Forward Assist - Why Everyone NEEDS Them... - Page 3

tangolima · January 5, 2024, 02:35 PM

Right. So they don't do press check at all? There is chance the bolt fails to chamber a round, say when the magazine isn't completely seated.

Germans and Brits are in NATO. Don't they follow the same doctrines to have chambered weapons when they go outside the wire?

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

davidsog · January 5, 2024, 03:24 PM

Quote:

With a recreational rifle, I see no “need” for the FA except for some SHTF fantasies that some people have.

A personal choice and I have no issues outside of the attempt to disparage the decisions of others to have a FA on their rifle.

As per General Gage, The Crown agrees with you in your perception of SHTF fantasy.

No gunpowder either....

Quote:

One response to the problem was to deprive the
Americans of gunpowder.

Quote:

The British became concerned that Massachusetts towns had
been withdrawing their gunpowder from the powder houses.46
Before dawn on September 1, 1774, 260 Redcoats acting on
General Gage‘s order sailed up the Mystic River and seized
hundreds of barrels of powder from the Charlestown powder
house (next to the present site of Tufts University, in what is now
Somerville).47 The only powder that was left to take belonged to
the colonial government, so Gage was within his legal rights to
seize it. But the seizure still incensed the public.48

file:///C:/Users/Owner/Downloads/SSRN-id1967702.pdf

Bunch of weirdoes back then with their SHTF fantasies. Pfft.

Facts are the natural state of the world is not "All Men are Created Equal with Liberty and Justice for All" but rather it is "why should my wealth and power be subject to your law protecting the weak/powerless from what I want to do."

The only thing stopping them is a rifle.

davidsog · January 5, 2024, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Don't they follow the same doctrines to have chambered weapons when they go outside the wire?

No. They follow their doctrine. NATO is only for integration of strategic command. Only recently has this extended to the Operational level. When soldiers lock and load is a tactical decision.

rickyrick · January 5, 2024, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Bunch of weirdoes back then with their SHTF fantasies. Pfft.

Point taken.
I will amend and say that a person could get along with a rifle without a forward assist, I’ve even experimented with pushing the bolt forward with just my thumb in the bolt carrier indent, lol.
I have pallets of ammunition, just in case. There’s no law enforcement near me, I have to handle things myself For probably a good part of an hour. Maybe longer.

**44 AMP** · January 5, 2024, 03:49 PM

Quote:

"All Men are Created Equal with Liberty and Justice for All"

Congratulations on your skill at taking phrases out of context from different documents and sources, and mashing them together so that the intended meanings are obscured.

I don't see how that applies to the topic of AR forward assists, though.

Quote:

It wasn't a feature on the rifle until after the Army gained experience with the rifle at the edges of its design operating parameters.

The forward assist was the Army's "fix" for the problem they created with poor training ("the M16 doesn't need to be cleaned"), lack of support (supply of proper cleaning kits, etc) and a totally unnecessary change to a different powder in its ammo specs.

But that is ancient history now, so pffft, right??

davidsog · January 5, 2024, 03:53 PM

Quote:

No NATO or coalition commander has FULLCOM over the forces assigned to their since, in assigning forces to NATO, nations will delegate only operational command or operational control.

NATO never has TACCON or Tactical Control over any of its forces.

Quote:

Nations control their own capabilities, until release to NATO through the TOA mechanism. It is nations’ responsibility to provide their deployed force with the required combat effectiveness before TOA.

Nations are responsible for ensuring OPCON but not TACCON.

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.coemed.org/files/stanags/01_AJP/AJP-3_EDC_V1_E_2490.pdf

davidsog · January 5, 2024, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Point taken.
I will amend and say that a person could get along with a rifle without a forward assist, I’ve even experimented with pushing the bolt forward with just my thumb in the bolt carrier indent, lol.
I have pallets of ammunition, just in case. There’s no law enforcement near me, I have to handle things myself For probably a good part of an hour. Maybe longer.

I agree. Keep some gloves handy for touching a hot bolt. For a collector, a FA would be taboo on period correct rifle clones and there is absolutely nothing wrong with having one or not having one.

Quote:

Congratulations on your skill at taking phrases out of context from different documents and sources, and mashing them together so that the intended meanings are obscured.

Catty

Armybrat · January 8, 2024, 02:42 PM

I had an early S&W Sport AR15 with no FA or dust cover.
They were nicknamed “slick sides”.
Looked like this one, except mine was clean.

rc · January 8, 2024, 06:00 PM

Those who have an M1 Carbine/Garand derived action don't need no skinkin forward assist. We have bolt handles to beat on when we want rounds to go into the chamber and when we want them to come out

. Sadly even with that benefit, Russian steel case can still jam up a gun till you pull out a clearing rod.

**44 AMP** · January 8, 2024, 07:23 PM

While lots of people have no issues, others do, so the only thing I run steel cased ammo through is Combloc designed weapons. For me, reliable function is more important than the cheapest possible ammo cost.

rickyrick · January 8, 2024, 07:30 PM

Never used steel ammunition in an AR, but my Mini14 ran it just fine…

Those complaining about forward assists never had a Mosin Nagant, a 2x4 literally is the forward assist, and reverse assist lol.

orionengnr · January 8, 2024, 08:01 PM

Quote:

I know a guy that used one once. Assisted a 300bo into a 556 chamber. Pulled the trigger & things got ugly. Luck was with him & just messed up his hand,the rifle wasn't as lucky.

It was a new box of 556 ammo that had a 300 bo round in it & he didn't notice it when loading the mag.

I read about a .300BLK in a 5.56 once, and owning both I am aware to not be "that guy". I'd like to think that if you did not notice that one short fat .300BLK round while you are loading the mag...your situational awareness is probably sub-par. Just sayin'...

As regards the three-pronger, I worked with a guy who served in Vietnam pretty early on (late 60s/early 70s) and he told me that story too. In his version, it was the actual three-pronge flash hider being used to engage the band, then twist-and-snap...and that was what caused the barrel damage.
The DOD's response (in his version) was to replace the three-pronger with the small birdcage. Sounded plausible at the time.

I think the HBAR came along much, much later. Maybe 1990s?

And to keep it (sorta) OT, I have owned a number of AR platform rifles, and have never used the FA (mostly because of what I have read and heard about it usually making the problem worse). But at my age, rifles are range toys, not daily-use tools....

rc · January 8, 2024, 08:18 PM

I'm not sure what it is about my mini but if I run brass and then switch to steel, i've seen it stick. From a clean chamber, no problem.

lunger · January 8, 2024, 08:26 PM

Deleted

Ignition Override · January 14, 2024, 12:11 AM

Oh no-
They forgot to design FAs in my PTR-91 “G3”, FALs and M1A.

**44 AMP** · January 14, 2024, 07:45 PM

I've had personal experience with three different makers "AR-10" class rifles, and none of them had a forward assist.

The "explanation" I was given was that the bigger, heavier parts (and spring) don't "need" a forward assist. And, if you get a round that doesn't fully chamber, EJECT IT and load another round.

The PTR-91 “G3”, FALs and M1A rifles all operate differently than the AR-15 in the way they cycle and lock up, and don't have separate forward assists, and seem to work well without them.

Ignition Override · January 14, 2024, 11:59 PM

44 AMP: Exactly, they are totally different designs than any AR. And the HK/PTR-91 is so unique. With its only "gas system" being the roller-delayed blowback force, its in a really weird world of its own (as with the MP5, HK-93 etc)..

In my previous comment I was trying to add a little humor, mock surprise, with no emoji.

January 8, 2024, 06:00 PM	#59
rc Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2001 Location: CA Posts: 1,769	Those who have an M1 Carbine/Garand derived action don't need no skinkin forward assist. We have bolt handles to beat on when we want rounds to go into the chamber and when we want them to come out. Sadly even with that benefit, Russian steel case can still jam up a gun till you pull out a clearing rod.

January 8, 2024, 07:23 PM	#60
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,860	While lots of people have no issues, others do, so the only thing I run steel cased ammo through is Combloc designed weapons. For me, reliable function is more important than the cheapest possible ammo cost. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

January 8, 2024, 07:30 PM	#61
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,238	Never used steel ammunition in an AR, but my Mini14 ran it just fine… Those complaining about forward assists never had a Mosin Nagant, a 2x4 literally is the forward assist, and reverse assist lol. __________________ Woohoo, I’m back In Texas!!!

January 14, 2024, 12:11 AM	#65
Ignition Override Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2008 Location: About 20 nm from the Big Muddy Posts: 2,887	Oh no- They forgot to design FAs in my PTR-91 “G3”, FALs and M1A. Last edited by Ignition Override; January 14, 2024 at 04:17 PM.

January 14, 2024, 07:45 PM	#66
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,860	I've had personal experience with three different makers "AR-10" class rifles, and none of them had a forward assist. The "explanation" I was given was that the bigger, heavier parts (and spring) don't "need" a forward assist. And, if you get a round that doesn't fully chamber, EJECT IT and load another round. The PTR-91 “G3”, FALs and M1A rifles all operate differently than the AR-15 in the way they cycle and lock up, and don't have separate forward assists, and seem to work well without them. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

January 5, 2024, 02:35 PM	#51
tangolima Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2013 Posts: 3,834	Right. So they don't do press check at all? There is chance the bolt fails to chamber a round, say when the magazine isn't completely seated. Germans and Brits are in NATO. Don't they follow the same doctrines to have chambered weapons when they go outside the wire? -TL Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

January 8, 2024, 08:18 PM	#63
rc Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2001 Location: CA Posts: 1,769	I'm not sure what it is about my mini but if I run brass and then switch to steel, i've seen it stick. From a clean chamber, no problem.

January 8, 2024, 08:26 PM	#64
lunger Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2007 Posts: 443	Deleted

January 14, 2024, 11:59 PM	#67
Ignition Override Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2008 Location: About 20 nm from the Big Muddy Posts: 2,887	44 AMP: Exactly, they are totally different designs than any AR. And the HK/PTR-91 is so unique. With its only "gas system" being the roller-delayed blowback force, its in a really weird world of its own (as with the MP5, HK-93 etc).. In my previous comment I was trying to add a little humor, mock surprise, with no emoji.