Really Dirty Brass

[cdoc42]

Having no chicken or dog in this fight, I have to ask, what was wrong with corn cob or walnut in a vibrating case cleaner for an hour or so? 47 years of doing this have not met with dissatisfaction.

It sounds to me that some entrepreneurial soul developed pins and solutions as an alternative, but I have yet to ascertain any advantage.

[Marco Califo]

Read post #21.
It is removing primer residue from primer pockets.
The FART is also a large platform for all tumbling: wet/dry/with pins.
Also, the citric acid inherent in the process stabilizes the brass surface, so that it will polish up nicely.

[Shadow9mm]

Wet tumblers have a larger capacity. You also dont have to deal with contaminated dust from the dry tumbling media. And the brass cleans a lot better, especially on the inside, when wet tumbling.

[ghbucky]

Also after a bit of reading, 1.5tsp per litre of dawn dish soap is the reccomended dilution, so 10.5tsp for a full fart. Again thst seems like an awful lot.

Sounded like a lot to me, until I threw that into a conversion calculator. That works out to 3.5 tablespoons, or just shy of a 1/4 cup. Doesn't seem a lot to me after that.

[jetinteriorguy]

Originally Posted by cdoc42

Having no chicken or dog in this fight, I have to ask, what was wrong with corn cob or walnut in a vibrating case cleaner for an hour or so? 47 years of doing this have not met with dissatisfaction.

It sounds to me that some entrepreneurial soul developed pins and solutions as an alternative, but I have yet to ascertain any advantage.

The citric acid will chelate any lead residues left from the lead styphanate used in the primers, as opposed to all this going into the air and polishing agent of a vibratory cleaner. In my case using a HF wet tumbler it’s also much quieter to run. I don’t use the pins, too much of a hassle to me and just Dawn and citric work good enough for me. I do tumble in crushed walnut with Nufinish at the end to help keep things shiny though.

[Marco Califo]

as opposed to all this going into the air and polishing agent of a vibratory cleaner.

I want to emphasize the importance of this. Lead contamination of reloaders home/garage/yards is a real risk for dry tumblers. That dry dust tends to be forgotten or ignored, but it is HIGHLY CONTAMINATED with Lead.
There is a Sticky in the Bullet Casting section (I think needs to be in the Reloading section as well):
https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=526424
Dry tumbling appears to be greatest risk of contamination in the homes of reloaders. IMO, the logical approach is to decontaminate ALL INCOMING FIRED BRASS as soon as possible by wet cleaning (including dishwasher detergent or dish-soap and citric acid to chelate lead in the water. I prefer to do this before handling the brass (even before depriming). Then, it must be repeated after depriming, preferably with pins. Only then, is the brass safe for home storage IMO.

[9MMand223only]

Here you go

http://www.natoreloading.com/cleanbrass/

[ghbucky]

Dry tumbling appears to be greatest risk of contamination in the homes of reloaders. IMO, the logical approach is to decontaminate ALL INCOMING FIRED BRASS as soon as possible by wet cleaning (including dishwasher detergent or dish-soap and citric acid to chelate lead in the water. I prefer to do this before handling the brass (even before depriming). Then, it must be repeated after depriming, preferably with pins. Only then, is the brass safe for home storage IMO.

Thanks for raising my awareness on this. I see there was a lot of discussion about this in the linked thread. I think what I took from this thread a few years ago was to wet tumble, which I do now.

But, I have a question: I've seen several references to Citric acid 'chelates' the lead out. I'm not familiar with the term, but wikipedia tells me that some chemical reaction happens, and I take it from inference that the CA and lead bond into a solid that is safe to dispose of down the drain?

Can anyone tell me if Frankfort Arsenal's Quick-n-EZ™ Brass Polish (which they tell me has a citric scent!) can also accomplish this, or do I need to add CA to that?

Also, are we talking about the same CA used in canning, or does it come in some other form that is used in wet tumbling?


Thanks.

[Marco Califo]

Yes, chemical action, "binds" and is then non-or-less-toxic.
Sewer systems can deal with heavy metals. Home septic systems cannot.
F.A. Brass polish almost certainly has citric acid.
F.A. Ultrasonic Brass Cleaning Solution does have citric acid and I use in my rotary tumbler. Note: Very popular substitute formula is squirt of Dawn and x Citric Acid, where x is 1/2 gram to 1 kilo, give or take, approximately, eyeball, ballpark.
Citric Acid is available at Walmart as LemiShine. I bought a bulk one pound jar of Citric Acid on Amazon ~$10, probably overpaid, but LemiShine is more expensive.

[Unclenick]

Originally Posted by Shadow9mm

You need 51g per litre or 1.8oz of citric acid to get a 5% solution.

You got close enough. If we pick nits, and just to illustrate to principle, percentages in chemistry are always by weight of the finished product. 5% is 1/20 of the total weight, So you divide the finished work into 20 parts and make water 19 parts and the citric acid 1 part. In other words, divide your water weight by 19, and that's your citric acid weight. If the volume of the water is one liter and the water is at 4°C ( 39.2°F), your citric acid would be 1000 grams of water weight divided by 19, or 52.6 grams. If the water is at the standard temperature of 25°C (77.0°F), its density drops to 997 grams/liter, so the citric acid drops to 997 grams/19 or 52.5 grams. But the fact is, the cases will never know the difference. Frankford Arsenal was, no doubt, making up a reusable solution for newly annealed cases. I used it in my testing because it made a nice worst-case scenario. But if you are going to throw away the solution when you finish, Hornady's 0.7% ultrasonic solution seems to work. The only other reason I can think of for making the concentration greater would be if your water is very hard. Citric acid softens water by chelating all the calcium and magnesium from the dissolved minerals the same way it does lead, giving off carbon dioxide and water in the case of carbonates. I suppose pH testing would be the way to go there. A little phenolphthalein solution and add acid until the color goes from pink to clear, then add the percent acid you want for solution strength on top of that.

The dull surface left by the acid etching turns darker yellow over time but does not seem to corrode easily. You can polish it to a shine with the usual corncob or walnut media and polishes, but that is for looks. I don't find the dull color hard to see in grass.

[Metal god]

I dry tumble after to not only apply the waxy residue to keep the cases from dulling but it also helps in the sizing process because I don’t lube my pistol cases . Squeaky clean wet tumbled pistol cases are noticeably harder to size then the same cases dry tumbled after with a polish .

[Marco Califo]

Well, after depriming 3,333 cases with dirty hands or nitrile gloves (mostly dirty hands washed often), I am disappointed in ALL wet tumble solutions. I tried F.A. Ultrasonic on the last 1/3 batch, after Dawn & citric acid still left a lot of nasty black residue on my hands.
So, that third big batch (1,667 pieces) still with primers is now tumbling in used corn cob to try to get clean brass to deprime. It is running now

[Unclenick]

Hmmm. Something is off there. My first thought is to try adding more Dawn to keep the loose dirt suspended in the solution.

BTW, did you take the step of tumbling the pins by themselves to get factory dirt and cutter lube off of them? That can make the water pretty black.

[Shadow9mm]

I use the frankford arsenal packets. I know they have a liquid as well. The thing to keep in mind with the packets and probably the liquid is they say i packet for around 500pcs of brass. I have had great results.

[Marco Califo]

The pins have been used around 50 times.
Thir batch was washed with Dawn & citric acid, then again in FA liquid.
This subsequent dry tumble with used media did seem to get the outside of the brass looking touchable. In retrospect, tumbling first in walnut media might have made this easier.
I think a big part of the issue may be that they were very dirty, and, there is so much brass in each if these batches (1,667), so I am pushing a capacity envelope.
I will say I do not ever plan to buy any range brass again.

[Unclenick]

Big quantity and very dirty brass. That makes sense. I agree that you probably would have saved some grief by using a vibratory tumbler to get the loose dirt and mud off first. Many times I've found sand and other dirt in the bottom of my vibratory tumbler when I didn't even realize the brass was all that dirty. No point in putting reacting with limestone in the dirt onto the pin-cleaning solution. It will just wear out faster.

[Marco Califo]

All the dirt seemed to be Gunshot Residue, Primer spray. My best guess is that this military 9mm was collected in an automobile size tote until full. Then, the brass I got was probably in the bottom of the bin, where gravity herded all the residue. No mud or dirt. Just tarnish and black lead looking residue.
Years ago I would use dishwasher powder, or the new solid packs, and hot water. Maybe that was a better crud-cutter.

[Unclenick]

Could be. Another factor may be extra soot and black crud due to flash suppressants and anti-fouling additives.

[ballardw]

Originally Posted by Marco Califo

All the dirt seemed to be Gunshot Residue, Primer spray. My best guess is that this military 9mm was collected in an automobile size tote until full.

Maybe bullet sealant as well? Some military ammo has an asphalt like bullet sealant to protect the powder. Lots of black around the mouth of the case that doesn't wipe off easily might mean this is contributing.

[RoyceP]

I am planning to try a FART then a media tumbler filled with corncob and a bit of metal polish afterwards. Got some 32 WCF cases that have a black spot on one side. I previously cleaned the cases in a Hornady ultrasonic cleaner then the media tumbler. No joy.

[Marco Califo]

You can dry tumble in the FART, too.

[Marco Califo]

Hey MG,
The new photo here is batch #2, that were left out in the garage for 3 days after wet pin tumbling, and picked up a darker hue. I previously called this state "red" or "orange" tarnish after wet pin tumbling. With the flash they do not look bad, however, that batch is now in a dry tumble with lots of corn cob media and NuFinish. Note: these are not Pink, and I do not believe there was any damage to any of my brass in the citric acid solutions.
While I was depriming the 3rd batch of 1,667, I had about five that seemed to rip the primer such that the anvil came out and the flat part of the cup was hanging. Not really surprising as I know these were all crimped in and the degree of resistance varied between individual pieces. I set one of those aside, but cannot locate it now. I fear these were partial deprimes that may have left the ring (now separate from the flat part of the cup). Depriming 5,000 is a chore and I was not going to let anything delay depriming every last one, and keep moving. I am thinking when I process that final batch further and inspecting before priming, I will catch those and discard. For 5 out of 5,000, so what? I have about 10 that are significantly out of round due to treatment mil-spec footwear, that also go into my scrap bucket.

[Metal god]

Yeah they look just fine . Oh how I know what it’s like depriming thousands of cases . Been there do that ! Mostly with 5.56/223 cases though . I like to prep multiple thousands to include sizing , trimming and priming them . This is indeed a long process but when done I now just need to charge , seat and shoot . I then rinse and repeat once that batch is used up .

I just finished prepping 2k 9mm cases . I also prime those before sizing and remove the decapping pin from the sizing die and run the primed cases through my Lee classic turret press .