.454 casull crimp issues

[AL45]

I've been reloading various calibers for about 15 years. I've loaded tons of .45 colt including Ruger only .45 colt loads with no problems. Recently I've started loading .454 Casull and am having a terrible time crimping them. I'm using starline brass and Cast Performance cast lead bullets with a gas check. I'm using RCBS .454 Casull dies and a Redding Profile crimp die. Whether I use the Redding die to crimp or the RCBS die to crimp, I'm either having the bullets jump crimp, or when adjusting in 1/8 turns, I go quickly from very little crimp to buckling the case. And it never looks like the crimp I see on all the youtube videos. The only thing I can think of is I'm not seating the bullet correctly. I've tried seating to the middle of the cannelure and to the upper part of the cannelure, but the same results occur. Is it possible I could be flaring the case mouth too much? The gas check slides partly in but not to far. Any ideas? Thanks

[mehavey]

Sounds like you are simultaneously seating/crimping?

If so, adjust die to seat to nearer bottom of groove before starting the crimp.
That gives room for the case mouth to roll-over while the bullet continues to move down into it.

[AL45]

Mehavey, I agree it sounds like that, but what I am doing is seating the bullet to where the die body is backed off and won't crimp, then I back off the bullet seating stem and adjust the die down (using the instructions that came with the die) to crimp it. The other method I am using is seating the bullet where it doesn't crimp and then switching to the Redding Profile crimp die. Neither method is working. I actually seemed to have better luck using my Lee .45 colt dies to load the .454 casull. But everything I read said to use actual .454 dies because it would hold the bullet tighter.

[cdoc42]

I wonder if the problem is the case itself. I have no problem with Starline in .44 MAg and 9mm Luger, but I've never used any cases other than Freedom Arms in .454 Casull.
Lyman manual 5th Ed. recommends Casull cases and mentions they are "longer (obviously) and thicker" than .45 Colt. Is it possible Starline brass is too thin at the mouth?

How about the length of the cases? Minimum is 1.380" and max is 1.385." Lyman pictures a case measuring 1.383" while Hodgdon pictures it as 1.381."

Although the bullet diameter should not matter in this situation, Lyman suggests cast linotype sized to .451" as larger bullets won't chamber due to tight tolerances (I assume in Freedom Arms).

[AL45]

cdoc42, I measured all the cases and they range from 1.377 to 1.38. I'm thinking I may be expanding the case mouth too much. I just resized all of them and will try less mouth flare. When I try to get a good roll crimp, I have had some get a bad bulge where the bottom of the bullet is seated in the case. One would think I am seating and crimping at the same time with the RCBS seating/crimp die, but I am defintely not. I have the bullet seating stem backed a long ways out before crimping. The redding profile crimp die starts crimping but then seems to "bottom out". I can screw it all the way in and it reaches a point where it does nothing.

[mkl]

I had the same problem of bullets backing out of a custom 5-shot hand cannon made by Bowen Arms. A Lee factory crimp die solved the issue.

[Nathan]

A Redding profile crimp is better, IME, than a roll crimp. Try that die. Also, measure the ID of your case neck before seating. You will need gage pins or a neck thickness mic and outside mic to be accurate enough. Possibly there is not enough neck tension. I would think you would want 0.003” or more on a revolver.

[44 AMP]

Does factory ammo experience crimp jump in your gun??

[AL45]

Nathan, I'm using a Redding Profile crimp. 44 Amp, I haven't shot any factory loads. I have fired about 50 rounds of reloads. Not all have jumped crimp. The problem is regardless of whether I use the RCBS seat/crimp die or the Redding die, it only crimps a little before I start seeing casebuckling where the bottom of the bullet is seated in the case. My .45 colt dies are Lee dies and I have never had any problems with them even when loading 350 grain Ruger only loads. Everything I have read says .454 Casull RCBS and Redding profile crimp die is the way to go when loading .454 Casull. I'm not saying that is wrong, but so far I'm not seeing it. The mechanics of loading .45 Colt and .454 Casull should be the same, so I am puzzled.

[44 AMP]

Now I'm curious about the depth of the crimp groove in the bullet you're using....

case mouth flare amount shouldn't have anything to do with it.

There is a slight difference in the specs between .45 Colt and .454, the Colt case specs .480" and the .454 is .476" at the case mouth. Keep in mind that these are the max specs, brass and dies are always smaller than that.

Uncle Nick has some lovely illustrations showing case bulge when the crimp isn't right. I'm sure he will be along shortly and provide them.

When there isn't enough room for the crimp you are applying (for any reason) the case will bulge and even buckle at some point below the cannelure/crimp groove. Bottle necked brass usually bulges at the shoulder, and can be too much to allow the round to be chambered.

The bullet weight, crimp groove depth, amount of crimp, recoil level of the load and weight of the revolver all play a part.

I'd suggest getting some factory ammo, and see what it does, as a baseline. Also it will allow you compare the factory case thickness against the Starline brass you're using.

THis is the kind of can of worms problem where one change MIGHT solve the issue, or it might take more than that, and identifying which change will isn't simple.

The key is to only make one change, at a time, until the problem goes away.

[Nathan]

Does your profile crimp look like this?

[AL45]

It does on my .357 and Ruger only .45 colt loads using Lee dies. But no where close to that on the .454 loads using either RCBS or Redding profile die.

[AL45]

44 Amp, the bullets are Cast Performance, 335 grain and gas checked. The cannelure is narrow and shallow to me.

[Mike / Tx]

I have for the most part only used Starline brass in my 454's and never had issues. I load for both a Raging Bull 8 3/8" and a FA. I usually run the Lee 452-300 RF or similar in lead and 260gr JHP'S.

My dies are nothing special, just Hornady Custom Grade carbide. I use a decent roll crimp and have no issues in a decade plus.

Could be the groove isn't that deep on those bullets. I've had some that poured a little fat that when sized were a bit thin.

[AL45]

I believe I figured it out. The instructions that came with the Redding profile crimp die said to startwith the die 2-3 turns away from the shell holder. I found this to be way too low. These are generic instructions and not specifically for any one caliber. I backed out the Redding die until there was no resistance and then slowly turned it down until there was a slight resistance. Then I worked in 1/8" increments while moving the ram up and down until I got the crimp I believe I need. The instructions also said to use a little lubricate either inside the die or at the case mouth. I also did that. I guess I will find out the next time at the range. Thanks to everyone for your input.

[44 AMP]

The cannelure is narrow and shallow to me.

This could be your entire problem right there....

Compare the crimp groove on your slugs to the groove on Keith type or even regular Lyman type bullets for the .45 Colt.

Seems to me that if the crimp groove isn't about as wide and as deep as what is used on bullets intended for lesser recoil than the .454, then I thing getting a good and enough crimp to hold heavier slugs against higher recoil would be problematic, if, even possible.

Put another way, if the crimp groove on your 335gr slugs isn't at least as deep as the groove on a 250gr slug for the .45 Colt, how can you expect to hold even heavier slugs in place against even higher recoil???

My thought is that since bullets are jumping crimp, you're trying to increase the amount of crimp, but there isn't anywhere for the brass to go (groove not deep enough) and that results in the cases bulging or buckling.

If I'm right, then your options are, reduce the load (reducing the recoil) until the available amount of crimp holds them in place and live with what ever velocity is the result, or find a different bullet, one with a deeper crimp groove.

I also note that you mention adjusting the die in 1/8 turn increments. I can't say what fraction of a turn I use for my final adjustments, but its a lot less than 1/8 turn. I make very small final adjustments, figuring its better to creep up than to overshoot. But, that's just me.

[jetinteriorguy]

If you can’t get this working with your current equipment, you might contact Titan and request that they get a Collet crimp die custom made for you. I did this on my .41 and the price was pretty reasonable and it didn’t take too terribly long to get it. I have no idea if it would fix the problem in the 454 but might be worth a try. They do list one for .45 Colt and maybe it would work too, I’d give them a call and ask.

[Unclenick]

You can make the 45 Colt Lee Collet-Style Crimp Die work with 454 Casull by placing a 0.114" thick combination of shim washers on the shell holder deck over the case. Not exactly an elegant solution, having to locate the washers for that. Getting one made sounds like a better approach.

[mehavey]

Why not just screw the die down til it engages the case mouth -- the a 1/2-turn more (season to taste)

[Unclenick]

The collet-style crimp dies don't engage the case mouth the way a conventional crimp shoulder does. They pinch it with a raised lip inside the end of the collet. The collet is wider than the case mouth to let the mouth slide into the collet, and it remains wider than the case mouth until the collet starts to close. What closes it is the bottom end of it (which protrudes from the die body) is pushed up by the shell holder deck. This pushes the nose of the collet against a tapered closing surface inside the die body.