Joseph Manton pin fire

mowin · September 23, 2013, 01:22 PM

pin fire.jpg

pinfire4.jpg

pinfire2.jpg

Trying to get more info for a friend who's looking to sell off some guns.
It is stamped Joseph Manton 6 Hollies street Cavendish London on the rib between the barrels. These are the only pics I have.

**Mike Irwin** · September 23, 2013, 01:47 PM

Manton died in 1835, just at the dawn of the pinfire era. I don't know how long his shop continued after his death, if it did.

Jim Watson · September 23, 2013, 02:17 PM

That Manton pinfire ought to be worth a good bit of money if he can get it in front of the right people. A big league auction house might to well by him.

I looked around and could find no report of Joseph Manton's operations continuing after his death. One site says he died broke, money spent in litigation, often against his brother John.
It looks like John's side of the family kept his business going for another generation or two.

The name has been used.
There is a new startup, Joseph Manton, London setting out to commemorate the name with shotguns in the $80,000 range. But not really connected by family or business.

In 1994, I extravagantly admired a Manton branded double rifle in, of all things, .32-40 Winchester. Not $6000 extravagant, but a neat little gun.
As best I could tell, it was a German barreled action stocked up in England.

mowin · September 23, 2013, 03:07 PM

I know pin fires didn't last too long and were not really excepted well. Most thought they were too dangerous with the cap/primer and powder all in one case. It is a neat double, and I will get better pics next time im there.

AaronN322 · September 24, 2013, 03:34 AM

Quote:

I know pin fires didn't last too long and were not really excepted well. Most thought they were too dangerous with the cap/primer and powder all in one case. It is a neat double, and I will get better pics next time im there.

Pinfires were around a lot longer than you think. The shotshells began being made in the 1830s, and I just today picked up a box of pinfire shotshells made in 1952 (This is about the absolute latest they were made (other than by small companies making shells for old, obsolete guns.))

Also, the big draw to pinfires is that they were immensely more safe than carrying around loose black powder and having to pour it the barrel, etc. It also made it a lot easier. So the safety of them, and ease of use is what quickly drove their popularity to be the most popular system in Europe for a long time, and adopted at one time or another by nearly every major military in the world, in every habitable continent.

**Mike Irwin** · September 24, 2013, 07:33 AM

Pinfire was well accepted in Europe, especially for handguns and shotguns.

Not so much so in America or England, but they did have a following. Pinfire revolvers were even used in the US Civil War.

The problem with a lot of the good British makers is that their markes were either faked, or closely copied with a few differences) in an effort to fool consumers.

I don't know if that's the case here or not.

The gun would have to be examined by an expert.

mowin · September 24, 2013, 07:37 AM

I have read somewhere that pin fires were not excepted at first because of everything was in one case...Don't remember where I read it, as I've been intrigued by this old gun and read lots of stuff in the last day or so. Some maybe not so accurate, so any info you have is very helpful.

**Mike Irwin** · September 24, 2013, 08:08 AM

Any new technology has an acceptance curve. It takes awhile to get people used to the idea that what they've been doing their entire lives is now new and improved by something else.

It took the better part of 20 to 30 years for smokless powders to be fully accepted in the United States.

Ammo companies were still loading black powder in rounds like the .38 Special, .44 Special, and .45 Colt (and many more) until World War I because people wanted that propellant, even though all of them were available loaded with black powder substitute smokeless powders.

James K · September 24, 2013, 11:26 AM

Basically, the pinfire in Europe filled the same need in about the same time frame as the rimfire in the U.S. While pinfire guns were made and used in England, rapid centerfire developments there kept them from being as popular as on the continent.

Shooters, both in the US and Britain, claimed that the pinfire was unsafe, since a round could be dropped and land on its pin, but that apparently didn't much bother people in other countries. The claim, though, was correct. I was at a gun show where someone dropped a pinfire blank. Yes, it went off and there was a loud silence for a few minutes.

I would like to see better pictures, but that gun has the look of a mature development, not some kind of early experiment. I can't find any reference to Manton making anything in pinfire, but that does not mean he didn't.

Jim

mapsjanhere · September 24, 2013, 12:30 PM

My suggestion would be to look for Belgian proof marks (elg in oval, candlestick, star with letter above). Oddly enough, even when they faked a foreign maker they still went through the Belgian proof system.

mowin · September 24, 2013, 04:48 PM

I will take some more pics next time i'm over to her house. I will take the fore arm off and take pics of the barrels also.

James K · September 25, 2013, 09:06 PM

Please photgraph the rib markings also. FWIW, I can't find there was any Hollies Street (spelled that way) in London; there are a slew of byways named Cavendish, but not a district, as that seems to be.

Jim

mowin · July 18, 2016, 07:25 PM

Bringing this thread back to life.

I was finally able to purchase the Joseph Manton shotgun.

So the pics requested are here.. little late, but here they are.

I hope you guys can shed some light on this gun.

mowin · July 18, 2016, 07:27 PM

Ok.... the pics didn't upload

mowin · July 18, 2016, 07:56 PM

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...psfo8q69lv.jpg

mowin · July 18, 2016, 08:01 PM

http://i100.photobucket.com/

Ok, as you can tell, I'm NOT computer savvy. Lol

mapsjanhere · July 18, 2016, 11:53 PM

Ok you have proof marks that say Birmingham 1856 - 1904 according to Wirnsberger. That fits smack in the right area for pin fire, but is well past the famous Manton's time.

mowin · July 19, 2016, 06:56 AM

That's the info I'm looking for. Thank you so much.

Fortunately I didn't pay much for it. Got it for $100.00

**Mike Irwin** · July 21, 2016, 01:38 PM

OK...

I think I may have found some information on why Joseph Manton's name is on a gun 25 years after he died...

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/...89&type=thread

Looks like Joseph Manton company continued on in India, and in the late 1840s bought Samuel Nock's shop in London to get back into the British market proper.

mowin · July 21, 2016, 06:47 PM

That's very interesting. I'll probably keep it in the safe, and awe the less informed when I show it to them. Lol.

September 23, 2013, 01:22 PM	#1
mowin Member Join Date: September 23, 2013 Posts: 21	Joseph Manton pin fire pin fire.jpg pinfire4.jpg pinfire2.jpg Trying to get more info for a friend who's looking to sell off some guns. It is stamped Joseph Manton 6 Hollies street Cavendish London on the rib between the barrels. These are the only pics I have.

September 23, 2013, 01:47 PM	#2
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Manton died in 1835, just at the dawn of the pinfire era. I don't know how long his shop continued after his death, if it did. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

September 24, 2013, 07:33 AM	#6
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Pinfire was well accepted in Europe, especially for handguns and shotguns. Not so much so in America or England, but they did have a following. Pinfire revolvers were even used in the US Civil War. The problem with a lot of the good British makers is that their markes were either faked, or closely copied with a few differences) in an effort to fool consumers. I don't know if that's the case here or not. The gun would have to be examined by an expert. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

September 24, 2013, 08:08 AM	#8
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Any new technology has an acceptance curve. It takes awhile to get people used to the idea that what they've been doing their entire lives is now new and improved by something else. It took the better part of 20 to 30 years for smokless powders to be fully accepted in the United States. Ammo companies were still loading black powder in rounds like the .38 Special, .44 Special, and .45 Colt (and many more) until World War I because people wanted that propellant, even though all of them were available loaded with black powder substitute smokeless powders. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

September 24, 2013, 12:30 PM	#10
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	My suggestion would be to look for Belgian proof marks (elg in oval, candlestick, star with letter above). Oddly enough, even when they faked a foreign maker they still went through the Belgian proof system. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

September 23, 2013, 02:17 PM	#3
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,546	That Manton pinfire ought to be worth a good bit of money if he can get it in front of the right people. A big league auction house might to well by him. I looked around and could find no report of Joseph Manton's operations continuing after his death. One site says he died broke, money spent in litigation, often against his brother John. It looks like John's side of the family kept his business going for another generation or two. The name has been used. There is a new startup, Joseph Manton, London setting out to commemorate the name with shotguns in the $80,000 range. But not really connected by family or business. In 1994, I extravagantly admired a Manton branded double rifle in, of all things, .32-40 Winchester. Not $6000 extravagant, but a neat little gun. As best I could tell, it was a German barreled action stocked up in England.

September 23, 2013, 03:07 PM	#4
mowin Member Join Date: September 23, 2013 Posts: 21	I know pin fires didn't last too long and were not really excepted well. Most thought they were too dangerous with the cap/primer and powder all in one case. It is a neat double, and I will get better pics next time im there.

September 24, 2013, 07:37 AM	#7
mowin Member Join Date: September 23, 2013 Posts: 21	I have read somewhere that pin fires were not excepted at first because of everything was in one case...Don't remember where I read it, as I've been intrigued by this old gun and read lots of stuff in the last day or so. Some maybe not so accurate, so any info you have is very helpful.

September 24, 2013, 11:26 AM	#9
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Basically, the pinfire in Europe filled the same need in about the same time frame as the rimfire in the U.S. While pinfire guns were made and used in England, rapid centerfire developments there kept them from being as popular as on the continent. Shooters, both in the US and Britain, claimed that the pinfire was unsafe, since a round could be dropped and land on its pin, but that apparently didn't much bother people in other countries. The claim, though, was correct. I was at a gun show where someone dropped a pinfire blank. Yes, it went off and there was a loud silence for a few minutes. I would like to see better pictures, but that gun has the look of a mature development, not some kind of early experiment. I can't find any reference to Manton making anything in pinfire, but that does not mean he didn't. Jim

September 24, 2013, 04:48 PM	#11
mowin Member Join Date: September 23, 2013 Posts: 21	I will take some more pics next time i'm over to her house. I will take the fore arm off and take pics of the barrels also.

September 25, 2013, 09:06 PM	#12
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Please photgraph the rib markings also. FWIW, I can't find there was any Hollies Street (spelled that way) in London; there are a slew of byways named Cavendish, but not a district, as that seems to be. Jim

July 18, 2016, 07:25 PM	#13
mowin Member Join Date: September 23, 2013 Posts: 21	Bringing this thread back to life. I was finally able to purchase the Joseph Manton shotgun. So the pics requested are here.. little late, but here they are. I hope you guys can shed some light on this gun.

July 18, 2016, 07:27 PM	#14
mowin Member Join Date: September 23, 2013 Posts: 21	Ok.... the pics didn't upload

July 18, 2016, 07:56 PM	#15
mowin Member Join Date: September 23, 2013 Posts: 21	http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...psfo8q69lv.jpg

July 18, 2016, 08:01 PM	#16
mowin Member Join Date: September 23, 2013 Posts: 21	http://i100.photobucket.com/ Ok, as you can tell, I'm NOT computer savvy. Lol Last edited by mowin; July 18, 2016 at 08:06 PM.

July 18, 2016, 11:53 PM	#17
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	Ok you have proof marks that say Birmingham 1856 - 1904 according to Wirnsberger. That fits smack in the right area for pin fire, but is well past the famous Manton's time. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

July 19, 2016, 06:56 AM	#18
mowin Member Join Date: September 23, 2013 Posts: 21	That's the info I'm looking for. Thank you so much. Fortunately I didn't pay much for it. Got it for $100.00

July 21, 2016, 01:38 PM	#19
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	OK... I think I may have found some information on why Joseph Manton's name is on a gun 25 years after he died... http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/...89&type=thread Looks like Joseph Manton company continued on in India, and in the late 1840s bought Samuel Nock's shop in London to get back into the British market proper. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

July 21, 2016, 06:47 PM	#20
mowin Member Join Date: September 23, 2013 Posts: 21	That's very interesting. I'll probably keep it in the safe, and awe the less informed when I show it to them. Lol.