Extra Soft .45s

[uncle.45]

Hi, Guys!
My wife shoots a Ruger Mark III that I built for her,(2.0 lb. trigger) and is spoiled by nearly recoilless shooting. She's very good with it!
Every now and then I get her to shoot my 1911, and she likes it except for the recoil.
I currently load 185g RNFP on top of 5.2g of Hodgdon HP38, and they aren't very much more than a bunny fart, but she still wants less recoil.
Hodgdon's manual gives a starting load of 5.0g.
Do any of you have first-hand experience running loads that light? Will it cycle my 5" 1911 properly?
I would like for her to enjoy the 1911, but I won't sacrifice reliability for it.
Even plinking at the range I insist on 100%.
Any input would be appreciated.

[T. O'Heir]

Your .45 fit her hand? That will affect felt recoil more than anything. A lot boils down to if she doesn't like it, don't force it on her.
However, there are 155 grain cast loads on Handloads.com. Mind you, they're faster than your HP38 load.

[OzeanJaeger]

Not that I'm trying to get you to buy another pistol...

But, have you thought about a full-sized (or 80% anyway) Government style in 9mm or even .380?

Beretta 82, Star M-S, Browning HP35, Browning 1911-380, Colt Mustang, etc.

There are quite a few big, steel frame auto pistols that shoot 9mm and .380 that are very low recoil and very soft shooters. I think that's a better option than trying to underload a .45ACP. That can cause problems, especially in a less experienced shooter. It is possible for a squib round to cycle and go back into battery.

[mikejonestkd]

Please consider dropping a 9 or 10 lb recoil spring in your 1911 and shooting powder puff loads, that should make it more comfortable for your wife. And, in a minute you can swap back to a 16lb spring and shoot full power loads.

I have had very good results with 3.7 gr of bullseye and 185 gr SWC bullets, and with 4.0 gr win 231/ HP38 and the same 185 gr SWC bullet

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

What he said^

[uncle.45]

I've had my eye on a 12 lb. recoil spring.
I think I will give that minimum load a whirl as soon as it comes to the mailbox.
If I don't like it, I will tell her to stick with her .22.
At 5 cents a round, it is easier on my wallet if she shoots .22s anyway.
Thanks guys!

[DukeConnor]

Wolf sells "Recoil calibration packs" for around 30 bucks.

https://www.gunsprings.com/COLT/1911.../mID1/dID1#799

[Unclenick]

Uncle.45,

That load is heavier than a lot of target loads. I used to shoot 3.8 grains of Bullseye, the equivalent of about 4.0 grains of HP38, behind that bullet weight for gallery loads (50 foot indoor targets) in my Goldcup. I did use a 10 or 12 lb springs most of the time back then, IIRC.

For felt recoil there are several things you can do. One is install a square bottom firing pin stop. I have not used one with light match loads, but I have used it with 200 grain match bullets over about 4.5 grains of your powder with, IIRC, a 14 lb spring. EGW's square bottom stops at that link require some hand fitting (the drop-in stop they make is not square bottom; check with them on whether or not they make one that is). The radiused bottom edge was introduced with the A1 to make cycling the slide easier for soldiers who complained about it, but the square bottom was Browning's original design. What it does to recoil is not obvious. Much of perceived recoil in the 1911 occurs when the slide stops against the frame via the recoil spring guide, which is a sharp and sudden transfer of slide momentum to the hand that torques the muzzle up in an arc. The square bottom guide causes the hammer to be cocked from a point closer to the hammer pin, reducing mechanical advantage and making that cocking (and manual slide cycling) harder to do. That, in turn, delays the start of the slide's recoil, delaying it a little and reducing its momentum, so the gun recoils straighter back into the hand and the muzzle jump is reduced. The first time one of my fellow Gunsite attendees was next to me on a firing line with that stop in place, he commented that my muzzle was almost not moving up at all. It feels like firing a gun with a lower barrel line does. This causes the perception of total recoil to be reduced.

You can also put in buffers, but I've never personally felt they did much, and certainly not as much as the square bottom firing pin stop does. I've never tried the two together, though, and that might be and advantage.

[uncle.45]

Thanks Unclenick!
I was looking for someone with firsthand experience with very light loads.
I also just ordered the Wolff spring pack that has springs as low as 9 pounds.
Since the 1911 runs (barely) at that load I think for every 1/10th gn I reduce the powder load from 5.2 I will reduce the recoil spring by 1 pound.
Thus a load of 4.6 gr should in on a 9 to 10 pound spring.
Does that seem about right?

[mikejonestkd]

Thus a load of 4.6 gr should in on a 9 to 10 pound spring.

I use 4.0 gr of win 231/ HP231 and a 185gr swc with a 9lb spring.

[DukeConnor]

4 grains of w231 under a 185 lswc for me also. My smith 1911 cycles fine with factory springs.

[uncle.45]

Thanks Mike and Duke!
That's good info.
I'll work up a load in anticipation of the springs arriving in a few days.

[reddog81]

Have you loaded down to the point where cycling becomes erratic? You might as well figure out how low you can go with the current setup. I can run all my 1911's with 4.2 grains of Bullseye and a 200 grain SWC. I tried 4.0 with my Kimber TLE and Colt GCNM last time at the range and they worked OK. I figured there might be some hickups going that low in those guns because they seem to have higher powdered recoil and mainsprings than others I've got but now I've got to go even lower to try and find the floor.

[Mike38]

I use 185gr LSWCHP by Precision Delta, 3.2gr of Titegroup, and a 12 pound recoil spring for light target loads in my 1911.

[uncle.45]

Thank you for the input guys!
This is the info I needed.
I am going to the range this afternoon.
I'm in 'my room' now to load some at 4.0g to see if it runs with a 16lb. spring.
If not, I will use the calibration pack and work my way down to a spring that will let it run.
Thanks again everyone!
I have no experience with such low loads. Knowing that I can go that much lower is a big help.
I'll give an update after the range late today.

[Unclenick]

That's the way to do it. You want the stiffest spring that still works with your load. The 1911 slide doesn't have to go 100% into counterbattery to successfully strip and feed the next round if the spring is strong enough. This is why there is room for buffers and pads that stop it short of full counterbattery. If you pick the right spring and load combination, you will find one that doesn't quite let the slide go all the way back so it never smacks into the frame. This changes it over from sharp recoil to spongy soft recoil. The only drawback is that the spring choice that works for you may not work for another person, as it is affected by solidly behind the gun you are. It could work for you, but if your wife's wrist isn't as strong and she doesn't have as much mass behind it, it may not function the gun properly for her, and she may need a weaker spring.

[uncle.45]

At least I have a starting point now.
My 1911 will not run at all on a 16 lb. spring with a 4gr load.
I cycled it manually after each shot so my wife could shoot it, though, and she fell in love with it.
When the calibration pack gets here I will try one magazine with a 14lb. spring, and if needed try a 12lb. spring, etc. til it runs reliably.
Then it will be ' good to go'.

[Nick_C_S]

I'm a little late to the party here. But I've worked up - or should I say down a few light 1911 loads. All with 200gn LSWC's.

You mention you won't sacrifice reliability. The following loads are reliable with a 12lb recoil spring. They may work with a little more spring; but definitely won't operate with a standard 16 pounder.

Again, all with 200gn LSWC's. I use Missouri Bullet's soft cast: http://missouribullet.com/details.ph...y=13&keywords=.

3.4gn Bullseye - 659 f/s. Doesn't run clean.

3.0gn Nitro-100 - 704 f/s. Runs clean.
2.4gn Nitro-100 - 591 f/s. Doesn't run clean.

3.2gn Vihtavuori N-310 - 648 f/s. Runs clean.
2.8gn Vihtavuori N-310 - 586 f/s. Doesn't run as clean.

All of these are soft running. And all of these are tac-driver accurate.

[uncle.45]

Thanks Nick!
I'll save those for possible future use, but right now I'm going to finalize a light target load with the 8lb. jug of HP38 I have on hand,
then load/shoot, load/shoot, load/shoot,etc!

[gwpercle]

The downside to semi-auto's is a certain amount of power must be generated to make it cycle. A revolver is not hampered by this.
You may want to invest in a wheel gun for target shooting. I was amazed how much less the recoil felt in a 45 acp revolver than my 1911, the slide, forced back and slamming forward , generates what feels like recoil. In the revolver that is not present and with any light load that the bullet will exit the barrel will work just fine.
Give revolvers a try for the recoil sensitive ....my wife agrees.
Gary

[uncle.45]

Hi Gary!
I am a big time revolver fan!
I mostly shoot a 625JM, and LOVE it!

[Nick_C_S]

a light target load with the 8lb. jug of HP38 I have on hand

I guess I should have mentioned my experience with HP-38 (or W231 - same stuff) . . .

Prior to working on super light 45 ACP loads, I worked on super light 38 Special loads. In the course of doing so, I learned that the famously clean burning W231 starts to leave behind a lot of residue and unspent (or partially spent - whatever the case may be) propellant flakes. It seems to suddenly hit a point where it doesn't work so well.

And believe me, you'd be hard pressed to find a bigger fan of HP-38/W231 than me. I happily possess over 10#'s of the stuff. But in 38 Special, I was underwhelmed at its performance with powder-puff loads. Knowing that, I didn't even bother trying it with 45 ACP.

But of course, if you have tons of HP-38 on hand, then I can certainly understand wanting to use it.

[BillM]

A 1911 can be loaded W-A-Y down and still function. I went below 3 gr of Titegroup
with a 230 gr Bear Creek Moly bullet. Recoil spring IIRC was 6 lb. Darned thing functioned fine, recoil was near zero.

[uncle.45]

Nick,
I was also experiencing real 'dirty' performance with 5.2gr of HP38, but when I reduced the load to 4.0gr it ran way cleaner.
I feared it might be worse, but got a pleasant surprise.
I currently have 8lbs. of HP38, about 1300 185gr RNFP bullets, and 2000 good cases.
For now, I am going to find the spring this load runs OK on,
and go,go,go.

[kmw1954]

uncle.45, not sure how this will fit in but here is an experience I just had this past week.

I have been curious about obtaining a 45acp or 40cal/10mm for myself but have never really shot one. So this week I was able to get together with a friend from another forum to shoot and he brought along 2 45's. One was a 1911 model with a 5" barrel and the other was a EAA Witness Compact 45. The Witness was a metal frame model and not a poly frame.

I was able to shoot them back to back so as to compare them and shot the same ammo from both. I was astonished by the lack of felt recoil from the Witness. I am very much impressed.

Now I will also state that I own a Witness Pavona in 380acp and it is exactly the same size as this 45acp. This 45 version even displayed less felt recoil to me than my blowback model 380. I'm pretty sure I will now be buying one of the Witness 45's.

BTW, I'm also a big fan of HP-38 but I've found it doesn't work very well in the 380 with a 100gr plated bullet.