Cheap Defense Pumps?

DougB · May 8, 2002, 01:42 AM

I have a friend who is interested in getting a short-barreled shotgun for home defense. If a longer barrel were available for hunting and clay targets, so much the better, but that's not a big consideration.

I have a Winchester 1300 Defeneder I like, and I know the Mossbergs are also decent guns. Both of these are available for around $250 or so. My friend may get one of these, but if he could get something in the $175 range, that would be even better. That got me thinking about the really low-end knock-offs I see selling for around $150 or so (dealer cost). Are any of these any good? (We aren't looking for fine finish and pretty wood - just solid and reliable.) If so, which should we look at or avoid? If any of these are really good deals, I might try one myself. Here are some we are considering:

- CD (Charles Daly?) Tactical, 18", 5-shot, $139

- Maverick (by Mossberg) Model 88, 18", 6-shot, $160

- Norinco 18.5" for about $140

- Baikal or other Russian guns.

I haven't looked closely at any of these. Any comments, experiences, or recommendations will be appreciated.

Doug

Dave McC · May 8, 2002, 04:54 AM

A defensive firearm is no place to cut corners, IMO.However,the nation's filled with inexpensive, reliable pump guns.

Instead of cheap knockoffs, look for police turnins. Most depts cycle their artillery every 10 years, and a cruiser gun is oft ravaged on the outside, near new inside.

Probably 90% of all police shotguns are 870s. The Ithaca 37,the Mossie 500 and some older Winnies comprise the rest. All are excellent HD weapons, and usually available for less than $200 or so.

As cost conscious as police depts are, you'll note that none of your choices above are used by any depts. There's a lesson there.

Two of my 870s started out as agency shotguns. Both will outlast me by generations. Neither cost much.

HTH...

Coronach · May 8, 2002, 11:51 AM

To echo Dave-

Police trade-ins are usually good bargains. They look like hell but often function flawlessly. I picked up a used cruiser 870 with piss-poor wood and nice metal for about $150. The action is ohhhhhhh-sooooo-smooth.

It eventually broke an ejector spring, but that was a simple fix.

Mike

C.R.Sam · May 8, 2002, 01:32 PM

Good gun used can be inexpensive.
Marginal gun new for same price is cheap.

Cheap gun for defending cheap life ?

Or....pay attention to Dave, he speak true.

Sam

Dave R · May 8, 2002, 03:05 PM

The main thing you lose by going to an off=brand like Bailkal or Norinco, is the ability to get that 2nd hunting barrel. Which is a great idea.

If you get a used Rem 879/Win 1300/Mossy 835, you can pick up a 2nd drop-in barrel for $100-$250.

Oddly enough, Mossberg makes an 18" cylider bore barrel for the Rem 870 for $85 at Cabelas. If it were me, I'd get a used Rem 870 (I did--for $150) in a hunting configuration, then get that $85 home defense barrel. Two guns in one.

dfaugh · May 8, 2002, 08:05 PM

I bought my 20", 8 shot Mossberg "Special Purpose" at Dunhams, on sale for about $200 IRCC....I added folder/pistol grip to make it more compact, but it was great as I bought it...A little more firepower than most, in reliable package (The only shotguns I've ever owned were all Mossberg 500 variants...30+ years, not one mechanical problem, exect I broke firing pin(in my dads, actually) when I was 14, dry firing)...first one was a used 20 guage 500, many thousands of rounds through that one)

Mannlicher · May 8, 2002, 08:59 PM

I think Dave McC has it right. A used quality pump is as inexpensive as one of the cheap imports. The quality is MUCH better too.

I never understood the mindset that wants the weapon one would depend on for saving your bacon to be the cheapest one.
I spend the most money on my defensive guns, because the purpose is to save MY bacon. lol

DougB · May 9, 2002, 12:38 AM

Thanks for the comments guys. I think what most of you are saying makes sense - he probably would be better off with a Mossberg, Winchester, or Remington.

Still, the comments to the effect that "you shouldn't look for a bargain in a self defense gun" seem a little funny to me. Why, then, do you guys buy those cheap $250 Mossberg and Winchester guns? By your logic, you should only consider a $600 Benelli or Beretta - after all, it's to protect you life, right? Oh, but you say your Mossberg is 100% reliable and costs a lot less. Fine. I asked if any of these other really low-end brands are also reliable. I certainly wouldn't recommend one if they aren't. But I have some cheap Makarov pistols and AK rifles that are VERY reliable. I don't think low cost and even poor finish necessarily disqualify a gun from being a good self-defense choice.

I would still like to hear from someone who actually owns or has had experience with these cheap guns. I really won't be surprised if they aren't worth having, but sometimes you do find a bargain.

Doug

norielX · May 9, 2002, 03:30 AM

I've been on a SG buying frenzy as of late, and I just picked up a used 870 express mag that was pretty much set up the way I wanted for home defense!!! $199 got me a 20" bbl with rifle sights, rifle choke (didn't want this, but it was a bonus), wood furniture that was painted black by previous owner, and a sling with QD mounts!

It pays to keep checkin you local gun store! I beat my brother to this gun, as we would have bought it as well. I should have let him have it as he may be getting a winchester instead...

But yeah, I'd look around for some used shotguns. This one looked like it hadn't even been fired! I mean, the owner must have fired some slugs, didn't like the recoil, and then sold it. Most shotguns I see are still pretty new inside.

Dave McC · May 9, 2002, 04:44 AM

Doug, I have no $500-1K defensive shotguns because the 870s are the most gun for ANY money.
In a lifetime of shooting them personally and professionally,maybe 50K rounds and near zero glitches.

If I HAD to pay $500 up for a weapon that could feed and protect my family for generations, I would, but I don't have to.

Of the cheapies you mention, all are made outside the US. Yeah,the Maverick is JUST outside in Mexico, but it still is subject to the shifts and changes of international politics and trade.

Warranty work on foreign stuff can be a cruel joke, ask me sometime why I don't have any of the excellent little Llama 22 pocket autos anymore.

ThePatriot29 · May 9, 2002, 10:03 PM

How would one find a police turn in shotgun? Just cruising a local gun show? I'm planning on buying a pump gun in a month and a half, and would love a 870. Reliability is all that matters, looks don't.

C.R.Sam · May 9, 2002, 10:55 PM

Doug.....cheap and inexpensive are seperate terms as applied here. Most Maks are inexpensive and far from cheap....well made and durable.

Some of the really low end guns are actually rather expensive in the ong run. Failures in sport cost wins. Failures in defense of life costs lives.

Two of my kids make bucks with high end shotguns, some of which I would never trust for defense.

I have owned shotguns that cost as much as a good car. Some were worth it. Most of the bucks went for appearance and fit. They were gaming tools.

(Most) ex cop shotguns are stone reliable. They are inexpensive because you are not paying for premium wood and exquisite hand workmanship. Plus the normal lack of finish helps lower the price.

Sam

Dave McC · May 10, 2002, 03:52 AM

Patriot, gun shows are not the best place to find deals. Call around to the shops and find out which ones handle local police dept inventory turnins.

Also check the bulletin board at your local ranges. And if you're living in one of the states where private transactions between two law abiding citizens can buy or sell guns to each other w/o governmental interference, your newpaper ads.

Tropical Z · May 12, 2002, 12:49 PM

A local store was clearing out Brolin (yf-12"s?) for $99.00 and i bought one on a lark.It is nicely built,has beautiful bluing and shoots reliably and nice.The only problem is its thin stain on the wood-you barely bump it,and your down to bare wood.

P.S. i also have a Baikal IZH-18 break action,single shot 12 gauge that is a great single shot and built like a tank.I am bringing in the 12 gauge Baikal SxS with 28" barrel that CDNN has for $189.00

fed168 · May 12, 2002, 10:53 PM

Novas can be had in my area for $245 with rifle sights...

CMichael · May 15, 2002, 12:49 PM

I got a 12 gauge 20" Mossberg Persuader. I am very happy with it.

I will also soon get a 28" barrel which will used when I do trap and skeet shooting. The barrel I believe is $109 plus shipping from Mossberg.

Michael

CMichael · May 15, 2002, 12:51 PM

One more thing my Persuader had the extended magazine so I have 7+1 capacity.

May 8, 2002, 01:42 AM	#1
DougB Senior Member Join Date: July 2, 1999 Posts: 838	Cheap Defense Pumps? I have a friend who is interested in getting a short-barreled shotgun for home defense. If a longer barrel were available for hunting and clay targets, so much the better, but that's not a big consideration. I have a Winchester 1300 Defeneder I like, and I know the Mossbergs are also decent guns. Both of these are available for around $250 or so. My friend may get one of these, but if he could get something in the $175 range, that would be even better. That got me thinking about the really low-end knock-offs I see selling for around $150 or so (dealer cost). Are any of these any good? (We aren't looking for fine finish and pretty wood - just solid and reliable.) If so, which should we look at or avoid? If any of these are really good deals, I might try one myself. Here are some we are considering: - CD (Charles Daly?) Tactical, 18", 5-shot, $139 - Maverick (by Mossberg) Model 88, 18", 6-shot, $160 - Norinco 18.5" for about $140 - Baikal or other Russian guns. I haven't looked closely at any of these. Any comments, experiences, or recommendations will be appreciated. Doug

May 8, 2002, 11:51 AM	#3
Coronach Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 1999 Posts: 3,147	To echo Dave- Police trade-ins are usually good bargains. They look like hell but often function flawlessly. I picked up a used cruiser 870 with piss-poor wood and nice metal for about $150. The action is ohhhhhhh-sooooo-smooth. It eventually broke an ejector spring, but that was a simple fix. Mike __________________ The axe bites into the door, ripping a hole in one panel. The maniac puts his face into the hole, cackling gleefully, "Here's Johnny...erk." "And here's Smith and Wesson," murmurs Coronach, Mozambiquing six rounds of .357 into the critter at a range of three feet. -Lawdog "True pacifism is the finest form of manliness. But if a man comes up to you and cuts your hand off, you don't just offer him the other one. Not if you want to go on playing the piano, you don't." -Sam Peckinpah "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein

May 8, 2002, 03:05 PM	#5
Dave R Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2000 Location: Idaho Posts: 6,073	The main thing you lose by going to an off=brand like Bailkal or Norinco, is the ability to get that 2nd hunting barrel. Which is a great idea. If you get a used Rem 879/Win 1300/Mossy 835, you can pick up a 2nd drop-in barrel for $100-$250. Oddly enough, Mossberg makes an 18" cylider bore barrel for the Rem 870 for $85 at Cabelas. If it were me, I'd get a used Rem 870 (I did--for $150) in a hunting configuration, then get that $85 home defense barrel. Two guns in one. __________________ I am Pro-Rights (on gun issues).

May 8, 2002, 08:05 PM	#6
dfaugh Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2002 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 1,715	I bought my 20", 8 shot Mossberg "Special Purpose" at Dunhams, on sale for about $200 IRCC....I added folder/pistol grip to make it more compact, but it was great as I bought it...A little more firepower than most, in reliable package (The only shotguns I've ever owned were all Mossberg 500 variants...30+ years, not one mechanical problem, exect I broke firing pin(in my dads, actually) when I was 14, dry firing)...first one was a used 20 guage 500, many thousands of rounds through that one) __________________ "If you Listen to Fools, the Mob Rules" "No one has the answer, but one thing is true. You'e got to turn on evil, when its coming after you. You've gotta face it down,and when it tries to hide, you've got to go in after it, and never be denied. Time is running out...Let's roll. Let's roll for freedom, let's roll for love. We're going after satan, on the wings of a dove. Let's roll for freedom, let's roll for truth. Let's not let our children grow up fearful in their youth."

May 8, 2002, 08:59 PM	#7
Mannlicher Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2001 Location: North Central Florida & Miami Posts: 3,209	I think Dave McC has it right. A used quality pump is as inexpensive as one of the cheap imports. The quality is MUCH better too. I never understood the mindset that wants the weapon one would depend on for saving your bacon to be the cheapest one. I spend the most money on my defensive guns, because the purpose is to save MY bacon. lol __________________ Nemo Me Impune Lacesset "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan

May 8, 2002, 04:54 AM	#2
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	A defensive firearm is no place to cut corners, IMO.However,the nation's filled with inexpensive, reliable pump guns. Instead of cheap knockoffs, look for police turnins. Most depts cycle their artillery every 10 years, and a cruiser gun is oft ravaged on the outside, near new inside. Probably 90% of all police shotguns are 870s. The Ithaca 37,the Mossie 500 and some older Winnies comprise the rest. All are excellent HD weapons, and usually available for less than $200 or so. As cost conscious as police depts are, you'll note that none of your choices above are used by any depts. There's a lesson there. Two of my 870s started out as agency shotguns. Both will outlast me by generations. Neither cost much. HTH...

May 8, 2002, 01:32 PM	#4
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Good gun used can be inexpensive. Marginal gun new for same price is cheap. Cheap gun for defending cheap life ? Or....pay attention to Dave, he speak true. Sam

May 9, 2002, 12:38 AM	#8
DougB Senior Member Join Date: July 2, 1999 Posts: 838	Thanks for the comments guys. I think what most of you are saying makes sense - he probably would be better off with a Mossberg, Winchester, or Remington. Still, the comments to the effect that "you shouldn't look for a bargain in a self defense gun" seem a little funny to me. Why, then, do you guys buy those cheap $250 Mossberg and Winchester guns? By your logic, you should only consider a $600 Benelli or Beretta - after all, it's to protect you life, right? Oh, but you say your Mossberg is 100% reliable and costs a lot less. Fine. I asked if any of these other really low-end brands are also reliable. I certainly wouldn't recommend one if they aren't. But I have some cheap Makarov pistols and AK rifles that are VERY reliable. I don't think low cost and even poor finish necessarily disqualify a gun from being a good self-defense choice. I would still like to hear from someone who actually owns or has had experience with these cheap guns. I really won't be surprised if they aren't worth having, but sometimes you do find a bargain. Doug

May 9, 2002, 03:30 AM	#9
norielX Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 164	Yep listen to Dave.... I've been on a SG buying frenzy as of late, and I just picked up a used 870 express mag that was pretty much set up the way I wanted for home defense!!! $199 got me a 20" bbl with rifle sights, rifle choke (didn't want this, but it was a bonus), wood furniture that was painted black by previous owner, and a sling with QD mounts! It pays to keep checkin you local gun store! I beat my brother to this gun, as we would have bought it as well. I should have let him have it as he may be getting a winchester instead... But yeah, I'd look around for some used shotguns. This one looked like it hadn't even been fired! I mean, the owner must have fired some slugs, didn't like the recoil, and then sold it. Most shotguns I see are still pretty new inside. __________________ -- norielX

May 9, 2002, 04:44 AM	#10
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Doug, I have no $500-1K defensive shotguns because the 870s are the most gun for ANY money. In a lifetime of shooting them personally and professionally,maybe 50K rounds and near zero glitches. If I HAD to pay $500 up for a weapon that could feed and protect my family for generations, I would, but I don't have to. Of the cheapies you mention, all are made outside the US. Yeah,the Maverick is JUST outside in Mexico, but it still is subject to the shifts and changes of international politics and trade. Warranty work on foreign stuff can be a cruel joke, ask me sometime why I don't have any of the excellent little Llama 22 pocket autos anymore.

May 9, 2002, 10:03 PM	#11
ThePatriot29 Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2001 Location: Virginia Posts: 120	How would one find a police turn in shotgun? Just cruising a local gun show? I'm planning on buying a pump gun in a month and a half, and would love a 870. Reliability is all that matters, looks don't.

May 9, 2002, 10:55 PM	#12
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Doug.....cheap and inexpensive are seperate terms as applied here. Most Maks are inexpensive and far from cheap....well made and durable. Some of the really low end guns are actually rather expensive in the ong run. Failures in sport cost wins. Failures in defense of life costs lives. Two of my kids make bucks with high end shotguns, some of which I would never trust for defense. I have owned shotguns that cost as much as a good car. Some were worth it. Most of the bucks went for appearance and fit. They were gaming tools. (Most) ex cop shotguns are stone reliable. They are inexpensive because you are not paying for premium wood and exquisite hand workmanship. Plus the normal lack of finish helps lower the price. Sam

May 10, 2002, 03:52 AM	#13
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Patriot, gun shows are not the best place to find deals. Call around to the shops and find out which ones handle local police dept inventory turnins. Also check the bulletin board at your local ranges. And if you're living in one of the states where private transactions between two law abiding citizens can buy or sell guns to each other w/o governmental interference, your newpaper ads.

May 12, 2002, 12:49 PM	#14
Tropical Z Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2000 Location: Atlantis Posts: 1,683	A local store was clearing out Brolin (yf-12"s?) for $99.00 and i bought one on a lark.It is nicely built,has beautiful bluing and shoots reliably and nice.The only problem is its thin stain on the wood-you barely bump it,and your down to bare wood. P.S. i also have a Baikal IZH-18 break action,single shot 12 gauge that is a great single shot and built like a tank.I am bringing in the 12 gauge Baikal SxS with 28" barrel that CDNN has for $189.00 __________________ FREEDOM IS NEVER FREE!!!!!!!

May 12, 2002, 10:53 PM	#15
fed168 Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2000 Posts: 1,040	Novas can be had in my area for $245 with rifle sights...

May 15, 2002, 12:49 PM	#16
CMichael Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2001 Location: MI Posts: 1,516	I got a 12 gauge 20" Mossberg Persuader. I am very happy with it. I will also soon get a 28" barrel which will used when I do trap and skeet shooting. The barrel I believe is $109 plus shipping from Mossberg. Michael

May 15, 2002, 12:51 PM	#17
CMichael Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2001 Location: MI Posts: 1,516	One more thing my Persuader had the extended magazine so I have 7+1 capacity.