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Old August 7, 2019, 10:09 AM   #1
Double Naught Spy
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It Does No Good To Have A Permit and NOT Carry

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/06/us/wo...Top+Stories%29

This guy was shopping with his mom at Walmart in El Paso. Mom has a carry permit, but did not bring her gun. When he asked mom for the gun, she had nothing to give him.

He was aided by a Customs & Border Patrol agent after he was shot. Guess who didn't have her gun either? That's right, the CBP agent.

The guy in the interview engaged the shooter by throwing things at the shooter. He fought the best he could with what he had and I commend him for that.

Beyond that, people were at the Walmart that could carry guns legally who did not have guns with them, confirmed, because they were just going to Walmart.

OMG, the pro gun and gun carrying public needs to have it beaten in their brains that they don't get to pick and choose when bad things will happen. Your gun at home or out in your car does you no good if you aren't in your home or out in your car.

If you can carry, carry, even if it is just a quick trip to Walmart.
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Old August 7, 2019, 10:16 AM   #2
NoSecondBest
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If they don't want to carry, that's up to them. I know a lot of women who have permits because their husband wanted them to get one. They aren't comfortable with guns and don't carry them. Same with law enforcement. I know a lot of cops who don't shoot other than the yearly qualification mandated by their departments. They don't carry off duty. Again, personal choice. There were people there who had guns and didn't use them also.
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Old August 7, 2019, 11:29 AM   #3
tjmga
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Was the Walmart a gun free zone?
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Old August 7, 2019, 11:39 AM   #4
zincwarrior
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjmga View Post
Was the Walmart a gun free zone?
typically not in Texas.
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Old August 7, 2019, 12:07 PM   #5
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This past weekend has changed my mind about having the permit, but not carrying.

D
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Old August 7, 2019, 12:11 PM   #6
briandg
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Quote:
Was the Walmart a gun free zone?
To me, there are limitations as to how far I will go to obey the rules set by businesses.

There are legally forbidden places and there are places that are up to the judgment of the owner or manager. The way that the law reads, it is not a criminal matter if I carry a gun into a walmart, with or without permission. I can be told to get off of the premises or even removed from the premises, but I can't be arrested unless I refuse to comply with their instructions.

It appears that the current laws here also require that a business posts a huge sign, and without that sign, it is assumed that there is no objection.

I will take the risk of being told to leave the grocery store rather than face the risk of being unarmed when someone's banana falls too far from the tree.
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Old August 7, 2019, 12:37 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by briandg View Post
There are legally forbidden places and there are places that are up to the judgment of the owner or manager. The way that the law reads, it is not a criminal matter if I carry a gun into a walmart, with or without permission. I can be told to get off of the premises or even removed from the premises, but I can't be arrested unless I refuse to comply with their instructions.
That is how the law reads here in Alabama. In our town the only gun-free zones that I'm aware of (besides those mandated by federal law) are hospitals, medical offices (all posted), and the Catholic Church that we attend (also posted). I don't think anyone else cares.

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Old August 7, 2019, 12:56 PM   #8
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OMG, the pro gun and gun carrying public needs to have it beaten in their brains that they don't get to pick and choose when bad things will happen. Your gun at home or out in your car does you no good if you aren't in your home or out in your car.
I make a conscious decision to not carry my gun at times. Between running, working, and getting things done around a 40 acre homestead there are times when I am simply exhausted. Its not uncommon to look back at a week and realize of the 49 hours of sleep most experts recommend as a minimum I have had 30 and I'm not young enough to do that without it impacting me. We might go out to do something and my wife drive's because frankly I don't feel up to it. My gun retention ability has dropped during these times as has, no doubt, my situational awareness.

I don't need someone to carry who is not fully mentally prepared to carry in that moment. Most of our training is not so good that we can just let training carry us through the day. If your heart and mind is not up to the task bringing a gun serves little purpose.

As to the person who asked his mother for her gun and did not get it. Pardon me if its not respectful but if your plan is to ask mommy for a gun when you don't have one for yourself it is not your mothers fault for leaving it home.
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Old August 7, 2019, 01:09 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zincwarrior
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjmga
Was the Walmart a gun free zone?
typically not in Texas.
This may not be a typical Walmart. The adjacent mall is owned by a company that has already gone on record to confirm that their properties are gun-free zones. I haven't been able to get clarity from the various articles I've read but some of them imply that the Walmart store is part of the overall mall complex. If that's the case, then Walmart's usual policy may have been overridden by the policy of the owner's of the property.

Then we get to the fact that in Texas a no guns sign has no force of law unless it complies with strict requirements in statute. If the store was posted with a proper 30.06 sign, it was legally a no guns premises. If there was no 30.06 sign, guns were allowed.
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Old August 7, 2019, 01:13 PM   #10
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i have carried for so long im almost never without a gun. I think part of carrying all the time is having multiple guns you can carry for all situations and comfort (i know the arguments against this but in my mind its better to have a gun even if its not my "primary carry" rather than no gun at all.

I work in an office and have to dress up, while i have heavier guns in my actual office work carry is normally a 32 in a pocket holster or a pf9. These 2 are both light enough i can wear in light shorts too, either pocket or the pf9 has a versaclip. Ankle carry for a snub 38 when for some reason pocket carry is out, also thunderwear when i want to carry more gun and the pocket doesnt work like in dress up situations or a night on the town ( and i move up to a glock 27 or sig 938 then).

I have a commander 1911 i sometimes carry too......on top of this i have a full sized pistol in all my cars.

Even on vacation at the beach, had a sling pack with a pistol in it on my towel while im swimming in the ocean.......im to the point now i immediately notice and feel odd those few times i somehow end up out and about and dont have a gun. So to me its all about comfort, if i can do it comfortably i can always find a way to carry.
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Old August 7, 2019, 01:15 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briandg
Quote:
Was the Walmart a gun free zone?
To me, there are limitations as to how far I will go to obey the rules set by businesses.

There are legally forbidden places and there are places that are up to the judgment of the owner or manager. The way that the law reads, it is not a criminal matter if I carry a gun into a walmart, with or without permission. I can be told to get off of the premises or even removed from the premises, but I can't be arrested unless I refuse to comply with their instructions.
In Texas, if the no guns allowed signage complies with criteria established in statute (the aptly named "30.06 signs", derived from the coincidence that the requirements are in section 30.06 of the statutes), the signs do have force of law and you can be arrested for carrying even if you have not been asked to leave and refused.

We should all be aware that some states afford "no guns allowed" signs force of law, and other states do not. Each person who carries needs to do his or her own research to understand which category applies in their respective state. And we need to be careful about offering blanket advice that you can't be arrested unless you are asked to leave and you refuse, because that is not the case in those states that do afford the signs force of law.
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Old August 7, 2019, 01:21 PM   #12
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Yes, some areas are inherently more dangerous than others; however, criminals & psychopaths are mobile and may show up wherever whenever.
There is nowhere I'd prefer to defend myself with a pocket 380 rather than a Glock 23/22/35 so the Glock gets carried everywhere.
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Old August 7, 2019, 02:11 PM   #13
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Quote:
Was the Walmart a gun free zone?
No. I have never seen a Wal-Mart in Texas that was. Mass shootings and other shootings DO happen in non-GFZs.

Quote:
This may not be a typical Walmart.
Yes it was. The property is owned by Wal-Mart as per the tax records. It is at 7101 W. Gateway and is on the tax rolls for $6,482,313.00
http://www.epcad.org/Search?Keywords...e=1&PageSize=0

Even if posted, the sign would not apply to LEOs such as the CBP officer.

Quote:
The adjacent mall is owned by a company that has already gone on record to confirm that their properties are gun-free zones.
What happens on an adjacent property has nothing to do with what happens on Sam's/Walmart property.

However, just to clarify, you are talking about the Cielo Vista Mall where Glenn Oakley was in Footlocker and carrying a gun?

Cielo Vista has a no guns policy, but apparently isn't posted 30.06 or 30.07.

Quote:
I haven't been able to get clarity from the various articles I've read but some of them imply that the Walmart store is part of the overall mall complex.
That's why you don't go to the news articles for such information. Many of the news articles implied and some stated that the shooting was at the Cielo Vista Mall and the shooting was at Walmart.

Quote:
As to the person who asked his mother for her gun and did not get it. Pardon me if its not respectful but if your plan is to ask mommy for a gun when you don't have one for yourself it is not your mothers fault for leaving it home.
He may not be able to have an LTC. Texas LTCs have a lot of ways that you can exclude you from getting a LTC. A DWI, deferred adjudication, late on child support, etc. can all disqualify you from an LTC, even though you may still be a gun owner. It isn't his fault his mother left a gun at home, but it is her fault. She couldn't defend herself either with the gun she left at home.
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Old August 7, 2019, 04:34 PM   #14
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So get arrested or shot maybe killed? It's up to you. If you get arrested you will be put in jail but not killed. Hell of a choice.
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Old August 7, 2019, 05:48 PM   #15
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I don't really believe I'll ever really need a gun but having a license for one, I carry 100% of the time. If a building has a sign it's a gun free zone, I generally won't go in the building. All the hospitals here have the sign and if I need in I leave the gun in the car. have to drop insulin needle's off at county sheriff's office, leave gun in the car. No law say's I have to go into any business. They don't want my gun, they don't want my business. If gun free zone's are not marked, I don't ask; I carry.
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Old August 7, 2019, 06:22 PM   #16
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I carry often but not always.. it is what it is

I am not a public sentinel.. If I need my gun and don't have it, that's on me. If that is the circumstance that I created, I have to live with it and I don't have much right to complain about it. At the same time, I think other people have less of a right to complain about it than I do. I don't worry about what other people decide to do, I focus on my own affairs.
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Old August 7, 2019, 10:54 PM   #17
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I have gotten to the point that I carry if I leave the house.

And sometimes I forget to check the wall/door/entryway for the A.R.S. signage that would prohibit me from carrying within the walls of whatever store/building I'm about to enter.

I've never had a problem with this in the 14 years I've been carrying in AZ. Then again, I don't dress/behave anything like a dirtbag, either.

I'm not looking to become some kind of hero if something happens. I have no illusions about my relative proficiency with a gun or my tactical capabilities in a real fight. I know that at the range I'm better than average, and that I've had some training. None of that makes me John Wick. Or even John McLane from Die Hard. I just have come to realize that I'd rather be armed IF something happened, rather than wishing I was, like that kid with his mommy.

It's a very similar mindset to the old pilot saying, "it's always better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air, than to be in the air wishing you were on the ground."
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Old August 8, 2019, 01:12 AM   #18
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I know a number of people who have permits. I know very few who carry on any sort of a regular basis.

You pay for the gun, you pay for the ammo, for the class, you pay the fee for the permit and for renewals, you spend time and effort on the class and time and effort and money practicing enough to be able to use your gun competently. You spend money on holsters and other gear so you can carry the gun.

And then you leave it at home the day you need it.

Makes sense.

Before anyone asks: "How do you know what day you will need it?", that's exactly the point! You don't know. If you want to have it when you need it, you have to carry it all the time.

I've seen numbers from the police stating that there were 3,000 people in the store. Even assuming that 2/3 of people in the store were Mexican citizens who had legally come over the border to shop (and therefore wouldn't have permits), there still should have been well over 30 people in the store with permits based on the fact that 1 in 29 TX residents has a carry permit.

That says to me that permit holders aren't carrying and/or they won't engage mass shooters.

We make a big deal of the deterrent effect of carry permits and guns in general. Well, it doesn't take a genius to see that there is no deterrent effect on this type of crime, either because permit holders don't have their guns on them, or because they won't use them.

Look, I'm not saying that everyone has to get a permit and everyone has to carry, and everyone has to engage the shooter if they find themselves in a mass shooting. Everybody gets to make their own choices and they really answer to no one but themselves for the choices they make.

I'm just saying that if the gun community wants to HONESTLY claim that armed citizens really make a difference in situations like the El Paso shooting, then things are going to have to change from the way they are now. Because the way it is now, armed citizens only very rarely make a difference in mass shootings.

We often blame GFZs and restrictions, but here's a shooting that wasn't in a GFZ and in a place where there were no restrictions, in a gun friendly state, with a high percentage of permit holders, and the guy basically got to keep shooting until he was ready to stop.

Even if your personal defense strategy does NOT include engaging mass shooters and you carry ONLY to defend yourself and your family, you still have to carry all the time if you want to have a reasonable chance of having a gun when you need it. As far as I can tell, that's not happening very much. People apparently like the feeling of knowing that they COULD carry, but when it comes to the grind of always carrying so you'll have it when you need it, that's too much work and the gun mostly stays at home in the safe.

NOT carrying is the prerogative of every firearm owner, but those of us who know that's the option they exercise most of the time need to at least be honest when it comes to making claims about deterrent value. e.g. "Oh yeah, concealed carriers could make a difference in mass shootings. But when you consider that most of them are like me and rarely carry even though they have permits--in reality it's very unlikely that they will make a difference"

And they need to be honest with themselves about the likelihood of matching the very rare occasions when they will desperately need a gun with the few occasions that they actually carry.

Ok, that said, I know that EVERYONE here carries any time it's legal. So I'm preaching to the choir. Just so we're all on the same page...
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Old August 8, 2019, 06:29 AM   #19
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What it's done for me is confirm my choice to carry, all the time, and now, most of the time when at home..call it whatever you want but lotsa people out there with bad intentions..who have guns..
Quote:
i have carried for so long im almost never without a gun. I think part of carrying all the time is having multiple guns you can carry for all situations and comfort (i know the arguments against this but in my mind its better to have a gun even if its not my "primary carry" rather than no gun at all.
agree..
Quote:
I don't really believe I'll ever really need a gun but having a license for one, I carry 100% of the time.
agree

Wife(who is NOT a gun person in any way) and I discussing this the other day. Since all we can do is take care of us and the grandaughters and grown kids the best we can...we think before we go anywhere with granddaughters..because of the last WE. AND I will carry, to protect me and mine..and maybe someday, I'll tell wife I do..
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Old August 8, 2019, 07:45 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy View Post
https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/06/us/wo...Top+Stories%29

OMG, the pro gun and gun carrying public needs to have it beaten in their brains that they don't get to pick and choose when bad things will happen. Your gun at home or out in your car does you no good if you aren't in your home or out in your car.

If you can carry, carry, even if it is just a quick trip to Walmart.
I am one of those people that has a carry permit but chooses not to always carry my weapon. For that matter, I also choose not to always carry a cellphone either. Last time I checked, this is a free country and what I do or don't do is strictly my business. I obtained a carry permit mainly for when I'm traveling long distances, I like to have a gun with me accessible in my vehicle.

I've gone through cycles of where I carry all the time to some of the time to rarely, and back again. The truth is that carrying a gun adds an entire layer of extra stuff I have to do and have to remember through out the day that I often find inconvenient. Maybe I don't want to deal with extra stuff. Maybe I don't want to have to invest in more than one or two pair of slacks to accommodate my carry style for constant EDC. Or, maybe I don't want to have to think through what to do with my gun when I go to the gym every day. Whatever it is, that's nobody else's business but mine.
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Old August 8, 2019, 07:54 AM   #21
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As I noted above I don't carry all the time. I carry when I decide to carry. If you carry all the time, or not at all, that is on you. Your choice and you chose to live with the consequences. Don't look to me for your well being. The people you can look for to defend the public safety are paid to do such and carry a duty to do such. It is important to note that these same individuals do not have any legal duty to defend your individual safety.

Interestingly I don't make the argument that "the only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun" I make the argument that the right to the tools of effective self defense is a fundamental individual right of existence. The premise that someone else MUST carry (or not) does not logically fit the argument I make and is immoral paternalism in my opinion.
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Old August 8, 2019, 09:10 AM   #22
Double Naught Spy
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Quote:
I am one of those people that has a carry permit but chooses not to always carry my weapon. For that matter, I also choose not to always carry a cellphone either. Last time I checked, this is a free country and what I do or don't do is strictly my business. I obtained a carry permit mainly for when I'm traveling long distances, I like to have a gun with me accessible in my vehicle.
You are right, it is a free country. I can't tell you what to do. I have no authority over you or anyone else here. It is just a public suggestion that I am somewhat passionate about. I just see the irony of the situation where people get carry permits to protect themselves and then don't carry, or like you, carry randomly or rarely.

God forbid that I trod on anyone's right to not protect yourselves with a gun. I apologize if any of you took it in that manner.

Quote:
Interestingly I don't make the argument that "the only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun" I make the argument that the right to the tools of effective self defense is a fundamental individual right of existence. The premise that someone else MUST carry (or not) does not logically fit the argument I make and is immoral paternalism in my opinion.
You have never seen me make that argument better. I was actually quite pleased by the victim of the story making use of improvised weapons to slow and impede the shooter as best he could. This wasn't a guy who "goes to his mommy" for a gun, but a fighter. Good for him! Wal-mart is full of improvisable weapons. Most are very short range and not nearly as effective as a firearm, but they are weapons and you can fight. Far too many people have the view that they are defenseless without a gun. Those people, in my mind, are already victims to events that haven't happened yet.

Additionally, I have never said somebody MUST carry a gun. I think it is dumb that people don't when they can and that is my opinion. This is just the latest example of where we know people were at an event that needed to defend themselves but left their much better tool for the job elsewhere. No immoral paternalism, just encouragement.

I will quote JohnKSa
Quote:
NOT carrying is the prerogative of every firearm owner, but those of us who know that's the option they exercise most of the time need to at least be honest when it comes to making claims about deterrent value. e.g. "Oh yeah, concealed carriers could make a difference in mass shootings. But when you consider that most of them are like me and rarely carry even though they have permits--in reality it's very unlikely that they will make a difference"
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Old August 8, 2019, 09:40 AM   #23
Lohman446
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Another scenario

What about those concealed carriers who might have been present, been aware of what is happening, and chose not to engage?

Does the argument fault them?
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Old August 8, 2019, 09:53 AM   #24
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I wonder if people not carrying all the time don't because their gun is an inconvenience for them? I don't carry my P89 Ruger a lot. It's heavy and big. If I were going to a city like Portland, Ore, I'd carry the P89. Then it's about fire power. But the truth is, I avoid going to Portland. Nothing there I can't get somewhere else. Going through, I stay on the interstate, no reason to put myself in a position where I might need a gun. Had a problem with a drug addict a while back. I did pull my carry gun, S&W Shield 9c on him to get him off my property one time. He's in jail now looking at going to prison so I am back to my Shield. I went to the Ruger while he was loose only because he threatened to kill me and I determined I wanted the fire power.

I suspect that if more people gave a though to the gun they carry it might make carry more likely. But carrying around a 1911 will get old after a while. Carrying my P89 get's old. Got the girlfriend a small 380 I wasn't sure she'd like but she wanted it. Well small grips are not comfortable to shoot so will be looking for something else for her. I don't care for pocket guns, never even tried one but if I have a gun in my pocket it makes it just a bit of a problem getting out my car key's or change at the check out. I wear it so I have no trouble with it getting into my front pocket. Moved my wallet from right rear to left rear, holster doesn't interfere with it that way. If you don't carry all the time, could be your just trying to carry the wrong gun! I really don't believe I'll ever have to shoot someone but on the rare chance I have to, the gun at home will be no help. With the drug addict, I was at home and I carry here too. When he threatened to kill me I got out the gun and he stopped coming at me immediately. Only mistake I made was not shooting him, it would have been a public service!

I carry mostly because I can. I really don't believe I'll ever need a gun to stop anyone yet I did right here at home in a town of less than 40 people, go figure! Spent most my life driving truck's for a living and have been into every dung hole in the country many time's, learned how to avoid trouble but still carried anyway. Illegal but better judged by 12 than carried by 6!

You don't want to carry all the time, by all means don't do it. But I am not running into a situation where I'm going to endanger myself or my family trying to help someone else. You have the right to carry, you choose not to! I strongly suggest you learn to avoid situation's that could cause you trouble, I avoid major cities.

The extremely vast majority of us will never be in a situation where we need a gun. Problem is a few will be and we haven't a clue who the few is!
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Old August 8, 2019, 10:50 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
You are right, it is a free country. I can't tell you what to do. I have no authority over you or anyone else here. It is just a public suggestion that I am somewhat passionate about. I just see the irony of the situation where people get carry permits to protect themselves and then don't carry, or like you, carry randomly or rarely.
Should I? Shouldn't I? Must I? Am I a disgrace to the Second Amendment if I don't?

Personal choice. It's also a personal choice, for those who carry, to decide how wide to spread the umbrella of protection. Just myself? Myself and my wife? Myself, my wife, and any other relatives who might be with us? Friends? Acquaintances? Strangers caught up in a "situation" with me?

It's a personal decision.

A number of years ago, on either this forum or another "gun" forum, there was a discussion of those states that require you to obtain a homeowner's express consent before entering his/her home with a firearm. Many people thought that was ridiculous, and a goodly number of participants felt (some rather strongly) that it would be immoral to enter someone else's home with a gun without having first obtained their permission.

It happened that I was about to visit a friend in another state. We had met and become friends over Jeeps, but he is also a shooter (disgustingly good, in fact ... but I digress). That forum discussion was nagging at me, so I finally picked up the phone and called him to ask if he would object if I carried while at his house. His answer:

"Hell, no! If anything happens, I won't need to look out for you."
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