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Old August 6, 2019, 10:17 AM   #26
DaveBj
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There's a lot of good commentary here, much of which boils down to two words that I've already used -- situational awareness. I would add one more -- reconnaissance.

Most of my time at Walmart is spent in the food section, and one thing about that part of the store -- there's plenty of cover.

D
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Old August 6, 2019, 12:11 PM   #27
T. O'Heir
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"...the heinous crimes committed in Texas and Ohio?..." Two very different circumstances that require two very different responses.
"...36 people in less than 35 seconds..." Isn't terribly impressive given the circumstances of a crowded shopping mall.
"...shooting back at the cowardly shooter..." Aside from the likelihood of getting shot by equally frightened cops, an untrained CCW type would very likely endanger bystanders and panicked civilians
"...three to four competitions a month..." That is playing shooting games. It is not practice or training for anything but the shooting games.
"...stopping power..." There's no such thing.
"...propane tank bombs..." Explosives in a propane tank or pressure cooker maybe. However, a full propane tank doesn't and will not explode. Nice big ball of fire, but no frag. Poke a hole in an LPG tank gets you get a nice, gentle, white cloud spreading over the ground(propane being heavier than air) but nothing else without a spark.
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Old August 6, 2019, 12:35 PM   #28
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5whiskey
There is a mass shooter taking innocent lives, you’ve heard several shots fired and the shooting continues. You have a firearm, and could possibly save lives by acting quickly. You could also be shot first. You are not obligated to do anything, legally, but as a decent human being with an ounce of bravery do you at least try!?
That's not a yes or no question, although I believe you are trying to shame everyone into responding "Of course I would try" to avoid being labeled as not being a decent human being.

What's your definition of being a decent human being? Suppose you have a wife and family. Maybe they are there with you, maybe they aren't. Doesn't matter. Shouldn't a "decent human being" do everything within his or her ability to take care of spouse and family? Maybe you're the primary (or only) breadwinner in your family. What happens to your family if you don your superhero cape, go charging toward the sound of the gunfire, and get yourself killed?

In those states that allow personal carry of a firearm, the carry and the use of that firearm is allowed for use in defending the carrier and in defending innocent third parties. Note: The use of deadly force is allowed, it is not required. The law does not label you "Not a decent human being" if you do the math and decide that today isn't the day you choose to play first responder.

Being a "decent human being" does not require me to act suicidally or recklessly by getting into a shootout with an opponent who is better armed than I am.
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Old August 6, 2019, 01:26 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. O'Heir View Post
"...the heinous crimes committed in Texas and Ohio?..." Two very different circumstances that require two very different responses.
"...36 people in less than 35 seconds..." Isn't terribly impressive given the circumstances of a crowded shopping mall.
"...shooting back at the cowardly shooter..." Aside from the likelihood of getting shot by equally frightened cops, an untrained CCW type would very likely endanger bystanders and panicked civilians
"...three to four competitions a month..." That is playing shooting games. It is not practice or training for anything but the shooting games.
"...stopping power..." There's no such thing.
"...propane tank bombs..." Explosives in a propane tank or pressure cooker maybe. However, a full propane tank doesn't and will not explode. Nice big ball of fire, but no frag. Poke a hole in an LPG tank gets you get a nice, gentle, white cloud spreading over the ground(propane being heavier than air) but nothing else without a spark.
I find your lack of faith in propane and propane related products, disturbing.
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Old August 6, 2019, 01:56 PM   #30
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Always a good education on the FL. seems there is no satisfactory answer. Really about too many variables and circumstances...if I found myself close enough, say around 15 yards or closer and I though I was not targeted I would let loose with every thing I had.

But the chances of that are like finding a needle in two haystacks!....If I was that close and saw a muzzle pointed in my direction I would run, duck or dive into the nearest cover or maybe just run like hell. Whether to draw a weapon at that time is also circumstantial, if I was cornered then without a doubt....but maybe by that time it would be risky to take action because the good guys would probably be on the scene.

Again, too many ifs and maybes...better to have an escape plan at all times.

Last edited by Frank Ettin; August 6, 2019 at 02:26 PM. Reason: delete profanity
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Old August 6, 2019, 01:56 PM   #31
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No second thoughts

Could you have stopped it?

Quote:
I wonder how many are contemplating, like I am, whether they could have ended either of the heinous crimes committed in Texas and Ohio?
Probably "NOT" but know that I would have tried with little or no hesitation. I am a Veteran and know how I have reacted in past situations. Some I can't recall entirely. …..

Be Safe !!!
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Old August 6, 2019, 02:11 PM   #32
IDisposable
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The rules for me are simple. In my home, I will defend. In public I will shelter unless or until I can cleanly fire. In church (the main reason I have a gun) I will charge any shooter.
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Old August 6, 2019, 02:37 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by IDisposable View Post
The rules for me are simple. In my home, I will defend. In public I will shelter unless or until I can cleanly fire. In church (the main reason I have a gun) I will charge any shooter.
I like your attitude. Unfortunately, our parish has declared itself a gun-free zone. It's not a crime in the state of Alabama to carry in church, but I would have to leave, if I were discovered.

D
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Old August 6, 2019, 03:16 PM   #34
Don Fischer
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I carry 100% of the time. I carry to protect myself, my family and close friend's only. All I've read suggest's that you shoot someone and don't kill them, they could come back and sue you. Kill them and the family sue's you. Even if you win you'll be broke the rest of your life paying off the good lawyer that saved you, probably so he could have your money! If your one of those people going unarmed and your worried bout it, I strongly suggest you get yourself armed. I for one will not interfere on your half so long as the shooter and his family have the right to sue me for doing so, the h*ll with that. You get armed and protect yourself!
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Old August 6, 2019, 03:20 PM   #35
Don Fischer
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I like your attitude. Unfortunately, our parish has declared itself a gun-free zone. It's not a crime in the state of Alabama to carry in church, but I would have to leave, if I were discovered.

D
You could be asked to leave by your pastor or carried out in a body bag by EMT's. Your choice!
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Old August 6, 2019, 03:29 PM   #36
5whiskey
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That's not a yes or no question, although I believe you are trying to shame everyone into responding "Of course I would try" to avoid being labeled as not being a decent human being.
I was not trying to shame anything other than PC excuses. If self preservation kicks in, you don’t feel it’s your day to play hero, and you head for an exit or shelter taking as many innocents with you as possible? No judgement here. I understand that. Hell thats still heroic. I’m not saying I would brave up and run to gunfire. I’ve been to Iraq twice and Afghanistan once as line infantry. I’ve been a cop over 10 years. I’m not an ace cop or war hero, but I’ve been shot at. I’ve seen the same person react to two very similar situations in radically different ways. Because I’ve seen that, I’m not going to bravado what I would do even if I have responded more or less appropriately under fire in the past. I have kids now, and a lot more going on than I used to.

What I am saying is if you’re at peace taking the risk, and have confidence in your equipment and abilities (probably not an lcp, and probably not if I hadn’t fired a round in the past 3 years) that you stand a fair chance at stopping something like that, are you going to let “I should be a good witness” or “I might get sued by the guys family” stand in your way? That’s the mentality I’m talking about. It’s letting peripheral circumstances and what ifs get in the way of possibly saving lives. If I did respond, did shoot the guy and possibly saved lives, and got sued for it after the fact... I would still be at peace and sleep like a baby at night.


And an important advantage you would likely have in a scenario like this that the shooter doesn’t. You know he’s there, and an idea of what direction he’s in. He has no clue you’re there. I still wouldn’t run around with a .32 seecamp trying to play hero against someone with a rifle. But if you have a G19 and know you’re quite proficient to 50 yards... that’s radically different. Wait, and someone will comment that shooting at a mass shooter at that distance will get you charged criminally comes along in 3, 2, 1 (news flash it won’t)
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Old August 6, 2019, 04:41 PM   #37
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walmart

how do you walk into a walmart with a ak47 and not be seen
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Old August 6, 2019, 04:46 PM   #38
IDisposable
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Originally Posted by DaveBj View Post
Unfortunately, our parish has declared itself a gun-free zone.
Ironically, I have been gun free for about 15 years until I was asked to join the church security detail earlier this year. I ended up selecting a Kahr S9 for a nice discreet arm and have been carrying since. Took some good training, got my city issued CCW license (not required in MO) and then got my security license.

I grew up with lots of guns, but after the kids showed up I had sold them off (better uses for the cash and all).

I also have been strongly considering some insurance... not to open a can of worms, but any opinions on USCCA or competitors?
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Old August 6, 2019, 04:48 PM   #39
IDisposable
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Originally Posted by wilford View Post
how do you walk into a walmart with a ak47 and not be seen
It was cloaked with an SEP. https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/..._Problem_field
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Old August 6, 2019, 04:50 PM   #40
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My gun is for the protection of me, my family, and my employees at work. Two of the three I have a positive moral duty to protect. Could I have stopped a mass shooting? If I was in a position I could not retreat from and was under direct or near direct threat I would have tried. I would not try if it was hopeless. Could I have been successful? It’s possible. Is it likely given a competent, determined, and well equipped opponent seemingly willing to die? Probably not. I would assume he was as competent as I am or more. Maybe I am more determined and as willing to accept mortality but these shooters had a massive leg up on equipment.
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Old August 6, 2019, 05:52 PM   #41
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I had a pop quiz last year and ended up clearing my house solo. I found out that I am worse at this than even I expected.

Most of the witness accounts of these stories begin with "I heard a sound like fireworks" or similar. The fog of war is a real thing. Admitting that you have limits isn't an admission of will or resolve.

If I were with my family and I heard shots ring out, it might be police. I don't know and I'm not going looking. I'm going to secure my family and find an exit. If while exiting I encounter a character who looks out of place (or perfectly in place as a mass shooter), say a man walking around the yogurt aisle of a grocery store with a bomb-laced vest and a smoking AK47, I might have to engage him to improve the odds of my family escaping.
If I were solo, and I met said rifle-bearing person while exiting, I might engage as well. I would certainly hope to meet them with their back turned and while they were tying their shoe laces.

Engaging a man carrying a rifle at extended distances using a pistol isn't a well-baked plan. Sometimes it's all you have, but the situation would dictate. The basic lay of the land in any of these scenarios is that the attacker has chosen the time and place to put himself or herself at the tactical advantage. There might be more than one aggressor; people might be so bunched up that the victims can't move; he/she/they might have locked the exits; they might be wearing armor. There's no telling, but be sure you don't know everything.
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Old August 6, 2019, 06:41 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5whiskey
But if you have a G19 and know you’re quite proficient to 50 yards... that’s radically different. Wait, and someone will comment that shooting at a mass shooter at that distance will get you charged criminally comes along in 3, 2, 1 (news flash it won’t)
50 yards for a handgun shot under stress, at a target that's probably moving, in a crowded location, isn't just difficult -- it's idiotic. As to taking that shot and not getting charged ... I doubt that you can guarantee that someone wouldn't be charged even in the jurisdiction you serve as a police officer. You certainly can't guarantee that they wouldn't be charged in any jurisdiction in the country.

Especially if the shot missed, and hit an innocent party.
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Old August 6, 2019, 06:43 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IDisposable
I also have been strongly considering some insurance... not to open a can of worms, but any opinions on USCCA or competitors?
Off topic in this thread. Please start your own thread if you wish to discuss carry insurance.

Not in Tactics and Training.
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Old August 6, 2019, 09:32 PM   #44
yorec
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Off duty law enforcement officers have become involved in such events in the past. (Trolley Square) So considering whether I could have stopped it or not? Of course I consider it...

Way too many variables to factor them all in, but I know I’ll try to stop it.

One thing I’ve considered which is different from the standard way of thinking is not drawing until I actually see a target. (Bad guy actually firing on innocents) this would keep me from being confused with bad guys since my firearm is still concealed and maybe not make me a priority to such bad guy in the event he spots me before I spot him.

But this also puts me behind in an action beats reaction sort of way...

But yup, I’ll be doing something and realize I may not get home that night or ever again. That’s just the nature of that beast.
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Old August 6, 2019, 09:51 PM   #45
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Quote:
"...the heinous crimes committed in Texas and Ohio?..." Two very different circumstances that require two very different responses.
"...36 people in less than 35 seconds..." Isn't terribly impressive given the circumstances of a crowded shopping mall.
Neither the Texas shooting or Ohio shooting was in a shopping mall.

El Paso was inside a Walmart.

Ohio was out on the street.
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Old August 7, 2019, 09:03 AM   #46
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Old August 7, 2019, 09:14 AM   #47
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I was not trying to shame anything other than PC excuses. If self preservation kicks in, you don’t feel it’s your day to play hero, and you head for an exit or shelter taking as many innocents with you as possible? No judgement here. I understand that. Hell thats still heroic. I’m not saying I would brave up and run to gunfire. I’ve been to Iraq twice and Afghanistan once as line infantry. I’ve been a cop over 10 years. I’m not an ace cop or war hero, but I’ve been shot at. I’ve seen the same person react to two very similar situations in radically different ways. Because I’ve seen that, I’m not going to bravado what I would do even if I have responded more or less appropriately under fire in the past. I have kids now, and a lot more going on than I used to.

What I am saying is if you’re at peace taking the risk, and have confidence in your equipment and abilities (probably not an lcp, and probably not if I hadn’t fired a round in the past 3 years) that you stand a fair chance at stopping something like that, are you going to let “I should be a good witness” or “I might get sued by the guys family” stand in your way? That’s the mentality I’m talking about. It’s letting peripheral circumstances and what ifs get in the way of possibly saving lives. If I did respond, did shoot the guy and possibly saved lives, and got sued for it after the fact... I would still be at peace and sleep like a baby at night.


And an important advantage you would likely have in a scenario like this that the shooter doesn’t. You know he’s there, and an idea of what direction he’s in. He has no clue you’re there. I still wouldn’t run around with a .32 seecamp trying to play hero against someone with a rifle. But if you have a G19 and know you’re quite proficient to 50 yards... that’s radically different. Wait, and someone will comment that shooting at a mass shooter at that distance will get you charged criminally comes along in 3, 2, 1 (news flash it won’t)
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Was your fear stood out and it read like false bravado trying to convince yourself of something.
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Old August 7, 2019, 09:39 AM   #48
Don Fischer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. O'Heir View Post
"...the heinous crimes committed in Texas and Ohio?..." Two very different circumstances that require two very different responses.
"...36 people in less than 35 seconds..." Isn't terribly impressive given the circumstances of a crowded shopping mall.
"...shooting back at the cowardly shooter..." Aside from the likelihood of getting shot by equally frightened cops, an untrained CCW type would very likely endanger bystanders and panicked civilians
"...three to four competitions a month..." That is playing shooting games. It is not practice or training for anything but the shooting games.
"...stopping power..." There's no such thing.
"...propane tank bombs..." Explosives in a propane tank or pressure cooker maybe. However, a full propane tank doesn't and will not explode. Nice big ball of fire, but no frag. Poke a hole in an LPG tank gets you get a nice, gentle, white cloud spreading over the ground(propane being heavier than air) but nothing else without a spark.
Super post!
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Old August 7, 2019, 10:07 AM   #49
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Quote:
Some goober with an Unkle Mike's holster and a LCP .380 is going to go up against an AK or AR pistol armed dude wearing body armor. Ok. unless the BG is RIGHT THERE thats a bad idea.
If the bad guy is RIGHT THERE, I hope Goober takes the shot. And if more people carried (not everybody, that's stupid) there's a better chance that one of them will be RIGHT THERE.
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Old August 7, 2019, 10:45 AM   #50
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The columbine bombs were, iirc, incapable of exploding off of the timer/detonator that they had put in place. A tank full of propane contains no oxygen and hence cannot blow up. the only thing that it can do is to be released into an oxygen rich environment. If a valve is popped or a hole punched in it and the gas catches fire, there will be nothing but a large torch, depending on how much LP is escaping. Propane will only explode when it is gasified and held in an oxygen rich environment at a concentration that is high enough to sustain combustion.The other way of doing it would be to set the thing to burst somehow, flood the area with propane gas, and have a timed spark emitter. Set it up with a bunch of lighted candles concealed somewhere and an electronic device that will open the valve? I can think of several ways to do so.

IIRC, only one explosive device actually worked, probably because they were stupid. They duct taped nails to the outside of the tanks, right? There won't be an explosion that could turn those nails into flying shrapnel.

Sometimes people engage in 'magical thinking.' This refers to thoughts and actions that really aren't realistic, unproven, so forth. "propane explodes, tanks can explode, if we wire a timer to a tank and wrap it with nails, something will happen and it's going to kill everyone in the cafeteria."

In fact, it appears to be impossible or at least nearly impossible to even create an explosion with a tank and a low energy source Tracer bullets from 'normal' calibers blow out. There isn't a fuel air mix that can support the combustion of the gas until the tracer and its heat are gone.. LP is cold, wet, and prone to creating quite a wind. It isn't that simple to pop it off.

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before anyone refers to the USAF fuel/air bombs, remember that they include air. Until that fuel reaches the proper mixture it can't ignite. There are two ways that i know of that this is addressed. First, those bombs carry a large bursting charge that sprays LP in a wide sphere, and gives it a few seconds or so to mix with the atmosphere before it is triggered by a hot, large explosive device. Another way is to add an oxydizer directly to the fuel as it is dispersed, so that the explosive isn't entirely dependent on atmosphere.
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