x(incremental difference)
(Sorry for the technical description. I am a bit of a number nerd trying to get apple to apples.)

I got about a 60-90% failure to cycle rate on the 4198 and H335, but all Varget rounds cycled the gun effectively with an ejection pattern I was used to from shooting some Hornady, Sako, and Fiocchi factory rounds. I had to shoot the 4198 and H335 rounds with the gas block wide open and even then they would not cycle the gun consistently. But the Varget rounds cycled the gun well at my previous gas block settings that had worked for factory rounds.

The accuracy of the 4198 and H335 was very good, as was the Varget. Analyzing the groupings showed no significant difference at 100 yards, calm weather, about 45 degrees F.

Any enlightenment as to why the faster burning powders failed to cycle my AR with these lighter bullets would be greatly appreciated to help as I move forward with choosing powders.

Thanks ahead of time! (Sorry for the long post but some previous feedback asked for more specifics about the gun and load combo.)

[bfoosh006]

4198 has been a borderline powder for AR15 use in numerous rifles.

Not sure about the H335....

Varget is the slowest of the 3, and produces the most "gas"....

What buffer weight are you running ? H335 at a near max load should have run your AR... are you sure your gas block is lined up properly ?... no leaks ?

[Marco Califo]

H335 is the retail cannister version of WC844, which is the exact powder used in U.S. military 5.56 M193 55 gr FMJ and M855 62 gr with steel cone. The latter is the official NATO round. M193 is used in training but is not NATO spec.
Google tm 43-0001-27.pdf

Please post the actual load you are using with the powder and bulet types and weights specified like this:
"55 gr FMJBT H335 25.3 grns"
That is Hodgdon's published max load for that combination, and they go down as low as 21.4 gr for starting load.
I do not shoot an AR but I do shoot a Ruger Mini-14. My handloads, using published loads, and WC844 (surplus 335) have never failed to cycle the action.
I am thinking you may have something else going on. Either with the gun, or you are using too little powder. What primer are you using?

[wtfTG]

Hornady 52 gr HPBT 19.2 gr IMR 4198 - FTC x 5 out of 5 (I was increasing the gas return after the first set of 5 of these.)
Hornady 52 gr HPBT 19.6 gr IMR 4198 - FTC x 4 out of 5
Hornady 52 gr HPBT 20.1 gr IMR 4198 - FTC x 3 out of 5
Hornady 52 gr HPBT 20.6 gr IMR 4198 - FTC x 4 out of 5
Hornady 52 gr HPBT 21.0 gr IMR 4198 - FTC x 3 out of 5
21.9 gr max rec per Hornady

Sierra 52 gr HPBT 19.6 gr IMR 4198 - FTC x 1 out of 5
Sierra 52 gr HPBT 20.1 gr IMR 4198 - FTC x 3 out of 5
Sierra 52 gr HPBT 20.6 gr IMR 4198 - FTC x 1 out of 5
Sierra 52 gr HPBT 21.1 gr IMR 4198 - FTC x 1 out of 5
21.0 gr max per Sierra

Berger 70 gr VLD 20.5 gr H335 - FTC x 1 out of 5
Berger 70 gr VLD 20.9 gr H335 - FTC x 2 out of 5
Berger 70 gr VLD 21.3 gr H335 - FTC x 2 out of 5
Berger 70 gr VLD 21.7 gr H335 - FTC x 2 out of 5
Berger 70 gr VLD 22.1 gr H335 - FTC x 1 out of 5
23.0 gr max rec per Berger

All primers CCI small rifle 400

Gas block was just changed out and fully functional before reload testing.

Went out today and shot about 100 Fiocchi 55 gr FMJBT factory loads without any FTC/FTE.

4198 clearly doesn't fit my rifle well and will probably go for fertilizer, unless I decide to buy a bolt action rifle. Perhaps I should not give up on the H335 and experiment more. Varget seems to work, but by the book has lower velocities.

Thoughts and comments are greatly appreciated.

[243winxb]

Wrong buffer spring? What i posted here > http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=502784 The gas port pressure curve is a critical part of internal ballistics for cartridges used in gas operated firearms. Gas operated weapons are generally tailored to a narrow range of powder burning rates and characteristics. If the port pressure is too low the weapon will fail to function and if to high the weapon may function too forcefully or rapidly causing extraction or cycling problems. When using the fast H4198, the pressure peaks very fast and is done producing pressure sooner than your slow powders. With such a wide range of bullet weights from 40gr to 80gr, matching the gas port location and size is critical. I have used IMR 4198- 21.5 gr maximum and 55 gr bullets in M16A1 carbine, Ruger Mini14, Armilite AR180 with no problems

[wtfTG]

Thanks for the link. That sounds like my problem exactly.

I'll keep testing. I do not think it's the gas block or a leak as it cycles perfectly with other rounds. Also the buffer tube spring was adjusted about 6 months ago and has functioned well on many other rounds. Sounds like the fast burning powders just may not work as well in my gun.

[Jimro]

wtfTG, a few suggestions:

1, try going to CCI 450 primers for more positive ignition.
2, if Varget is working, stick with it. If you can't find more Varget, look for other powders with a similar burn rate 4895, 4166, 4064, Re-15, Win748, etc.
3, check your buffer spring and weight, if they are "heavy" odds are faster powders will have a harder time cycling.

Hope this helps,
Jimro

[wtfTG]

Jimro,
Thanks for the concrete ideas to try.

I do seem to remember that the gunsmith did increase the buffer weight slightly to get better cycling when we were fine tuning the gun early on. We also changed out the gas tube and block because there was a leak. Since then things have been fine there.

I will spend some time on the Varget-level powders and see how they perform.

Thanks again!

[Gadawg88]

Here are links to a two part article I think you will find interesting.
http://www.mssblog.com/2015/12/18/re...action-rifles/

http://www.mssblog.com/2016/01/01/re...essure-part-2/

I believe the H335 may work better with lighter bullets 55gn to 62gn.

[wtfTG]

Great articles! Y'all have been most helpful.

[Road_Clam]

4198 is a very fast burning powder, and you're most likely getting "short stroking" of the buffer system. I tried 4198 and some 52gr SMK's and no go I had consistent FTF's in my Bushmaster. I'm confused why your having problems with H335 , that's a perfect powder for gas gun 223/556 .

[wtfTG]

I'll keep working with the 335 and see if I am just not at the right load for the bullet.

[Unclenick]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

The first problem, IMHO, is you are relying on bullet company data. IME, bullet company data tends to err on the low side of actual maximums for your gun. Look, instead, at Hodgdon's data for the bullet closest to the weight of yours. They show 21.4 grains of 4198 as maximum for a 53 grain bullet (close enough to your 52 grain bullet not to have to adjust the data), but that's in their own SAAMI standard test barrel which will have a chamber tighter than your Wilde chamber. You can probably go up another half a grain. If that doesn't produce any unusual pressure signs, like seeing an extractor impression on the case head, it is probably just fine in your chamber.

For H335, Hodgdon lists 26.0 grains as maximum with a 53 grain bullet, and that's a quantity that will probably make enough gas to run your gun. With a 70 grain bullet Hodgdon shows 23.5 grains maximum. I would work up to that with the Berger bullet and see how it goes. Again, your Wilde chamber is going to produce a little less pressure with a given load than a SAAMI minimum chamber dimension does (what the pressure test barrels have).

[wtfTG]

Unclenick,
You are right that I may be too low on my powders and it is good to know that the Wylde chamber can tolerate loads closer to max. I was indeed a bit afraid of blowing me and the gun up.

I'll work up some loads closer to max and continue to watch for pressure signs.
Thanks for the help!

[Unclenick]

Blowing the gun up isn't even on the table when we are talking about half a grain to a grain more powder. You would need to run the charges up more than 10% of the total to get near the top of the proof load range, which the gun should tolerate. In the case of the 26 grain maximum for a 53 grain bullet, you would be up at 28.5 to 29 grains to reach the top of the proof range. That's a pretty highly compressed load. Your gun just can't shoot very many rounds at that pressure without putting excessive wear on parts and wearing the barrel's throat out fast.

The only other warning about upper limits and proof loads is that they are established using new brass. Reloaded brass may be at risk of head separation or other failures if loaded that warm. Such failures can result in a gas leak that does damage, so I recommend you don't actually try to load that high. So I think it's wise to try to observe general limit recommendations to avoid that sort of thing. I'm just mentioning the numbers so you get a sense of where you might begin to get into trouble and to understand you aren't there yet.

In your particular case, also, the Wylde chamber has a very long freebore (0.062") as compared to a typical 223 chamber (0.025"), a SAAMI test barrel chamber (0.045") or even a NATO chamber (0.050"). It is also almost 0.002" wider at the shoulder and neck on the reamer table I have. These features will mitigate peak pressures a little (though they will wear brass out faster by making you work it more in resizing, so an annealing machine may be in your future).

[wtfTG]

Thanks for providing a clearer idea about when I might blow myself up. I am greatly reassured! and won't worry so much about approaching max load, particularly with the info about the Wylde chamber specs.

Indispensable help!!! and thanks again!!

[thump_rrr]

Don't throw out your 4198.
You may want to load some 7.62x39 at some later date. It works well with 123gr bullets in an SKS or AK.

[Road_Clam]

4198 worked excellent in my son's savage 10 .223 bolt. We found sub moa using 20.1gr of 4198 and 52 smk's.

[FlyFish]

25.0 gr of H335 under a 55 gr HPBT has been my go-to plinking load for several years. It cycles all of my half-dozen ARs (different configurations, different manufacturers, all with Wylde chambers) without any problems.

[Metal god]

25.0 gr of H335 under a 55 gr HPBT has been my go-to plinking load for several years. It cycles all of my half-dozen ARs (different configurations, different manufacturers, all with Wylde chambers) without any problems.

+1 on that

I have both 5.56 and Wylde chambers as well as carbine . middy and rifle length gas systems . A 55 gr FMJBT and 25gr of H335 with CCI #400 primers runs them all just fine .

The interesting thing I've found in your issues is the issue it self . I've not been loading for 20years but have for a few years now . I've loaded a few thousand rounds for my AR's with multiple powders , primers , bullets in multiple configurations . The ONLY time any AR failed to cycle properly even at any of the minimum charges is when "I" mis-aliened my gas block on a build . This leads me to think you also have a gas issue in some way .

Any time I test a new load for an AR I start at minimum charge . I load one round of five and fire and see if the bolt locks open . I then repeat that one more time . If the bolt locks open on both I then load the last three rounds and fire consecutively and see if the gun cycles all three and locks open again If the bolt locks open on all three test I know the rest of the charges will likely cycle the gun . I then can do the rest of that load development loading all 5 rounds in the mag at a time .

I have yet to have any minimum load not cycle any of my AR's . Except when I installed the gas block wrong . I'm of the opinion that if you plan to shoot different loads in the same rifle . Over gassed is better then perfectly gassed because you'll be less likely to run into weaker loads failing to cycle the gun . Now if you have a single purpose firearm with one maybe two loads you use for it . By all means tune the gas system to those loads but for a range fun gun or even SD/HD I'd prefer to have an over gassed gun .

I should note that when I say "over gassed " I really mean regularly gassed because the platform is generally over gassed to start with .

[wtfTG]

Sounds great. I'll continue to work with the 335.