The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The North Corral > Curios and Relics

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old November 18, 2021, 08:20 PM   #1
BornFighting88
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 1, 2021
Posts: 455
C&R license questions, for the ATF-savvy.

Hey all,

If this is something I need to just reach out to the ATF about myself, just say so.

I have a C&R license, and I am totally aware of what it does allow me to do and does not allow me to do…… Mostly.

I don’t plan on making money, as that is not allowed for an 03. But if I bought a project gun, one that needed to be fixed up, but was C&R eligible, and I do the work myself. Does that:

1. Take C&R status away from it, therefore requiring me to “dispense of“ the firearm (to my self) via my bound book??
2. Mean I must then go through an 01 to ship it, should I sell it out of state??

Also, (and this is completely theoretical, I have NOT done this at all) should I sell it merely to get the funds to do another project, does that:

1. Constitute making money or conducting business with the license??
2. Fall under “Gunsmithing activity” to the extent of having to invest in a smithing license??

Again, if I need to bite the proverbial bullet and just call the ATF for their answers, I will. No big deal.
BornFighting88 is offline  
Old November 18, 2021, 09:13 PM   #2
dogtown tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 2,859
Quote:
BornFighting88

1. Take C&R status away from it, therefore requiring me to “dispense of“ the firearm (to my self) via my bound book??
You acquire a C&R eligible firearm and record it in your bound book.
What you do to that firearm later matters not one bit. If your gunsmithing results in you modifying it to where it no longer is a curio or relic, it just remains a Title I firearm.
Example: You have a Winchester 94 from the 1950's......you remove the buttstock and weld in an AR buffer tube and attach the latest Magpul shoulder stock. It's no longer C&R, but is still a Title I firearm.

If you decide to sell that rifle, note in your records who it was transferred to.
Either directly to a buyer in your own state or a licensed dealer in another state.




Quote:
2. Mean I must then go through an 01 to ship it, should I sell it out of state??
Federal law allows anyone to ship a firearm interstate TO a licensed dealer, but does not require the firearm be shipped FROM a licensed dealer.



Quote:
Also, (and this is completely theoretical, I have NOT done this at all) should I sell it merely to get the funds to do another project, does that:

1. Constitute making money or conducting business with the license??
Once, probably not. But understand the 03FFL is for collecting (as in keeping), not buying then reselling to enhance your collection. At one time guys would buy a dozen Mosins, keep the prettiest for themselves and sell the rest......that is clearly not collecting and ATF has issued determination letters stating that is engaging in the business of dealing in firearms.


Quote:
2. Fall under “Gunsmithing activity” to the extent of having to invest in a smithing license??
One does not need a license to perform gunsmithing on his own firearms.
There is no "gunsmithing license". If you want to perform gunsmithing as a business activity you need either an 01 Dealer or 07 Manufacturer FFL.
__________________
Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers)

Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
dogtown tom is offline  
Old November 18, 2021, 09:17 PM   #3
Bill DeShivs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2006
Posts: 10,791
I would think that ATF has published information on C&R licenses that would answer most of your questions.
I believe you can buy/sell (within reason) to upgrade your collection.
__________________
Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler
www.billdeshivs.com
Bill DeShivs is offline  
Old November 19, 2021, 07:25 PM   #4
BornFighting88
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 1, 2021
Posts: 455
ATF is all lawyer talk, and lawyers ruin informative things.

All, thanks for answers. Dog town: Thank you specifically. Made it easy for me. I will definitely check the ATF site again. I think my plan will be fine.

I have bought two rifles with my 03. Both of them were projects, and I had Numrich on a bookmark tab on my web browser. I still have both, haven’t sold any, but doing the work to them, while didn’t necessarily modify them like you pointed out, the swapped parts are either new manufacture or surplus.

I’ll just save up and wait until piggy bank gets fat enough to collect another one.
BornFighting88 is offline  
Old November 20, 2021, 11:26 AM   #5
dogtown tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 2,859
Quote:
BornFighting88 ATF is all lawyer talk, and lawyers ruin informative things.
Please don't be dismissive about "lawyer talk".
If you are going to shoot, use, collect and enjoy firearms, that "lawyer talk" is pretty damn important. It's not difficult to violate a federal firearm law.


It astounds me that licensed dealers don't read the instructions on the Form 4473, or ask questions whose answers are easily found in ATF regs. But, they are "in the business"........and should know better how serious a violation is viewed by ATF.

Those with a C&R are bound just as equally by those regulations, but have a bit less recordkeeping because they aren't in the business. Where 03FFL
s get in trouble is pushing the limits of their "collecting" activity and actually crossing into "engaging in the business of dealing in firearms".

If your interest lies in "project guns" and repairing, replacing parts and refinishing them, then selling it and moving on to your next project........you aren't collecting, but engaging in the business of dealing in firearms.

It's not just how you acquire a firearm, but your intent. If you acquire a C&R and intend to resell.....thats dealing in firearms. ATF ain't going to view that in a positive light and at best tell you to stop and if you wish to continue get an 01FFL. At worst, they seize your guns and pursue a criminal investigation.

How many guns involved doesn't really matter, its the pattern that determines if you are engaging in the business of dealing in firearms.
__________________
Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers)

Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
dogtown tom is offline  
Old November 20, 2021, 02:43 PM   #6
BornFighting88
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 1, 2021
Posts: 455
Tom,

Figured. Thanks.
BornFighting88 is offline  
Old June 3, 2022, 12:16 AM   #7
5whiskey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 23, 2005
Location: US
Posts: 3,546
While I see this thread is quite old, there's almost no activity in this forum so I'll respond.

Tom has issued generally good advice, but the 03 allows you to obtain AND DISPOSE to further a collection. Yes, the purchase of a dozen Mosin rifles, and subsequent sale of the worst 10 of them, is a definite no go. If you buy a couple rifles at a deal that are C&R eligible, but maybe less interesting to you, to use as trade fodder for something you really want at a later date, then that may be OK. There will be very specific criteria that either makes this obviously OK or in the gray area of not so ok. Was it a sale or a trade? How often do you do this? Did you dispose to another dealer or private party? Was it in the genuine interest to further your collection? Making a profit doesn't automatically make a disposition a no-go or crime, but it can be circumstantial evidence that perhaps you were "engaging in the busines of" buying and selling firearms. A windfall trade you lucked out on 5 years ago where you made a small profit likely won't make you a criminal for disposing of another C&R firearm today to obtain another one to further your collection. 5 in the past year probably could with the right (or wrong, depending on how you look at it) US prosecutor. The problem is, as these questions indicate, is how subjective the could be. One end of the spectrum says selling a firearm more than one time could constitute engaging in the business or buying and selling. This is rather absolutist, but this view exists. Fortunately, most criminal violations require intent. It's going to be awfully difficult to show intent that you were "engaged in the business of" for 2 firearm sales used to further a collection that occurred 5 years apart, when the 03ffl allows you to obtain and dispose to further a collection.

Not engaged in the business of means not engaged in the business of though.. Buying to modify and resale to obtain funds for later projects still dwells too deep into "engaged in the business of." It doesn't have to be your primary income. Even a hobby business meant to fund your ongoing hobby is a business.
__________________
Support the NRA-ILA Auction, ends 03/09/2018

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=593946

Last edited by 5whiskey; June 3, 2022 at 12:28 AM.
5whiskey is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:02 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.04561 seconds with 10 queries