Legal use of pepper spray?

Kimio · June 4, 2016, 07:52 AM

I was reading an article about how a bunch of protestors continually harassed supporters at a Trump Rally.

In one video, a man was continually harassed as he was leaving, being shoved, and if I'm not mistaken, continually punched at by a mob of punks.

The question I have, is if this person repeatedly told them to leave him alone, and they refused to do so, does he have the right to pull out and utilize pepper spray to fend them off.

Sharkbite · June 4, 2016, 08:07 AM

Yep..

Defensive sprays like OC (pepper spray) are able to be used at a MUCH lower threshhold then a firearm.

Any psyscial assault or EVEN the threat of same, when your assailant has the Abillty, Opportunity and has swown the Intent to assault you, can legally justify the use of OC.

Now, TACTICALLY, that may or may not be the best choice, but from a defensible use of force standpoint, its legal.

kilimanjaro · June 4, 2016, 09:17 AM

In a couple of the attacks, I'm not so sure the use of a firearm would not be warranted : multiple assailants, receiving blows, clearly out of control.

Why the police stood aside for 90 minutes and allowed this to occur needs clearly explained. Failure to separate the two factions was a major error, a dozen people could have been stabbed or badly beaten in one or two minutes of mayhem.

g.willikers · June 4, 2016, 09:50 AM

At close range like that, the pepper spray is probably as likely to affect the defender as anyone else.

benEzra · June 4, 2016, 03:39 PM

Quote:

At close range like that, the pepper spray is probably as likely to affect the defender as anyone else.

A fogger, yes. A splatter stream, maybe. A spray foam or a Kimber Pepper Blaster, very likely not.

rwilson452 · June 4, 2016, 04:06 PM

When I was working as Shore Patrol in the Navy. I had a fellow SP let go with a long blast of pepper spray in a 10X10 room. I wanted to strangle him but he was in as much distress as I was.

Sharkbite · June 4, 2016, 04:59 PM

Yep...indoor usage is a problem. Especially with some spray patterns...fogs

Reloader54 · June 4, 2016, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kimio

I was reading an article about how a bunch of protestors continually harassed supporters at a Trump Rally.

In one video, a man was continually harassed as he was leaving, being shoved, and if I'm not mistaken, continually punched at by a mob of punks.

The question I have, is if this person repeatedly told them to leave him alone, and they refused to do so, does he have the right to pull out and utilize pepper spray to fend them off.

I would say yes. But if he did it might cause more problems for him. Because other protestors might get involved and gang up on him. And if he was also carrying that to might cause some issues as well. The best thing to do is to always be aware of your surroundings and always have a way to avoid these types of issues.

Kimio · June 4, 2016, 07:04 PM

Fair enough assessment there. That did cross my mind, since the use of pepper spray could and likely would escalate the situation beyond just shoving and occasional punching. It's a delicate situation that could easily boil over.

The real question I feel is where were the police during the entire fiasco? Why was it allowed to persist for as long as it did.

I understand they can't be everywhere, but shouldn't this stuff have been planned for in advance? It's pretty clear to anyone who hasn't been living under a rock, that this events are highly controversial and ripe for social unrest events to occur.

Reloader54 · June 4, 2016, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kimio

Fair enough assessment there. That did cross my mind, since the use of pepper spray could and likely would escalate the situation beyond just shoving and occasional punching. It's a delicate situation that could easily boil over.

The real question I feel is where were the police during the entire fiasco? Why was it allowed to persist for as long as it did.

I understand they can't be everywhere, but shouldn't this stuff have been planned for in advance? It's pretty clear to anyone who hasn't been living under a rock, that this events are highly controversial and ripe for social unrest events to occur.

I saw a post from one of the groups I follow on Facebook. And they said that the mayor of the city told the police to stand down and not to get involved because he said that it might cause more problems. And it was also reported that the mayor is also a very big Hillary supporter and donor as well.

kilimanjaro · June 4, 2016, 09:48 PM

The mayor now has a problem, violating the civil rights of the rally attendees. All he had to do was order the groups be kept separate, and he completely failed to do that.

Kimio · June 5, 2016, 06:52 AM

Ah, so the plot thickens, if that information is indeed true. How sad, his political pandering apparently takes priority over the safety of the people.

Buzzcook · June 5, 2016, 01:49 PM

The acceptable use of a non-lethal weapon are pretty much the same as use of a firearm, to stop an assault or when there is a reasonable belief that an assault is about to happen.

Using the Trump rally example veers real close to politics. Reports from both sides are different. One side says the use of pepper spray is justified and the other that it is not.
Who you believe depends more on politics than evidence.

Sharkbite · June 5, 2016, 03:17 PM

Quote:

The acceptable use of a non-lethal weapon are pretty much the same as use of a firearm,

That is just NOT the case. All States (that im aware of) allow the use of defensive sprays at a MUCH lower level of threat then Deadly Force.

T. O'Heir · June 5, 2016, 03:28 PM

"...wanted to strangle him but..." Not issuing the sticks any more? snicker.
Like Kimio says, the real question is where were the cops and Donny's security guys?
"...The mayor now has a problem..." Not unless he ordered the local PD not to do anything about protestors. Hisonner didn't violate anybody's rights otherwise.

Buzzcook · June 5, 2016, 09:20 PM

Quote:

All States (that im aware of) allow the use of defensive sprays at a MUCH lower level of threat then Deadly Force.

Really? The use of deadly force has been up held in property crimes. and not ones own property at that.

So what are the lower standards for pepper spray if assault or fear of assault are too high a standard?

KyJim · June 6, 2016, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Really? The use of deadly force has been up held in property crimes. and not ones own property at that.

Not in my state (Ky.) or a lot of other states.

Sharkbite · June 6, 2016, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Quote:
All States (that im aware of) allow the use of defensive sprays at a MUCH lower level of threat then Deadly Force.
Really? The use of deadly force has been up held in property crimes. and not ones own property at that.

I think that statement needs some more research. Even if LEGALLY acceptable, i cant imaging employing DEADLY force against someone trying to take PROPERTY.

If someone is stealing my lawn mower, killing them seems (at least to me) a bit excessive. Having used (and seen used) deadly force, both in the US and abroad, i could not condone shooting someone over any property

rwilson452 · June 6, 2016, 10:33 PM

I can't say about any other state, but, in PA use of deadly force to protect property is a legal no no. Use of deadly force in PA may only be used in the case of immediate threat of great bodily harm or death.

A stand your ground law was passed a couple of years ago. It is worded such that the assailant must have a weapon of some sort in hand.

June 4, 2016, 07:52 AM	#1
Kimio Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2011 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,171	Legal use of pepper spray? I was reading an article about how a bunch of protestors continually harassed supporters at a Trump Rally. In one video, a man was continually harassed as he was leaving, being shoved, and if I'm not mistaken, continually punched at by a mob of punks. The question I have, is if this person repeatedly told them to leave him alone, and they refused to do so, does he have the right to pull out and utilize pepper spray to fend them off.

June 4, 2016, 09:50 AM	#4
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	At close range like that, the pepper spray is probably as likely to affect the defender as anyone else. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

June 4, 2016, 04:06 PM	#6
rwilson452 Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2004 Location: Tioga co. PA Posts: 2,640	When I was working as Shore Patrol in the Navy. I had a fellow SP let go with a long blast of pepper spray in a 10X10 room. I wanted to strangle him but he was in as much distress as I was. __________________ USNRET '61-'81

June 5, 2016, 03:28 PM	#15
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,292	"...wanted to strangle him but..." Not issuing the sticks any more? snicker. Like Kimio says, the real question is where were the cops and Donny's security guys? "...The mayor now has a problem..." Not unless he ordered the local PD not to do anything about protestors. Hisonner didn't violate anybody's rights otherwise. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

June 6, 2016, 10:33 PM	#19
rwilson452 Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2004 Location: Tioga co. PA Posts: 2,640	I can't say about any other state, but, in PA use of deadly force to protect property is a legal no no. Use of deadly force in PA may only be used in the case of immediate threat of great bodily harm or death. A stand your ground law was passed a couple of years ago. It is worded such that the assailant must have a weapon of some sort in hand. __________________ USNRET '61-'81

June 4, 2016, 08:07 AM	#2
Sharkbite Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2013 Location: Western slope of Colorado Posts: 3,501	Yep.. Defensive sprays like OC (pepper spray) are able to be used at a MUCH lower threshhold then a firearm. Any psyscial assault or EVEN the threat of same, when your assailant has the Abillty, Opportunity and has swown the Intent to assault you, can legally justify the use of OC. Now, TACTICALLY, that may or may not be the best choice, but from a defensible use of force standpoint, its legal.

June 4, 2016, 09:17 AM	#3
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 3,963	In a couple of the attacks, I'm not so sure the use of a firearm would not be warranted : multiple assailants, receiving blows, clearly out of control. Why the police stood aside for 90 minutes and allowed this to occur needs clearly explained. Failure to separate the two factions was a major error, a dozen people could have been stabbed or badly beaten in one or two minutes of mayhem.

June 4, 2016, 04:59 PM	#7
Sharkbite Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2013 Location: Western slope of Colorado Posts: 3,501	Yep...indoor usage is a problem. Especially with some spray patterns...fogs

June 4, 2016, 07:04 PM	#9
Kimio Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2011 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,171	Fair enough assessment there. That did cross my mind, since the use of pepper spray could and likely would escalate the situation beyond just shoving and occasional punching. It's a delicate situation that could easily boil over. The real question I feel is where were the police during the entire fiasco? Why was it allowed to persist for as long as it did. I understand they can't be everywhere, but shouldn't this stuff have been planned for in advance? It's pretty clear to anyone who hasn't been living under a rock, that this events are highly controversial and ripe for social unrest events to occur.

June 4, 2016, 09:48 PM	#11
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 3,963	The mayor now has a problem, violating the civil rights of the rally attendees. All he had to do was order the groups be kept separate, and he completely failed to do that.

June 5, 2016, 06:52 AM	#12
Kimio Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2011 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,171	Ah, so the plot thickens, if that information is indeed true. How sad, his political pandering apparently takes priority over the safety of the people.

June 5, 2016, 01:49 PM	#13
Buzzcook Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2007 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 6,108	The acceptable use of a non-lethal weapon are pretty much the same as use of a firearm, to stop an assault or when there is a reasonable belief that an assault is about to happen. Using the Trump rally example veers real close to politics. Reports from both sides are different. One side says the use of pepper spray is justified and the other that it is not. Who you believe depends more on politics than evidence.

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